UK Politics Thread IX: The Masses Against the Classes

[Neu Leonstein]

This is like a new variant of the 'No True Scotsman' argument. No true Brexit party lost seats at the local elections. Because if they did, they obviously didn't support Brexit.

[Ifreann]

This is like a new variant of the 'No True Scotsman' argument. No true Brexit party lost seats at the local elections. Because if they did, they obviously didn't support Brexit.

Brexit has won the local elections!

[Philjia]

The DUP have got their first openly gay councillor.

In other news the Christmas Dinner party have their first Turkey candidate.

Alliance are the biggest winners so far in the Northern Irish local elections, with eight seats gained, while the biggest losers are Traditional Unionist Voice, who've lost 4. (263 of 462 seats have been declared)

[Battlion]

Can someone please tell me how Labour can spin these results as a success? It’s actually infuriating, at least the Tories are upfront about how bad it was. 2015 was an awful year in locals for Labour, 2019 was worse than that... and yet all I see is the Labourites online banging the drum saying it’s indicative that they’re on course to win a big majority.

[Philjia]

Can someone please tell me how Labour can spin these results as a success? It’s actually infuriating, at least the Tories are upfront about how bad it was. 2015 was an awful year in locals for Labour, 2019 was worse than that... and yet all I see is the Labourites online banging the drum saying it’s indicative that they’re on course to win a big majority.

I guess their angle is that they didn't lose as much as the Tories? They still have fewer seats overall though, and their current Brexit stance won't play well with the Liberal Democrats and SNP, who'll they'll basically need to prop up any Labour minority in the near future.

[The Nihilistic view]

Can someone please tell me how Labour can spin these results as a success? It’s actually infuriating, at least the Tories are upfront about how bad it was. 2015 was an awful year in locals for Labour, 2019 was worse than that... and yet all I see is the Labourites online banging the drum saying it’s indicative that they’re on course to win a big majority.

I guess their angle is that they didn't lose as much as the Tories? They still have fewer seats overall though, and their current Brexit stance won't play well with the Liberal Democrats and SNP, who'll they'll basically need to prop up any Labour minority in the near future.

It will be clearer after the EU elections but the next general election and perhaps even the future of the conservatives hinges on a brexit that is good enough for most of the people that will vote for the Brexit party in 3 weeks.

I'm in Hampshire, and the level of dissatisfacion even betrayal about this is higher than I have even seen in my local association. There would be those a few like me that would quietly tell you they voted UKIP in EU elections in the past. But that would never even have thought about voting for UKIP at a general election. Now I've had open conversations where we would vote for the Brexit party in a general election if it's not sorted out before then. That will 100% affect local election campaigning and turnout.

Seems to me that Labours problem with forming a position is Jezza is probanly secretly is really happy to be leaving the EU since we need to leave for half his political ideas to be possible given so many of them are curtailed by EU rules. Actual socialist policies are not in general very compatable with the EU. A bit like in the referendum he does not really want to be doing what many people in the party want him to. And therein lies Labour's inability I think to take advantage yesterday of May screwing up so badly.

Both fucking themselves really in different ways over the same thing.

[Fartsniffage]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOKLmYF4b20

[Neu Leonstein]

It will be clearer after the EU elections but the next general election and perhaps even the future of the conservatives hinges on a brexit that is good enough for most of the people that will vote for the Brexit party in 3 weeks.

I'd agree with that... but the problem is that the Brexit that these people thought they voted for just does not exist. Never did. They thought that they could turn the UK into Australia or something - a completely independent country, far away and able to choose the shape of its international relationships completely at will. (And no, that's not how it works for Australia either)

But that's not possible, because the UK doesn't start from a blank slate. No party can deliver it. No policy can achieve it.

Some politicians are sufficiently unethical (or stupid) to promise it anyway. So the issue changes from a policy question to a culture war. No winners, no resolutions. Just neverending virtue signalling to one's own tribe.

The Tories will break apart over that culture war. Labour may well do so too.

[Battlion]

Another narrative I’m hearing is that the LibDems have simply just bounced back a bit from their drubbing in 2015 and you’d expect that, when you look at the figures. The LibDems lost 411 seats in 2015 and ended up with 658 they’ve gone up to 1350 (up 703 - based on notional redrawing) and that they’ve recovered from the decimation and gone further than that.

Think that’s also pretty shitty.

[Vassenor]

Meanwhile the Express and the Mail are claiming that all 30000 spoiled ballots prove this was because people think Brexit isn't hard enough.

