UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

^ @Xenopolis, i m not British, so it is plausible others entitled to better answer you.

thought, i can say you, historically, brits liberals and radicals have been more sympathethic with having a role in european union, than brits labours and convervatives.

That makes sense.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Because staying in the EU is the best thing for the country economically, and also offers better social protections.

Social protections? After things like Article 13, I doubt that.

Everything from workers' rights to safety standards.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

Social protections? After things like Article 13, I doubt that.

Everything from workers' rights to safety standards.

Rights and standards which would probably be handled better if left to individual nations, or better yet, individual states.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Everything from workers' rights to safety standards.

Rights and standards which would probably be handled better if left to individual nations, or better yet, individual states.

If Brexit happens they will both be worse in the UK, so no.

[Thermodolia]

Rights and standards which would probably be handled better if left to individual nations, or better yet, individual states.

If Brexit happens they will both be worse in the UK, so no.

Break up of UK here we come!!

[Chan Island]

The Liberal Democrats are a socially liberal but economically conservative third party that traditionally has always been the party of protest in the UK (backed in part by taking radical stances on constitutional questions like the electoral system and the house of lords). That status died though when in 2010 they entered a coalition with the Conservative party and during the coalition voted for a rise in university tuition fees (the single biggest promise they had in 2010).

In 2015 they were almost wiped out but have have since been making big gains being the most unapologetically pro-EU party (though that status now is contested with 2 other parties) in the parliament. Currently their leader is Vince Cable, who was the business secretary during the 2010-15 coalition government (though he has announced plans to retire).

I don't understand. If they're fiscally conservative but socially liberal, why are they the most pro-EU party there is?

Because the European Union is both fundamentally a capitalist project that encourages free trade (something they like) and because the Union places many protections (or at least minimums) for things like human rights. Article 13 (which you mention later) is just one article in one law, it's far and away not the sum total of the EU.

Also, those things would be extremely vulnerable in the UK on their own. The Labour party openly wishes to nationalise several utilities (something the LDs oppose) but know that the EU places restrictions on the ability to nationalise things. Meanwhile the Conservative party openly talks about how great it would be to repeal the humans right act. And both main parties have been warming to various forms of protectionism, which isn't exactly fiscally conservative.

Also, it's long been the liberal dream to have close links with Europe generally. The continent already does many constitutional things that they like, for example run elections via proportional representation, and many of them calculate that these goals are more likely to be achieved if we remain in the EU.

[Novus America]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... bined-poll
Latest poll has Brexit party 13 points ahead of Labour.

[Ifreann]

Have the Brexit party released a manifesto yet, or they still planning to see if they get elected first?

[Chan Island]

Have the Brexit party released a manifesto yet, or they still planning to see if they get elected first?

A manifesto would be an active detriment, because then they would have to put in actual policies about Brexit that would be subject to reality. As it stands, they can just pretend to be for whatever Brexit you just happen to be for. So the latter, definitely.

[Hirota]

Have the Brexit party released a manifesto yet, or they still planning to see if they get elected first?

If having a manifesto was a prerequisite for standing in elections, then neither the Tories or the SNP should be standing either. And whilst I suspect you would not be too unhappy at that, I'm sure the Scots might be.

[Ifreann]

Have the Brexit party released a manifesto yet, or they still planning to see if they get elected first?

If having a manifesto was a prerequisite for standing in elections, then neither the Tories or the SNP should be standing either. And whilst I suspect you would not be too unhappy at that, I'm sure the Scots might be.

I imagine they'd be happier if the SNP wrote a manifesto.

[Philjia]

Have the Brexit party released a manifesto yet, or they still planning to see if they get elected first?

If having a manifesto was a prerequisite for standing in elections, then neither the Tories or the SNP should be standing either. And whilst I suspect you would not be too unhappy at that, I'm sure the Scots might be.

The Tories have their 2017 manifesto, and the SNP have a fairly exhaustive list of their policies. The Brexit Party don't have any written list of their policies, even what kind of Brexit they want.

[Novus America]

If having a manifesto was a prerequisite for standing in elections, then neither the Tories or the SNP should be standing either. And whilst I suspect you would not be too unhappy at that, I'm sure the Scots might be.

The Tories have their 2017 manifesto, and the SNP have a fairly exhaustive list of their policies. The Brexit Party don't have any written list of their policies, even what kind of Brexit they want.

