UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

[Liriena]

Your mistake is in assuming he has any interest in discussion with these people. They are bad faith actors, and no conversation can or should be had with them.

Ostro: "you have to give nazis a platform and debate them in good faith, otherwise you'll just make them stronger"

also Ostro: "all feminists and progressives are bad faith actors so you should just purge them from all platforms and dunk on them like Sargon, rather than engage with them"

Also, you're blatantly wrong there: Sargon has repeatedly debated feminists... and lost every single time. Because he's a know-nothing, reactionary idiot. Stop projecting your own form of anti-feminism onto his.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Spending multiple days and thousands of words incoherently rationalizing an unfunny rape joke made by a UKIPer imbecile because he directed it at a feminist and feminists are the equivalent of the nazis, and then complaining that everyone who disagrees is an indoctrinated, delusional feminist who just doesn't understand your brilliant comedy critique, is very normal behavior and not at all the peak of tribalistic derangement.

Very normal. Extraordinarily normal.

[Ifreann]

You articulated it very succinctly, if unintentionally, in your post from yesterday with the analogy about Sargon's "I wouldn't even rape you" tweet being like a Jew in a concentration camp saying to one of the guards that "I wouldn't even poison the well in your village". We understand by this that typical attitude of a Jew in that situation would be to fully support poisoning a load of Nazis, but there is something exceptional about this Nazi to override that attitude. Something exceptionally negative, not a "You're one of the good ones, I wouldn't poison you" kind of thing. Then in your analogy the Nazis started sputtering furiously about how bad Jews are and how they shouldn't have human rights, which was where I thought the whole thing fell apart. Wouldn't Nazis have just shot dead a back-talking Jew?

But anyway, this analogy reveals what is implicit in Sargon saying "I wouldn't even rape you". By him saying this we understand, as above, that ordinarily Sargon would rape someone like Jess Phillips, but she specifically is so repulsive to him as to override that default attitude. It's the exception proving the rule, which is to say, the fact that there is an exception proves that there is a rule. If someone comments "Ifreann isn't wearing a tie today", you'd understand that normally I do wear a tie, that as a rule I wear a tie and today is an exception.

And now, you can say that your dude doesn't really believe that in his heart of hearts, he was just so mad at Phillips or he was just having a laugh or both or something else. Whatever the content of his thoughts, which only he can ever know, the content of his speech, which was transmitted to many, many people, includes the message "Sexual violence is a weapon to use against those you hate". He doesn't have to really believe that for the message to be there. And that message is way beyond the pale. Whatever about "Bash the fash", no one goes around saying "Rape the fash", that would be insane.

Uh.

No Iffy, Jews Poisoning wells is an anti-semitic trope that Nazis believe Jews do because the Nazi's head is full of nonsense. The Jew would probably not, in fact, poison any wells. That's something the Nazi believes about Jews because they are a bigot.

Also;
Reminder that Layla Moran, feminist MP who assaulted her husband and then blamed him for it, was supported by these same feminist journalists and by Jess Phillips and called brave and so on.

You do not have to give them the consideration they are demanding. We do not even need to consider whether jokes are harmful and "Normalize violence", because that is a norm they are intending to impose only on men and that is clear from their behavior and prior actions.

You're telling me that it's okay to normalise the use of sexual violence as a weapon against those you hate because feminists only think that it's wrong to use sexual violence against women.

Like, whatever feminists think, it should very obviously be bad to normalise sexual violence in any way. We're not talking about punching Richard Spencer or smashing some windows here, there's no possible justifiable use of sexual violence.

we know that they have actively, and very recently, normalized violence against men. That is beyond dispute. It was not a joke. How about, if we're going to discuss whether speech normalizing violence should cause repercussions, we start with the obvious cases first before the controversial ones?

How about if we're going to discuss Carl Benjamin running for European Parliament we discuss Carl Benjamin. I assume you can defend him without attacking me or trying to change the topic to be about the evil feminists.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Spending multiple days and thousands of words incoherently rationalizing an unfunny rape joke made by a UKIPer imbecile because he directed it at a feminist and feminists are the equivalent of the nazis, and then complaining that everyone who disagrees is an indoctrinated, delusional feminist who just doesn't understand your brilliant comedy critique, is very normal behavior and not at all the peak of tribalistic derangement.

