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UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who is your preferred Conservative Party leadership candidate?

Gove
4
5%
Hunt
7
9%
Javid
6
8%
Johnson
18
23%
Raab
9
11%
Stewart
36
45%
 
Total votes : 80

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 30, 2019 3:51 pm

Of the top 5 candidates, 3 are white males and 2 are ethnic minority males.

Which means whites are underrepresented there. If you limit it to the top 4, they're still slightly underrepresented (by about 5%) but it's as close as you can get without hundreds of candidates.

For male, you've got the issue that we just had a woman prime minister, but beyond that there's the usual feminist fuck up of assuming that the issue of women being "Underrepresented" at the top is due to sexism against them, rather than sexism against men. (Women have more freedom to choose work-life balance, as such, more of them do so. Because of this, men end up working unhealthy hours more often and in higher numbers than those who would willingly choose to do so. Those extra hours result in being promoted more often to these levels.).

Notably, Theresa May does not have children. That was one reason she did not choose work-life balance as opposed to being a workaholic.
Just saying.

When men choose work-life balance, they end up worse off than women making the same choice.

To fix this issue in feminist terms, cut womens pay in half if they dare to take maternity leave at any point in their career, but give men 90% of their pay if they do.

Then promote people based on time spent at the office. Apparently, this would mean you are oppressing the men. :roll:

In the same way companies offer better wages in order to compete for talent, when it comes to women, they offer better maternity leave benefits. Whereas men are usually stuck at the statutory minimum (Which itself is lower for men compared to women.).

Imagine offering women minimum wage no matter what, and offering men higher pay based on talent and so on, and then turning around and being like "The men are oppressed.".
You'd think the person saying that was a lunatic, right?
Welcome to my world.

This same dynamic applies to politics.
People will tolerate a woman taking time off. They won't tolerate a guy doing the same.
Then when it comes time to make a decision on who should lead or run for office, well who has more name recognition? Who accomplished more? And so on.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 30, 2019 4:01 pm, edited 8 times in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Platypus Bureaucracy
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Postby Platypus Bureaucracy » Thu May 30, 2019 3:51 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
San Lumen wrote:Thats not what I said. To clarify when I said dangerous person I was referring to Boris Johnson. I did not mean all white people are dangerous.

Then why didnt you say Boris Johnson? Thats a very important piece of context information when you make a statement like that, because as far as i am concerned the only way to read that statement without that context is you referring to white people alone.

Your reading is straight up wrong. God knows, San Lumen is bad at communicating, but in this case he's right. That's not what he said. As in, there's no way to correctly read this information to come to the conclusion that he was referring to white people in general as dangerous.

Look. We've got:

a) the four people who could realistically be PM are all white men
b) the PM could very well be "one of the most dangerous people in the UK"

So, since the "very well" bit means there remains a possibility of it not being the most dangerous person, the category "most dangerous people" cannot include all four candidates. And since all the candidates are white men, he is by necessity not saying that all white men=the most dangerous people in the UK.

I know I'm being a bit pedantic here, but if you're going to insist on telling someone that they said something offensive, you'd better be damn sure they said that. You're being a bit of a snowflake here. Very eager to take offence.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Thu May 30, 2019 3:57 pm

Conserative Morality wrote:"It's not time yet" is a tactic used by reactionaries in every era. "It's not time for democracy, it's not time for capitalism, it's not time for emancipation." Of course it's not time. It's never time, not on its own. You make it time. If you're under fire in the no-man's land of WW1, you start digging a foxhole even if the ideal time would be when you *aren't* being bombarded, because once you wait for it to be 'time', other situations will need your attention, assuming you survive that long. If the fields aren't furrowed, plow them. If the iron is not hot, make it so. If society is not ready, change it.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 30, 2019 3:58 pm



You can't link to pornhub on these forums mate.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 30, 2019 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Platypus Bureaucracy
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Postby Platypus Bureaucracy » Thu May 30, 2019 4:00 pm

5 kingdoms of Britannia wrote:
Platypus Bureaucracy wrote:I mean, it's not of immediate relevance to Brexit or anything, but the white maleness of the field could be worth discussing in the same way it might be worth discussing that two out of four of them went to public school. If a given demographic is disproportionately represented in a field (or in prisons, or among people suffering from mental illness, or in big budget sci-fi films or whatever) it might just be worth discussing, because, I dunno, maybe there's some kind of systemic injustice causing that.

Although, on a side note, while Raab is white, his father was Jewish, so he is arguably part of an ethnic minority. There is a little nuance here, but we can't exactly discuss that if you start swearing your head off the moment someone says the words "white" and "man".

I suggest not mentioning race or class cause it does rub off as a little... socialist , because should we not be judged on one ability not wealth or class... that was a very long winded way of saying we need to make a meritocracy

Oh, God, really? I'm so embarrassed; I really didn't want to come off as socialist.

Ugh, now you've got me worried. Do you think my Labour Party membership makes me look socialist as well? Might have to cancel it.
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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Thu May 30, 2019 4:03 pm



Assuming the actual election ends up like that, how the heck is anyone putting together a working coalition?
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 30, 2019 4:04 pm

Novus America wrote:


Assuming the actual election ends up like that, how the heck is anyone putting together a working coalition?