The are just a protest party really.
But when both main parties are so rightfully hated that works.
Saying “fuck Labour and the Tories” is all the platform they need to lead in votes.

[Vassenor]

Plus Nigel is just generally an utter [EXPLETIVE REDACTED].

[The New California Republic]

If having a manifesto was a prerequisite for standing in elections, then neither the Tories or the SNP should be standing either. And whilst I suspect you would not be too unhappy at that, I'm sure the Scots might be.

I imagine they'd be happier if the SNP wrote a manifesto.

I am voting Lib Dem as always, because they are the only folk that can keep the SNP out in this area.

[Liriena]

Another striking example of the cultural problem was cologne and the mass rape attacks there, totalling thousands of victims.

Kinda deceitful wording here, dude. There were over a thousand alleged victims of various crimes throughout Germany, of whom almost five hundred had allegedly been the victims of sex-related crimes. And there were allegedly two thousand culprits, although only a handful have been convicted of anything to this date. So you're not outright fabricating anything... but you are being a bit sloppy. Unless you are purposefully trying to exploit the good old "the barbarians are coming to steal your white women" trope to incite xenophobia, that is.

[Liriena]

Another striking example of the cultural problem was cologne and the mass rape attacks there, totalling thousands of victims.

Kinda deceitful wording here, dude. There were over a thousand alleged victims of various crimes throughout Germany, of whom almost five hundred had allegedly been the victims of sex-related crimes. And there were allegedly two thousand culprits, although only a handful have been convicted of anything to this date. So you're not outright fabricating anything... but you are being a bit sloppy. Unless you are purposefully trying to exploit the good old "the barbarians are coming to steal your white women" trope to incite xenophobia, that is.

Also, "cultural problem" seems about alright, although I think it bears pointing out that we're not really talking about the same cultures in both examples you cited, Ostro. The Rotherham gang were mostly British-Pakistani. The perpetrators in Germany seem to have been mostly Moroccan and Algerian, which are definitely not the same thing as British-Pakistani.

[Vassenor]

Another striking example of the cultural problem was cologne and the mass rape attacks there, totalling thousands of victims.

Kinda deceitful wording here, dude. There were over a thousand alleged victims of various crimes throughout Germany, of whom almost five hundred had allegedly been the victims of sex-related crimes. And there were allegedly two thousand culprits, although only a handful have been convicted of anything to this date. So you're not outright fabricating anything... but you are being a bit sloppy. Unless you are purposefully trying to exploit the good old "the barbarians are coming to steal your white women" trope to incite xenophobia, that is.

Especially since, as has been noted, there's nothing being reported about the identity of the people who got nicked.

It just seems like this was meant to be a screed about how we need to treat Muslim men as rapists in general and child rapists in particular until proven otherwise.

And no matter how you slice it that's pretty damn racist and sexist.

[Liriena]

Kinda deceitful wording here, dude. There were over a thousand alleged victims of various crimes throughout Germany, of whom almost five hundred had allegedly been the victims of sex-related crimes. And there were allegedly two thousand culprits, although only a handful have been convicted of anything to this date. So you're not outright fabricating anything... but you are being a bit sloppy. Unless you are purposefully trying to exploit the good old "the barbarians are coming to steal your white women" trope to incite xenophobia, that is.

Especially since, as has been noted, there's nothing being reported about the identity of the people who got nicked.

It just seems like this was meant to be a screed about how we need to treat Muslim men as rapists in general and child rapists in particular until proven otherwise.

And no matter how you slice it that's pretty damn racist and sexist.

I mean, if there's an observable, demonstrable problem on a cultural level in how men in certain communities are taught to perceive women and girls, and how to behave sexually towards them, that's worth addressing. But there is such a thing as too much hand-wringing over the possibility of being prejudiced in one's approach, as an outsider, to that problem.

[Liriena]

Especially since, as has been noted, there's nothing being reported about the identity of the people who got nicked.

It just seems like this was meant to be a screed about how we need to treat Muslim men as rapists in general and child rapists in particular until proven otherwise.

And no matter how you slice it that's pretty damn racist and sexist.