When you're a "politician" (honest, guv) and your ""jOkE"" appears abhorrent to the vast majority of the electorate, its hidden """g͕̙̟͠e̜̲n͚̤͓̰̟̕ͅi͈͓ú̜̞s̪͕̺̱̱͝ͅ""" visible to so few people that it speeds up the rapid emptying of your sinking ship and the loss of pretty much any remaining sympathy.

Haha. There's two of us left. Ha.


F͕̜̙̖̹̄͌̌͋ͫ͂͌͊e̯͈̰͍͖͎̦̫̲ͭ͑͂M̞̌̍̌̌̓s̠̩̺̤̼͒̇ͫ̇͆̌ͦ̋ͦͅ ̙͎ͣͯͥ̌ͧO̯̪̳ͥ̈́ͨ̈̾̚ͅͅw̹͖͇͖̝̟͚̪̭̋͗̔ͧN̫̮̰̎ͯ̿ͯ̃e̙̮͉ͮ̈́̄̄̏D̰͔̜̜͇̄

[Liriena]

Uh.

No Iffy, Jews Poisoning wells is an anti-semitic trope that Nazis believe Jews do because the Nazi's head is full of nonsense. The Jew would probably not, in fact, poison any wells. That's something the Nazi believes about Jews because they are a bigot.

Also;
Reminder that Layla Moran, feminist MP who assaulted her husband and then blamed him for it, was supported by these same feminist journalists and by Jess Phillips and called brave and so on.

You do not have to give them the consideration they are demanding. We do not even need to consider whether jokes are harmful and "Normalize violence", because that is a norm they are intending to impose only on men and that is clear from their behavior and prior actions.

You're telling me that it's okay to normalise the use of sexual violence as a weapon against those you hate because feminists only think that it's wrong to use sexual violence against women.

Like, whatever feminists think, it should very obviously be bad to normalise sexual violence in any way. We're not talking about punching Richard Spencer or smashing some windows here, there's no possible justifiable use of sexual violence.

we know that they have actively, and very recently, normalized violence against men. That is beyond dispute. It was not a joke. How about, if we're going to discuss whether speech normalizing violence should cause repercussions, we start with the obvious cases first before the controversial ones?

How about if we're going to discuss Carl Benjamin running for European Parliament we discuss Carl Benjamin. I assume you can defend him without attacking me or trying to change the topic to be about the evil feminists.

How dare you try to stonewall Ostro's customary pivot to the evil deeds of feminism to justify his apologia for yet another right-wing figure?

Spending multiple days and thousands of words incoherently rationalizing an unfunny rape joke made by a UKIPer imbecile because he directed it at a feminist and feminists are the equivalent of the nazis, and then complaining that everyone who disagrees is an indoctrinated, delusional feminist who just doesn't understand your brilliant comedy critique, is very normal behavior and not at all the peak of tribalistic derangement.

When you're a "politician" (honest, guv) and your ""jOkE"" appears abhorrent to the vast majority of the electorate, its hidden """g͕̙̟͠e̜̲n͚̤͓̰̟̕ͅi͈͓ú̜̞s̪͕̺̱̱͝ͅ""" visible to so few people that it speeds up the rapid emptying of your sinking ship and the loss of pretty much any remaining sympathy.

Haha. There's two of us left. Ha.


F͕̜̙̖̹̄͌̌͋ͫ͂͌͊e̯͈̰͍͖͎̦̫̲ͭ͑͂M̞̌̍̌̌̓s̠̩̺̤̼͒̇ͫ̇͆̌ͦ̋ͦͅ ̙͎ͣͯͥ̌ͧO̯̪̳ͥ̈́ͨ̈̾̚ͅͅw̹͖͇͖̝̟͚̪̭̋͗̔ͧN̫̮̰̎ͯ̿ͯ̃e̙̮͉ͮ̈́̄̄̏D̰͔̜̜͇̄

art

Also, I wanna thank Sargon for, not just sinking his personal brand of "classical liberalism", but also helping sink right-wing comedy.