[Battlion]

Meanwhile the Express and the Mail are claiming that all 30000 spoiled ballots prove this was because people think Brexit isn't hard enough.

I nearly spoilt my ballot, if I had, it would definitely not been because Brexit isn’t hard enough...

[Caracasus]

Can someone please tell me how Labour can spin these results as a success? It’s actually infuriating, at least the Tories are upfront about how bad it was. 2015 was an awful year in locals for Labour, 2019 was worse than that... and yet all I see is the Labourites online banging the drum saying it’s indicative that they’re on course to win a big majority.

Not saying I agree with the perspective, but I believe the idea is because a. The conservatives absolutely fucking tanked whereas Labour just had a bad night and b. Because councils they did win were in areas that were a bit unusual.

[The Huskar Social Union]

The DUP have got their first openly gay councillor.

In other news the Christmas Dinner party have their first Turkey candidate.

Alliance are the biggest winners so far in the Northern Irish local elections, with eight seats gained, while the biggest losers are Traditional Unionist Voice, who've lost 4. (263 of 462 seats have been declared)

Joining the party that is the reason you cant get married and whose members in the past have campaigned for your sexuality to not be decriminalised, to not be able to adopt, to give blood, and who have compared you to paedophiles.


Top logic.

[Dumb Ideologies]

The DUP have got their first openly gay councillor.

In other news the Christmas Dinner party have their first Turkey candidate.

Alliance are the biggest winners so far in the Northern Irish local elections, with eight seats gained, while the biggest losers are Traditional Unionist Voice, who've lost 4. (263 of 462 seats have been declared)

Joining the party that is the reason you cant get married and whose members in the past have campaigned for your sexuality to not be decriminalised, to not be able to adopt, to give blood, and who have compared you to paedophiles.


Top logic.

On the positive side at least you've got that rare example of a politician definitely not acting from self-interest.

[Battlion]

Can someone please tell me how Labour can spin these results as a success? It’s actually infuriating, at least the Tories are upfront about how bad it was. 2015 was an awful year in locals for Labour, 2019 was worse than that... and yet all I see is the Labourites online banging the drum saying it’s indicative that they’re on course to win a big majority.

Not saying I agree with the perspective, but I believe the idea is because a. The conservatives absolutely fucking tanked whereas Labour just had a bad night and b. Because councils they did win were in areas that were a bit unusual.

Additional thought, in 2015 Labour lost seats they were contested before that at 2011 where they made gains of 857. They're not moved forward in those councils in 8 years despite all that's happened since then.

Think that's a note that's also being missed

Also yes, the Tories tanked bit not to Labour's benefit. In every measure Labour underperformed - even in comparison to the PNS last year's locals they've gone backwards. I just don't get how they can refute the irrefutable that they've gone backwards.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

It will be clearer after the EU elections but the next general election and perhaps even the future of the conservatives hinges on a brexit that is good enough for most of the people that will vote for the Brexit party in 3 weeks.

I'd agree with that... but the problem is that the Brexit that these people thought they voted for just does not exist. Never did. They thought that they could turn the UK into Australia or something - a completely independent country, far away and able to choose the shape of its international relationships completely at will. (And no, that's not how it works for Australia either)

But that's not possible, because the UK doesn't start from a blank slate. No party can deliver it. No policy can achieve it.

Some politicians are sufficiently unethical (or stupid) to promise it anyway. So the issue changes from a policy question to a culture war. No winners, no resolutions. Just neverending virtue signalling to one's own tribe.

The Tories will break apart over that culture war. Labour may well do so too.

We can have that, it's called 'no deal.'

[The Grims]

I'd agree with that... but the problem is that the Brexit that these people thought they voted for just does not exist. Never did. They thought that they could turn the UK into Australia or something - a completely independent country, far away and able to choose the shape of its international relationships completely at will. (And no, that's not how it works for Australia either)

But that's not possible, because the UK doesn't start from a blank slate. No party can deliver it. No policy can achieve it.

Some politicians are sufficiently unethical (or stupid) to promise it anyway. So the issue changes from a policy question to a culture war. No winners, no resolutions. Just neverending virtue signalling to one's own tribe.

The Tories will break apart over that culture war. Labour may well do so too.

We can have that, it's called 'no deal.'