Labour - Lib Dem.

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Dresderstan
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Postby Dresderstan » Thu May 30, 2019 4:08 pm

Novus America wrote:


Assuming the actual election ends up like that, how the heck is anyone putting together a working coalition?

I would say a left wing coalition of the Lib-Lab pact, but I hate imagining the Lib Dems back in power, same with Labour, but if that could be one coalition outcome. And it's just with FPTP, they even have a PR version which I could see the Lib-Lab pact with the Greens and Change UK.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 30, 2019 4:08 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Assuming the actual election ends up like that, how the heck is anyone putting together a working coalition?


Labour - Lib Dem.


Lib-LAB-SNP

Is most likely imo.

1. Cancel Brexit/Referendum
2. Abolish FPTP
3. General Election

I saw someone suggest Lib Dem - Brex

Which would be hilarious. That would once and for all confirm our country is fucked in the head and nobody knows what to do.

Just imagine it. Lib Dem leaders come out to tell a furious crowd that they didn't win a majority and so have to compromise with other parties, and then the two enter negotiations on how to handle Brexit, and just piss away yet another extension.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 30, 2019 4:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 30, 2019 4:11 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Labour - Lib Dem.


Lib-LAB-SNP

Is most likely imo.

1. Cancel Brexit/Referendum
2. Abolish FPTP
3. General Election

I saw someone suggest Lib Dem - Brex

Which would be hilarious. That would once and for all confirm our country is fucked in the head and nobody knows what to do.


Change the map to PR system and see why that coalition wouldn't touch 2 with a barge pole.
Last edited by Fartsniffage on Thu May 30, 2019 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 30, 2019 4:13 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Lib-LAB-SNP

Is most likely imo.

1. Cancel Brexit/Referendum
2. Abolish FPTP
3. General Election

I saw someone suggest Lib Dem - Brex

Which would be hilarious. That would once and for all confirm our country is fucked in the head and nobody knows what to do.


Change the map to PR system and see why that coalition wouldn't touch 3 with a barge pole.


Because they'd have to invite the greens in too?
It's not really that different.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 30, 2019 4:15 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Change the map to PR system and see why that coalition wouldn't touch 3 with a barge pole.


Because they'd have to invite the greens in too?
It's not really that different.


Brexit party wins. They get first chance to create the new government.

And I edited from 3 to 2. because that was what I meant.
Last edited by Fartsniffage on Thu May 30, 2019 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 30, 2019 4:16 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Because they'd have to invite the greens in too?
It's not really that different.


Brexit party wins. They get first chance to create the new government.

And I edited from 3 to 2. because that was what I meant.


The incumbent gets the first chance to create the new government, not the one with most seats. Remember Gordon Brown?

The only reason i'm not entertaining that result here under either system until after Lib-Lab-SNP is elected is the Tories would be a double-digit party and nobody would take them seriously if they even attempted to pretend they could form a government, since they would be the minority partner in any arrangement. (at least with Brown, it was the smaller of the two major parties trying to find a minority partner.).

They would technically have the right to try, but who would take them seriously?
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 30, 2019 4:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 30, 2019 4:18 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Brexit party wins. They get first chance to create the new government.

And I edited from 3 to 2. because that was what I meant.


The incumbent gets the first chance to create the new government, not the one with most seats. Remember Gordon Brown?


Actually, no. I'm apparently wrong about that. Sorry.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 30, 2019 4:19 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
The incumbent gets the first chance to create the new government, not the one with most seats. Remember Gordon Brown?


Actually, no. I'm apparently wrong about that. Sorry.


It's alright, it's a ridiculous system and not intuitive.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 30, 2019 4:20 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Actually, no. I'm apparently wrong about that. Sorry.


It's alright, it's a ridiculous system and not intuitive.


Maybe, but I have a BA in Politics... :blush:

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 30, 2019 4:20 pm

The real danger is, would the Lib Dems cuck the country again and join a Con-BREX coalition if they got promised a referendum on ATV, a discussion on house of lords reform, and a pat on the head from the Tory Prime minister for saving everyone from the dangers of socialism.

"We'll just put out a video telling remainers we're sorry. It'll be fine.".
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 30, 2019 4:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 30, 2019 4:21 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:The real danger is, would the Lib Dems cuck the country again and join a Con-BREX coalition if they got promised a referendum on ATV and a pat on the head from the Tory Prime minister.

"We'll just put out a video telling remainers we're sorry. It'll be fine.".


Not a chance. The student loans debacle is still very current.

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 30, 2019 4:23 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:The real danger is, would the Lib Dems cuck the country again and join a Con-BREX coalition if they got promised a referendum on ATV and a pat on the head from the Tory Prime minister.

"We'll just put out a video telling remainers we're sorry. It'll be fine.".


Not a chance. The student loans debacle is still very current.


