UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I've already stated what I think we should do about NI, that being make it Irelands problem by giving it the fuck back.

that's technically a solution but it is not a feasible one because both ireland and northern ireland would need to vote for it

unless the plan is to hope no deal brexit fucks the country so hard they want to leave, in which case, uh, fair dos?

If they don't vote for it, completely remove northern Ireland from UK infrastructure, no government funding and any resources that they rely on the UK to provide cut.

[Philjia]

Unsurprisingly changes to councillor numbers in NI have been fairly undramatic so far, but are somewhat similar to England. After 313 of 462 seats, Alliance are up a respectable 13, while the DUP is down 6, and the UUP and TUV are both down 5. Sinn Fein have gained an extra 2, while the SDLP are down 3. The greens are up 2, while the hard left Eurosceptic People before Profit are up 3. Independents have also gained 3. With gains and losses so low in general, a lot of parties could see a reversal in fortunes after the last 150ish seats.

[Dumb Ideologies]

that's technically a solution but it is not a feasible one because both ireland and northern ireland would need to vote for it

unless the plan is to hope no deal brexit fucks the country so hard they want to leave, in which case, uh, fair dos?

If they don't vote for it, completely remove northern Ireland from UK infrastructure, no government funding and any resources that they rely on the UK to provide cut.

Yes, that sounds like a mature and sensible thing to do. While we're at it, I don't like Coventry very much let's send in death robots.

[Souseiseki]

that's technically a solution but it is not a feasible one because both ireland and northern ireland would need to vote for it

unless the plan is to hope no deal brexit fucks the country so hard they want to leave, in which case, uh, fair dos?

If they don't vote for it, completely remove northern Ireland from UK infrastructure, no government funding and any resources that they rely on the UK to provide cut.

you realize that this is probably illegal, rather immoral and will probably start some kind of conflict

like you sound like a fucking super villain

[The Grims]

I've already stated what I think we should do about NI, that being make it Irelands problem by giving it the fuck back.

Would Scotland and London not also leave then ?

[The Blaatschapen]

that's technically a solution but it is not a feasible one because both ireland and northern ireland would need to vote for it

unless the plan is to hope no deal brexit fucks the country so hard they want to leave, in which case, uh, fair dos?

If they don't vote for it, completely remove northern Ireland from UK infrastructure, no government funding and any resources that they rely on the UK to provide cut.

Then also no taxes from NI.

Not that it will be much. But eh, fair is fair.

Then again, China is aching to invest. My bet is on them to use the relative anarchy in NI to swoop in with some serious investment plans, and then when NI can't pay back, China has its own piece of emerald isle.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

If they don't vote for it, completely remove northern Ireland from UK infrastructure, no government funding and any resources that they rely on the UK to provide cut.

Then also no taxes from NI.

Not that it will be much. But eh, fair is fair.

Then again, China is aching to invest. My bet is on them to use the relative anarchy in NI to swoop in with some serious investment plans, and then when NI can't pay back, China has its own piece of emerald isle.

No taxes from NI isn't exactly a major loss.

[Ifreann]

If they don't vote for it, completely remove northern Ireland from UK infrastructure, no government funding and any resources that they rely on the UK to provide cut.

you realize that this is probably illegal, rather immoral and will probably start some kind of conflict

like you sound like a fucking super villain

Sometimes in politics you need to threaten the nation with a death-ray.

[Souseiseki]

you realize that this is probably illegal, rather immoral and will probably start some kind of conflict

like you sound like a fucking super villain

Sometimes in politics you need to threaten the nation with a death-ray.

meaningful vote 8 is really heating up

[Neu Leonstein]

We can have that, it's called 'no deal.'

You're misunderstanding even the most basic elements of what's happening. "No deal" is not what you think it means. It just means that there's a cliff-edge end to current arrangements for trade and regulatory alignment. It doesn't change anything else. What relationship with the EU does the UK want? What sort of free trade deal? What sort of security cooperation? What sort of migration rules? All of these things need to be negotiated. Who holds what cards and who has what priorities in those negotiations is completely unaffected by what sort of withdrawal agreement is signed or not signed.

The negotiations between the EU and UK (and the arguments within both) will go on for many years regardless. And I'm not even thinking about Ireland in that.