[Ifreann]

You're telling me that it's okay to normalise the use of sexual violence as a weapon against those you hate because feminists only think that it's wrong to use sexual violence against women.

Like, whatever feminists think, it should very obviously be bad to normalise sexual violence in any way. We're not talking about punching Richard Spencer or smashing some windows here, there's no possible justifiable use of sexual violence.


How about if we're going to discuss Carl Benjamin running for European Parliament we discuss Carl Benjamin. I assume you can defend him without attacking me or trying to change the topic to be about the evil feminists.

How dare you try to stonewall Ostro's customary pivot to the evil deeds of feminism to justify his apologia for yet another right-wing figure?

That'll be my broken priorities, my lack of a moral compass, the insidious sickness that is feminism destroying my brain and leaving me literally too mentally impaired to do politics.

[Ostroeuropa]

You're telling me that it's okay to normalise the use of sexual violence as a weapon against those you hate because feminists only think that it's wrong to use sexual violence against women.

Like, whatever feminists think, it should very obviously be bad to normalise sexual violence in any way. We're not talking about punching Richard Spencer or smashing some windows here, there's no possible justifiable use of sexual violence.


How about if we're going to discuss Carl Benjamin running for European Parliament we discuss Carl Benjamin. I assume you can defend him without attacking me or trying to change the topic to be about the evil feminists.

How dare you try to stonewall Ostro's customary pivot to the evil deeds of feminism to justify his apologia for yet another right-wing figure?

When you're a "politician" (honest, guv) and your ""jOkE"" appears abhorrent to the vast majority of the electorate, its hidden """g͕̙̟͠e̜̲n͚̤͓̰̟̕ͅi͈͓ú̜̞s̪͕̺̱̱͝ͅ""" visible to so few people that it speeds up the rapid emptying of your sinking ship and the loss of pretty much any remaining sympathy.

Haha. There's two of us left. Ha.


F͕̜̙̖̹̄͌̌͋ͫ͂͌͊e̯͈̰͍͖͎̦̫̲ͭ͑͂M̞̌̍̌̌̓s̠̩̺̤̼͒̇ͫ̇͆̌ͦ̋ͦͅ ̙͎ͣͯͥ̌ͧO̯̪̳ͥ̈́ͨ̈̾̚ͅͅw̹͖͇͖̝̟͚̪̭̋͗̔ͧN̫̮̰̎ͯ̿ͯ̃e̙̮͉ͮ̈́̄̄̏D̰͔̜̜͇̄

art

Also, I wanna thank Sargon for, not just sinking his personal brand of "classical liberalism", but also helping sink right-wing comedy.

Just look at that sinking brand.
https://socialblade.com/youtube/user/sargonofakkad100
https://www.trackalytics.com/youtube/us ... fakkad100/
https://www.vox.com/2018/1/7/16856574/t ... w-research

I guess they sure showed him. Oh, I messed one up there, ehh … nevermind.

Spending multiple days and thousands of words incoherently rationalizing an unfunny rape joke made by a UKIPer imbecile because he directed it at a feminist and feminists are the equivalent of the nazis, and then complaining that everyone who disagrees is an indoctrinated, delusional feminist who just doesn't understand your brilliant comedy critique, is very normal behavior and not at all the peak of tribalistic derangement.

When you're a "politician" (honest, guv) and your ""jOkE"" appears abhorrent to the vast majority of the electorate, its hidden """g͕̙̟͠e̜̲n͚̤͓̰̟̕ͅi͈͓ú̜̞s̪͕̺̱̱͝ͅ""" visible to so few people that it speeds up the rapid emptying of your sinking ship and the loss of pretty much any remaining sympathy.

Haha. There's two of us left. Ha.