Idk man. They're Liberals. Every fiber of my being Is telling me they'll sooner side with the Tories than a socialist.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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San Lumen
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Postby San Lumen » Thu May 30, 2019 4:24 pm


I dont see how anyone gets a working coalition with a map like that.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 30, 2019 4:25 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Not a chance. The student loans debacle is still very current.


Idk man. They're Liberals. Every fiber of my being Is telling me they'll sooner side with the Tories than a socialist.


Brexit is what matter right now. And Corbyn is slightly more pro EU than Rees-Mogg. I think they'd go that way, at least in the short term.

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Novus America
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Postby Novus America » Thu May 30, 2019 4:28 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Assuming the actual election ends up like that, how the heck is anyone putting together a working coalition?


Labour - Lib Dem.


Considering how far apart they are on economic issues and even Brexit (Lib Dema clearly against, Labour desperately trying not to make real decision I do not think that is an easy coalition to actually pass something with a majority.
Especially with voters being so volatile and willing to jump ship.
Too much compromise (possibly much at all) means you lose a big chunk of your voters.

There is still a substantial anti Brexit portion in the Labour Party to deal with.

A Lib Dem Labour coalition could see them simply switch to Brexit Party.

That is not even getting into the economic issues.
Corbyn knows he needs to push through major changes for his base, if he compromises on that the far left of his party jumps to the Greens.

Plus the real possibility Corbyn tries an economic policy contrary to the EU rules. Corbyn realizes his economic promises and staying in the EU is very difficult.
Many of his supporters think the can eat his nationalization cake and keep the EU too.
What happens when the realize the two might be irreconcilable?
Which do they choose?
Last edited by Novus America on Thu May 30, 2019 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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San Lumen
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby San Lumen » Thu May 30, 2019 4:34 pm

Novus America wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Labour - Lib Dem.


Considering how far apart they are on economic issues and even Brexit (Lib Dema clearly against, Labour desperately trying not to make real decision I do not think that is an easy coalition to actually pass something with a majority.
Especially with voters being so volatile and willing to jump ship.
Too much compromise (possibly much at all) means you lose a big chunk of your voters.

There is still a substantial anti Brexit portion in the Labour Party to deal with.

A Lib Dem Labour coalition could see them simply switch to Brexit Party.

That is not even getting into the economic issues.
Corbyn knows he needs to push through major changes for his base, if he compromises on that the far left of his party jumps to the Greens.

Plus the real possibility Corbyn tries an economic policy contrary to the EU rules. Corbyn realizes his economic promises and staying in the EU is very difficult.
Many of his supporters think the can eat his nationalization cake and keep the EU too.
What happens when the realize the two might be irreconcilable?
Which do they choose?

I dont see how any party is forming a coalition based on current polling much less getting a majority

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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu May 30, 2019 4:36 pm

Novus America wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
Labour - Lib Dem.


Considering how far apart they are on economic issues and even Brexit (Lib Dema clearly against, Labour desperately trying not to make real decision I do not think that is an easy coalition to actually pass something with a majority.
Especially with voters being so volatile and willing to jump ship.
Too much compromise (possibly much at all) means you lose a big chunk of your voters.

There is still a substantial anti Brexit portion in the Labour Party to deal with.

A Lib Dem Labour coalition could see them simply switch to Brexit Party.

That is not even getting into the economic issues.
Corbyn knows he needs to push through major changes for his base, if he compromises on that the far left of his party jumps to the Greens.


Labour is coming out in favor of a second referendum after the EU election.

As for economic issues, that's a bigger issue, but it'd probably be workable if the reforms are focused on certain areas like education and welfare rather than rail and rent.

LD's and Labour overlap on social democracy like education, environment, NHS and so on. Its Labour being all "And we should nationalize the railways and do land reform and tax landlords, as well as set up a public bank" and so on where the LDs would disagree.

So they either do a government where they just do the shit they agree on, or they start trading issue for issue on shit they disagree on. For LDs that's going to be stuff like;

"Don't spy on the population and what the fuck is all this police state nonsense"

and for Labour that's going to be;

"Can we just eat SOME of the rich?"

If I was Corbyn i'd go for the LD coalition, act all "Oh noes the silly libs are making me deconstruct the police state sorry authoritarians in my own party who push this shit in collaboration with the Tories, oh well!" and in exchange i'd get the Lib Dems to be all; "Oh noes, those rascal socialists in the Labour party are making us close all the overseas territories tax havens. Sorry all you neoliberal types."

So it'd be a coalition of shit we agree on, and shit we secretly agree on but can't admit openly because the barbarians are inside the walls so to speak.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Thu May 30, 2019 4:40 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Do you remember the 2012 election where Mitt Romney said Russia was the biggest threat to world peace and Obama and the Democratic establishment mocked him, mere years before they began arguing they had allowed US sovereignty to be usurped on their watch by Russia and this is why the other side was unfit to govern?
That's alright, neither do they apparently.

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Fartsniffage
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Posts: 31079
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Thu May 30, 2019 4:38 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48468241

And now there are 12th. One more and we get to have a dinner then crucify one of them, as is the law.

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