Not without giving up Northern Ireland.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

I'd agree with that... but the problem is that the Brexit that these people thought they voted for just does not exist. Never did. They thought that they could turn the UK into Australia or something - a completely independent country, far away and able to choose the shape of its international relationships completely at will. (And no, that's not how it works for Australia either)

But that's not possible, because the UK doesn't start from a blank slate. No party can deliver it. No policy can achieve it.

Some politicians are sufficiently unethical (or stupid) to promise it anyway. So the issue changes from a policy question to a culture war. No winners, no resolutions. Just neverending virtue signalling to one's own tribe.

The Tories will break apart over that culture war. Labour may well do so too.

We can have that, it's called 'no deal.'

People pushing for a no deal Brexit is the best weapon to stop Brexit happening at all, and destroy the Tory Party.

[Souseiseki]

I'd agree with that... but the problem is that the Brexit that these people thought they voted for just does not exist. Never did. They thought that they could turn the UK into Australia or something - a completely independent country, far away and able to choose the shape of its international relationships completely at will. (And no, that's not how it works for Australia either)

But that's not possible, because the UK doesn't start from a blank slate. No party can deliver it. No policy can achieve it.

Some politicians are sufficiently unethical (or stupid) to promise it anyway. So the issue changes from a policy question to a culture war. No winners, no resolutions. Just neverending virtue signalling to one's own tribe.

The Tories will break apart over that culture war. Labour may well do so too.

We can have that, it's called 'no deal.'

the UK is bound firstly by existing treaties and secondly by the geopolitical and economic realities of the world. even in the absolute worst case scenario where extreme brexiters are 100% right and the EU is a diabolical protectionist cartel that doesn't change the fact that you're still stuck right next to the diabolical protectionist cartel and you're going to have to deal with them. for the same reason, australia is not truly independent and has went form being dependent to the UK to being dependent on the US.

[The Nihilistic view]

It will be clearer after the EU elections but the next general election and perhaps even the future of the conservatives hinges on a brexit that is good enough for most of the people that will vote for the Brexit party in 3 weeks.

I'd agree with that... but the problem is that the Brexit that these people thought they voted for just does not exist. Never did. They thought that they could turn the UK into Australia or something - a completely independent country, far away and able to choose the shape of its international relationships completely at will. (And no, that's not how it works for Australia either)

But that's not possible, because the UK doesn't start from a blank slate. No party can deliver it. No policy can achieve it.

Some politicians are sufficiently unethical (or stupid) to promise it anyway. So the issue changes from a policy question to a culture war. No winners, no resolutions. Just neverending virtue signalling to one's own tribe.

The Tories will break apart over that culture war. Labour may well do so too.

In the worst form it exists in a no deal. If Parliment as a whole had swallowed the bile and said it's free trade deal time something like that would have happened. Last Autum the EU made sounds that something similar to the recent Canadian trade deal could work. The alternative exits most certainly the problem is the number of politicians who will do everything not to actually leave properly.

[Souseiseki]

I'd agree with that... but the problem is that the Brexit that these people thought they voted for just does not exist. Never did. They thought that they could turn the UK into Australia or something - a completely independent country, far away and able to choose the shape of its international relationships completely at will. (And no, that's not how it works for Australia either)

But that's not possible, because the UK doesn't start from a blank slate. No party can deliver it. No policy can achieve it.

Some politicians are sufficiently unethical (or stupid) to promise it anyway. So the issue changes from a policy question to a culture war. No winners, no resolutions. Just neverending virtue signalling to one's own tribe.

The Tories will break apart over that culture war. Labour may well do so too.

In the worst form it exists in a no deal. If Parliment as a whole had swallowed the bile and said it's free trade deal time something like that would have happened. Last Autum the EU made sounds that something similar to the recent Canadian trade deal could work. The alternative exits most certainly the problem is the number of politicians who will do everything not to actually leave properly.

free trade deal cannot happen without a solution to the northern ireland problem

do you have such a solution?

[The Nihilistic view]

Basically Tusk already offered a possoble alternative that suposedly does not exist.

[Souseiseki]

Basically Tusk already offered a possoble alternative that suposedly does not exist.

can you link the details of this alternative

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I've already stated what I think we should do about NI, that being make it Irelands problem by giving it the fuck back.

[Souseiseki]

I've already stated what I think we should do about NI, that being make it Irelands problem by giving it the fuck back.

that's technically a solution but it is not a feasible one because both ireland and northern ireland would need to vote for it

unless the plan is to hope no deal brexit fucks the country so hard they want to leave, in which case, uh, fair dos?