[Neu Leonstein]

Basically Tusk already offered a possoble alternative that suposedly does not exist.

He didn't. I know this has been a bit of a hopeful narrative peddled in Brexiteer opinion pieces a few months back, based on one or two cherry picked phrases from one press conference and willfully interpreted in a particular way, but it's not true. He just reiterated the standard EU line using slightly different language, and every bit of negotiation since then has confirmed that the stance has no changed.

[Ifreann]

Sometimes in politics you need to threaten the nation with a death-ray.

meaningful vote 8 is really heating up

"Tower Bridge was destroyed today as MPs once again rejected Theresa May's Withdrawal Agreement."

[Ostroeuropa]

We don't need to give NI back, and can simply self-determine in such a way that they are booted from the union and decide their own fate, independent NI, or reunite with Ireland.


That said, I oppose any attempts to threaten the territorial integrity of the united kingdom or its overseas territories, which is one reason I oppose brexit. pretty much the only reason tbh, beyond vague euronationalism and a desire to see a european superstate.

My solution would be to install border checks between NI and the rest of the united kingdom, and to resolve citizenship law so that persons born in Northern Ireland not to British parents only obtain Irish citizenship, not both British and Irish citizenship as they currently do, whereas people born in Northern Ireland to a British parent do obtain British citizenship, in addition to Irish citizenship.

That solution is not one the DUP would accept, though.

this doesn't resolve the Gibraltar issue however, nor the Cyprus issue.

[Ifreann]

We don't need to give NI back, and can simply self-determine in such a way that they are booted from the union and decide their own fate, independent NI, or reunite with Ireland.


That said, I oppose any attempts to threaten the territorial integrity of the united kingdom or its overseas territories, which is one reason I oppose brexit. pretty much the only reason tbh, beyond vague euronationalism and a desire to see a european superstate.

My solution would be to install border checks between NI and the rest of the united kingdom, and to resolve citizenship law so that persons born in Northern Ireland not to British parents only obtain Irish citizenship, not both British and Irish citizenship as they currently do, whereas people born in Northern Ireland to a British parent do obtain British citizenship, in addition to Irish citizenship.

That solution is not one the DUP would accept, though.

this doesn't resolve the Gibraltar issue however, nor the Cyprus issue.

Denying either British or Irish citizenship to people born in the North would, I'm pretty sure, violate the GFA.

[Ostroeuropa]

We don't need to give NI back, and can simply self-determine in such a way that they are booted from the union and decide their own fate, independent NI, or reunite with Ireland.


That said, I oppose any attempts to threaten the territorial integrity of the united kingdom or its overseas territories, which is one reason I oppose brexit. pretty much the only reason tbh, beyond vague euronationalism and a desire to see a european superstate.

My solution would be to install border checks between NI and the rest of the united kingdom, and to resolve citizenship law so that persons born in Northern Ireland not to British parents only obtain Irish citizenship, not both British and Irish citizenship as they currently do, whereas people born in Northern Ireland to a British parent do obtain British citizenship, in addition to Irish citizenship.

That solution is not one the DUP would accept, though.

this doesn't resolve the Gibraltar issue however, nor the Cyprus issue.

Denying either British or Irish citizenship to people born in the North would, I'm pretty sure, violate the GFA.

Nobody would be denied Irish citizenship, and the only people denied British citizenship would be children of those who aren't already British citizens. It's not something I can imagine either party getting particular upset with unless they are actively trying to facilitate an EU immigration loophole into the UK, in which case their upset is not a bug, it's a feature. Nobody is rendered stateless and so on. There would be no border check between NI and the rest of the Island, and so on. THAT part would piss off the DUP, as would border checks between the Island of Ireland and the rest of the UK.

[Philjia]

The Lib Dem Surge™ is in full effect in NI as Alliance have now gained 17 extra seats. The DUP have jumped into first place for most seats lost, with 9. The UUP are close behind on 7. 356 of 462 seats have been declared.

[Ifreann]

Denying either British or Irish citizenship to people born in the North would, I'm pretty sure, violate the GFA.

Nobody would be denied Irish citizenship, and the only people denied British citizenship would be children of those who aren't already British citizens. It's not something I can imagine either party getting particular upset with unless they are actively trying to facilitate an EU immigration loophole into the UK. Nobody is rendered stateless and so on.