F͕̜̙̖̹̄͌̌͋ͫ͂͌͊e̯͈̰͍͖͎̦̫̲ͭ͑͂M̞̌̍̌̌̓s̠̩̺̤̼͒̇ͫ̇͆̌ͦ̋ͦͅ ̙͎ͣͯͥ̌ͧO̯̪̳ͥ̈́ͨ̈̾̚ͅͅw̹͖͇͖̝̟͚̪̭̋͗̔ͧN̫̮̰̎ͯ̿ͯ̃e̙̮͉ͮ̈́̄̄̏D̰͔̜̜͇̄

It's not working in terms of making him electable, I agree.

Uh.

No Iffy, Jews Poisoning wells is an anti-semitic trope that Nazis believe Jews do because the Nazi's head is full of nonsense. The Jew would probably not, in fact, poison any wells. That's something the Nazi believes about Jews because they are a bigot.

Also;
Reminder that Layla Moran, feminist MP who assaulted her husband and then blamed him for it, was supported by these same feminist journalists and by Jess Phillips and called brave and so on.

You do not have to give them the consideration they are demanding. We do not even need to consider whether jokes are harmful and "Normalize violence", because that is a norm they are intending to impose only on men and that is clear from their behavior and prior actions.

You're telling me that it's okay to normalise the use of sexual violence as a weapon against those you hate because feminists only think that it's wrong to use sexual violence against women.

Like, whatever feminists think, it should very obviously be bad to normalise sexual violence in any way. We're not talking about punching Richard Spencer or smashing some windows here, there's no possible justifiable use of sexual violence.

we know that they have actively, and very recently, normalized violence against men. That is beyond dispute. It was not a joke. How about, if we're going to discuss whether speech normalizing violence should cause repercussions, we start with the obvious cases first before the controversial ones?

How about if we're going to discuss Carl Benjamin running for European Parliament we discuss Carl Benjamin. I assume you can defend him without attacking me or trying to change the topic to be about the evil feminists.

No sexual violence occurred for him to be normalizing.
I would only support Carl within the context of him being an improvement over the status quo, and so reference to that status quo is necessary to discern whether he is any good as a candidate. Give me a broad selection of candidates and i'm fairly likely to kick him to the curb, especially if there are more anti-feminists but even there i'm prepared to hold my nose if they have enough other good policies.
Whining about how a candidate is in the pocket of big oil while ignoring all the alternatives are In the pocket of big oil, big tobacco, and the arms industry isn't productive.

Spending multiple days and thousands of words incoherently rationalizing an unfunny rape joke made by a UKIPer imbecile because he directed it at a feminist and feminists are the equivalent of the nazis, and then complaining that everyone who disagrees is an indoctrinated, delusional feminist who just doesn't understand your brilliant comedy critique, is very normal behavior and not at all the peak of tribalistic derangement.

Nobody on NS is normal.

In other news:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48205408

It's almost like it's related to how represented people feel. Hmm. Like, if only there was a precedent to explain hostility toward a government from the public, like some sort of consistent pattern of history. Honestly, the first past the post system produces these problems and they'll probably get worse as the political forces that drove us into this mess continue to escalate. The practice of democracy and representation is more important than a hollow façade of it and technically abiding by the rules while removing the soul of it.

[Caracasus]

The rape in the 'hope you get raped in prison' is hypothetical too. It is still wrong not least because it normalizes rape. Unless you are suggesting it is hypothetically impossible for women to get raped? I dunno.

Making a joke about rape in particular this joke is super fucking weird and creepy and also not on.

Added to this, he has some responsibilities really considering he is standing for MEP. I'd rather the political arena isn't dominated by whoever can sling shit the hardest which is what this bullshit encourages.

[West Leas Oros 2]

Ostro, I don't see why you would go out of your way to defend a shitty person, when you could just as easily create your own faction that opposes both Sargonist idiocy and radical, anti-male feminism. Just because you both agree open something doesn't mean you have to defend their bullshit. I don't defend Nazis simply because we both hate Stalin.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Spending multiple days and thousands of words incoherently rationalizing an unfunny rape joke made by a UKIPer imbecile because he directed it at a feminist and feminists are the equivalent of the nazis, and then complaining that everyone who disagrees is an indoctrinated, delusional feminist who just doesn't understand your brilliant comedy critique, is very normal behavior and not at all the peak of tribalistic derangement.