I mean, if there's an observable, demonstrable problem on a cultural level in how men in certain communities are taught to perceive women and girls, and how to behave sexually towards them, that's worth addressing. But there is such a thing as too much hand-wringing over the possibility of being prejudiced in one's approach, as an outsider, to that problem.

Also, while we are at it:

Notably though, none of the Ethnic Germans started doing it.

Ostro, you don't know that. Nobody knows that. Because we don't know the identity of every single man accused of participating in the German incidents. You are assuming that that's the case because that's what every white nationalist and every useful idiot of theirs has tried to condition everyone to assume. Even if that happened to be a likely possibility, which it probably is, you can't try to pass it off as a fact.

I mean, come on dude, what happened to your concern over making judgements with only a preponderance of evidence, rather than beyond reasonable doubt?

[Vassenor]

I mean, if there's an observable, demonstrable problem on a cultural level in how men in certain communities are taught to perceive women and girls, and how to behave sexually towards them, that's worth addressing. But there is such a thing as too much hand-wringing over the possibility of being prejudiced in one's approach, as an outsider, to that problem.

Also, while we are at it:

Notably though, none of the Ethnic Germans started doing it.

Ostro, you don't know that. Nobody knows that. Because we don't know the identity of every single man accused of participating in the German incidents. You are assuming that that's the case because that's what every white nationalist and every useful idiot of theirs has tried to condition everyone to assume. Even if that happened to be a likely possibility, which it probably is, you can't try to pass it off as a fact.

I mean, come on dude, what happened to your concern over making judgements with only a preponderance of evidence, rather than beyond reasonable doubt?

See, when I talked about that being something that only white men got, I thought I was being sarcastic.

[Definitely Not Trumptonium]

lmao look at this shit

27% of the vote welp guess you run the fucking country now

PEOPLE WILL ACTUALLY DEFEND THIS SYSTEM

If the system was PR:
LAB: 176 (-70)
BREX: 130 (+130)
CON: 124 (-189)
LDEM: 91 (+80)
CHUK: 46 (+46)
GRN: 33 (+32)
SNP: 30 (-5)
UKIP: 20 (+22)

Now if I had more polling data, one that includes all parties running I could estimate a bit better.

Under this system a pro-Brexit government is impossible. The only two governments I see are LAB-LDEM-GRN-SNP with 330 or LAB-LDEM-CUK-GRN with 346

Not really, a large wing of the Labour Party is pro-Brexit, either soft or hard. The only reason that we still have Brexit despite the 20/30 or so Tory MPs who are rebelling against it is that there are 40 or so Labour MPs who are protecting some form of Brexit and about 10 who want a hard version.

Assuming they all hold their seats in a PR election, Brexit would still have a parliamentary majority, but no particular form of Brexit would, as is the case now. In other words, endless delay continues whatever electoral system exists.

[Definitely Not Trumptonium]

Have the Brexit party released a manifesto yet, or they still planning to see if they get elected first?

Why do they need one?

Brexit is far above any other national problem at the moment and most people who are voting or are inclined to vote for the Brexit Party are prepared to do so only on the policy of Brexit and let the leadership fill in the blanks. Nothing is above Brexit, not even a privatised NHS and heck I would vote for the Greens and the disestablishment of the military if they were the only serious pro-Brexit party right now.

Blame Tories and Labour for not carrying out what the people voted for.

[Neu Leonstein]

Why do they need one?

Brexit is far above any other national problem at the moment and most people who are voting or are inclined to vote for the Brexit Party are prepared to do so only on the policy of Brexit and let the leadership fill in the blanks. Nothing is above Brexit, not even a privatised NHS and heck I would vote for the Greens and the disestablishment of the military if they were the only serious pro-Brexit party right now.

Blame Tories and Labour for not carrying out what the people voted for.

And Brexit means Brexit.

[Duhon]

Have the Brexit party released a manifesto yet, or they still planning to see if they get elected first?

Why do they need one?

Brexit is far above any other national problem at the moment and most people who are voting or are inclined to vote for the Brexit Party are prepared to do so only on the policy of Brexit and let the leadership fill in the blanks. Nothing is above Brexit, not even a privatised NHS and heck I would vote for the Greens and the disestablishment of the military if they were the only serious pro-Brexit party right now.

Blame Tories and Labour for not carrying out what the people voted for.

Sir, the pooch is a serial killer. Good thing it's dead!