It doesn't matter whether anyone would be upset, no one would let you change the GFA in the first place, nor let you get away with violating it.

[Bears Armed]

Nobody would be denied Irish citizenship, and the only people denied British citizenship would be children of those who aren't already British citizens. It's not something I can imagine either party getting particular upset with unless they are actively trying to facilitate an EU immigration loophole into the UK. Nobody is rendered stateless and so on.

It doesn't matter whether anyone would be upset, no one would let you change the GFA in the first place, nor let you get away with violating it.

Is the NI political parties' failure (for over two years, now) to maintain a power-sharing government actually compatible with the GFA?

[Ifreann]

It doesn't matter whether anyone would be upset, no one would let you change the GFA in the first place, nor let you get away with violating it.

Is the NI political parties' failure (for over two years, now) to maintain a power-sharing government actually compatible with the GFA?

Yep. This prolonged failure the Northern Ireland Assembly to meaningfully exist(838 days!) does allow Westminster to implement direct rule, but as far as I know there's no requirement that they ever actually do so, so this stupid limbo could theoretically exist forever. Or at least until some spine and political will can be found in Westminster.

So like I said, forever.

[Philjia]

Is the NI political parties' failure (for over two years, now) to maintain a power-sharing government actually compatible with the GFA?

Yep. This prolonged failure the Northern Ireland Assembly to meaningfully exist(838 days!) does allow Westminster to implement direct rule, but as far as I know there's no requirement that they ever actually do so, so this stupid limbo could theoretically exist forever. Or at least until some spine and political will can be found in Westminster.

So like I said, forever.

It's not a problem anyone has an incentive to solve so it will remain unsolved unless there's an incentive. Not getting their pay stopped, for example.

[Ifreann]

Yep. This prolonged failure the Northern Ireland Assembly to meaningfully exist(838 days!) does allow Westminster to implement direct rule, but as far as I know there's no requirement that they ever actually do so, so this stupid limbo could theoretically exist forever. Or at least until some spine and political will can be found in Westminster.

So like I said, forever.

It's not a problem anyone has an incentive to solve so it will remain unsolved unless there's an incentive. Not getting their pay stopped, for example.

Mmm, and they can't be voted out of office, because they'll just never call elections.

[Juristonia]

Basically Tusk already offered a possoble alternative that suposedly does not exist.

He didn't. I know this has been a bit of a hopeful narrative peddled in Brexiteer opinion pieces a few months back, based on one or two cherry picked phrases from one press conference and willfully interpreted in a particular way, but it's not true. He just reiterated the standard EU line using slightly different language, and every bit of negotiation since then has confirmed that the stance has no changed.

It's a little impressive how "This is where we stand, and that is not going to change" is still so open to interpretation, even after well over two years of repeating it.

[Souseiseki]

He didn't. I know this has been a bit of a hopeful narrative peddled in Brexiteer opinion pieces a few months back, based on one or two cherry picked phrases from one press conference and willfully interpreted in a particular way, but it's not true. He just reiterated the standard EU line using slightly different language, and every bit of negotiation since then has confirmed that the stance has no changed.

It's a little impressive how "This is where we stand, and that is not going to change" is still so open to interpretation, even after well over two years of repeating it.

"This is where we stand. We will not move from this position."

"Ah, you say that you will not move from that position, but from which perspective do you judge this position? You seem to be standing still, but in reality, you are moving through space at breakneck speeds on a big rock! So much for the tolerant left."

"..."

"Dammit, I warned you about these Englishmen!"

[Bears Armed]

It's not a problem anyone has an incentive to solve so it will remain unsolved unless there's an incentive. Not getting their pay stopped, for example.

Mmm, and they can't be voted out of office, because they'll just never call elections.

Isn't there a legal time-limit on that, just as there is for any other political elections in the UK?!?

EDIT: Wikipedia says that elections to the Assembly must be held every four years.

[Souseiseki]

Mmm, and they can't be voted out of office, because they'll just never call elections.

Isn't there a legal time-limit on that, just as there is for any other political elections in the UK?!?

the UK is a complere memeland. i would not be surprised in the slightest if there was no limit whatsoever.

e: it seems like the time limit is for how long a specific parliament lasts. doesn't seem to be anything in there about how long you can go without a parliament. lol.