When you're a "politician" (honest, guv) and your ""jOkE"" appears abhorrent to the vast majority of the electorate, its hidden """g͕̙̟͠e̜̲n͚̤͓̰̟̕ͅi͈͓ú̜̞s̪͕̺̱̱͝ͅ""" visible to so few people that it speeds up the rapid emptying of your sinking ship and the loss of pretty much any remaining sympathy.

Haha. There's two of us left. Ha.


F͕̜̙̖̹̄͌̌͋ͫ͂͌͊e̯͈̰͍͖͎̦̫̲ͭ͑͂M̞̌̍̌̌̓s̠̩̺̤̼͒̇ͫ̇͆̌ͦ̋ͦͅ ̙͎ͣͯͥ̌ͧO̯̪̳ͥ̈́ͨ̈̾̚ͅͅw̹͖͇͖̝̟͚̪̭̋͗̔ͧN̫̮̰̎ͯ̿ͯ̃e̙̮͉ͮ̈́̄̄̏D̰͔̜̜͇̄

How do you do the matrix thing with your typing? I assume its another site then you copy and paste

[Ifreann]

You're telling me that it's okay to normalise the use of sexual violence as a weapon against those you hate because feminists only think that it's wrong to use sexual violence against women.

Like, whatever feminists think, it should very obviously be bad to normalise sexual violence in any way. We're not talking about punching Richard Spencer or smashing some windows here, there's no possible justifiable use of sexual violence.


How about if we're going to discuss Carl Benjamin running for European Parliament we discuss Carl Benjamin. I assume you can defend him without attacking me or trying to change the topic to be about the evil feminists.

No sexual violence occurred for him to be normalizing.

It doesn't need to have. Duh? You can obviously just talk about sexual violence to change people's ideas about it without a specific instance of sexual violence happening.

I would only support Carl within the context of him being an improvement over the status quo, and so reference to that status quo is necessary to discern whether he is any good as a candidate. Give me a broad selection of candidates and i'm fairly likely to kick him to the curb, especially if there are more anti-feminists but even there i'm prepared to hold my nose if they have enough other good policies.
Whining about how a candidate is in the pocket of big oil while ignoring all the alternatives are In the pocket of big oil, big tobacco, and the arms industry isn't productive.

Carl isn't an alternative to Jess Phillips or any other MP. He's running for European Parliament.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

You're telling me that it's okay to normalise the use of sexual violence as a weapon against those you hate because feminists only think that it's wrong to use sexual violence against women.

Like, whatever feminists think, it should very obviously be bad to normalise sexual violence in any way. We're not talking about punching Richard Spencer or smashing some windows here, there's no possible justifiable use of sexual violence.


How about if we're going to discuss Carl Benjamin running for European Parliament we discuss Carl Benjamin. I assume you can defend him without attacking me or trying to change the topic to be about the evil feminists.

How dare you try to stonewall Ostro's customary pivot to the evil deeds of feminism to justify his apologia for yet another right-wing figure?

When you're a "politician" (honest, guv) and your ""jOkE"" appears abhorrent to the vast majority of the electorate, its hidden """g͕̙̟͠e̜̲n͚̤͓̰̟̕ͅi͈͓ú̜̞s̪͕̺̱̱͝ͅ""" visible to so few people that it speeds up the rapid emptying of your sinking ship and the loss of pretty much any remaining sympathy.

Haha. There's two of us left. Ha.


F͕̜̙̖̹̄͌̌͋ͫ͂͌͊e̯͈̰͍͖͎̦̫̲ͭ͑͂M̞̌̍̌̌̓s̠̩̺̤̼͒̇ͫ̇͆̌ͦ̋ͦͅ ̙͎ͣͯͥ̌ͧO̯̪̳ͥ̈́ͨ̈̾̚ͅͅw̹͖͇͖̝̟͚̪̭̋͗̔ͧN̫̮̰̎ͯ̿ͯ̃e̙̮͉ͮ̈́̄̄̏D̰͔̜̜͇̄

art

Also, I wanna thank Sargon for, not just sinking his personal brand of "classical liberalism", but also helping sink right-wing comedy.

What's right-wing comedy?

[Ifreann]

How dare you try to stonewall Ostro's customary pivot to the evil deeds of feminism to justify his apologia for yet another right-wing figure?


art

Also, I wanna thank Sargon for, not just sinking his personal brand of "classical liberalism", but also helping sink right-wing comedy.

What's right-wing comedy?

Right-wing comedy is when no one laughs at your jokes and you blame political correctness.

[Ostroeuropa]

I suppose it is a matter of me making the mistake of assuming peoples opposition was a relay of the criticism from Phillips and the Journalists involved rather than originating from their own perception of the incident. Thinking about it that way does lend the criticism more weight which I'm not inclined to give it if the source is someone like Phillips of the feminist journalists given their inconsistency on the topic.

The problem was in an opposition in principle to what I perceive as insincere commentary influencing public opinion, whereas it's entirely possible that peoples opinion on the matter has not in fact been influenced even slightly by that commentary.

While I maintain my argument as to why the offendedness and so on of Phillips and the journalists in question should not be taken seriously and their commentary should not be something that influences peoples opinions, it is more difficult for me to argue that, for instance, Caracus having the same reaction and the same commentary is an instance of the same thing.

[The Huskar Social Union]

A NEW CHALLENGER APPEARS

[Fartsniffage]

A NEW CHALLENGER APPEARS

Who is that?

[The Huskar Social Union]

A NEW CHALLENGER APPEARS

Who is that?

Column Eastwood, leader of the Social Democratic Labour Party. He is running in the MEP elections.


I was more talking about the big blue bus to rival the big red bus.

[Ostroeuropa]

Who is that?

Column Eastwood, leader of the Social Democratic Labour Party. He is running in the MEP elections.


I was more talking about the big blue bus to rival the big red bus.

The next poll will show a remainer surge.

[Philjia]

When you're a "politician" (honest, guv) and your ""jOkE"" appears abhorrent to the vast majority of the electorate, its hidden """g͕̙̟͠e̜̲n͚̤͓̰̟̕ͅi͈͓ú̜̞s̪͕̺̱̱͝ͅ""" visible to so few people that it speeds up the rapid emptying of your sinking ship and the loss of pretty much any remaining sympathy.

Haha. There's two of us left. Ha.


F͕̜̙̖̹̄͌̌͋ͫ͂͌͊e̯͈̰͍͖͎̦̫̲ͭ͑͂M̞̌̍̌̌̓s̠̩̺̤̼͒̇ͫ̇͆̌ͦ̋ͦͅ ̙͎ͣͯͥ̌ͧO̯̪̳ͥ̈́ͨ̈̾̚ͅͅw̹͖͇͖̝̟͚̪̭̋͗̔ͧN̫̮̰̎ͯ̿ͯ̃e̙̮͉ͮ̈́̄̄̏D̰͔̜̜͇̄

How do you do the matrix thing with your typing? I assume its another site then you copy and paste

HE COMES

[Philjia]

A NEW CHALLENGER APPEARS

I'm always fascinated by that inexplicable white patch on his beard.

[Ifreann]

A NEW CHALLENGER APPEARS

I'm always fascinated by that inexplicable white patch on his beard.

Mark of the Devil. *nods*

[Battlion]

The fact that there’s a conversation going on about whether it’s acceptable to joke about rape is seriously alarming to me.

[The Two Jerseys]

So the poor new royal bastard

No, he's legitimate.

has been named Archie. The poor fucker

-"William?"
-"Yes Grandmum?"
-"You and Catherine must have another one in order to put some more distance between the Crown and your new nephew."

[Liriena]

The fact that there’s a conversation going on about whether it’s acceptable to joke about rape is seriously alarming to me.

There is such a thing as a good rape joke. Telling someone "I wouldn't even rape you", followed years later by "actually I would lmao" ain't it.

[Liriena]

What's right-wing comedy?

Right-wing comedy is when no one laughs at your jokes and you blame political correctness.

Where's the lie?