How could the Axis Powers win WW2?

[Vassenor]

Fact of the matter is changing the BUF to not being anti semitic is as ridiculous as changing the Nazis so they were not anti semitic. Changing someones belief is not alternate reality. It is fantasy plain and simple. The BUF was never going to become popular espically when Britain was at war with Germany.

Absolutely not. Mosley had not gone explicitly antisemitic until the Battle of Cable Street. If I'm wrong about this, correct me, and I will surrender the argument. It is much easier for a fascist to denounce racial politics then a National Socialist, as Fascism has no racial policy. The German Interpretation of Fascism, Strasserism and National Socialism, incorporates racial policy. Pinochet, Peron, and Franco do not.

If Mosley had not gone Antisemitic, remained fascist, and presented his party better, they could've done the Axis a favour in winning WWII.

Or more likely they stayed on the fringe and got frozen out when war were declared.

[The Black Party]

Absolutely not. Mosley had not gone explicitly antisemitic until the Battle of Cable Street. If I'm wrong about this, correct me, and I will surrender the argument. It is much easier for a fascist to denounce racial politics then a National Socialist, as Fascism has no racial policy. The German Interpretation of Fascism, Strasserism and National Socialism, incorporates racial policy. Pinochet, Peron, and Franco do not.

If Mosley had not gone Antisemitic, remained fascist, and presented his party better, they could've done the Axis a favour in winning WWII.

Or more likely they stayed on the fringe and got frozen out when war were declared.

How would that help the Axis Powers win WWII? Are you forgetting what this thread is about? Are you straying from the topic?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

These were Fascist Nazis so having them not attack Jews is simple fantasy.

Fascism ≠ National Socialism. Two different things. Two different ideologies. Many variations. But not the same thing.

Maybe they should've appealed to Britain's innate love of Italian fascism instead.

[Vassenor]

Or more likely they stayed on the fringe and got frozen out when war were declared.

How would that help the Axis Powers win WWII? Are you forgetting what this thread is about? Are you straying from the topic?

It wouldn't. That's the point.

[Andsed]

Fact of the matter is changing the BUF to not being anti semitic is as ridiculous as changing the Nazis so they were not anti semitic. Changing someones belief is not alternate reality. It is fantasy plain and simple. The BUF was never going to become popular espically when Britain was at war with Germany.

Absolutely not. Mosley had not gone explicitly antisemitic until the Battle of Cable Street. If I'm wrong about this, correct me, and I will surrender the argument. It is much easier for a fascist to denounce racial politics then a National Socialist, as Fascism has no racial policy. The German Interpretation of Fascism, Strasserism and National Socialism, incorporates racial policy. Pinochet, Peron, and Franco do not.

If Mosley had not gone Antisemitic, remained fascist, and presented his party better, they could've done the Axis a favour in winning WWII.

No matter what Mosley did the BUF was never going to be popular with the British people when they were at war with fascist Nazi Germany.

[The Black Party]

Maybe they should've appealed to Britain's innate love of Italian fascism instead.

Precisely. That could've easily altered the course of history for the worse.

No matter what Mosley did the BUF was never going to be popular with the British people when they were at war with fascist Nazi Germany.

But here's the thing, the BUF was popular to begin with. They enjoyed rapid party growth in it's early stages. They lost popularity after 37 to 40 where they were outlawed.

[The Black Party]

It wouldn't. That's the point.

Really? Because this seems like an unnecessary snarky remark,

Or more likely they stayed on the fringe and got frozen out when war were declared.

rather then a contribution discussion point as to why you think my idea for how the Axis Power's could win WWII is infeasible.

[Andsed]

Maybe they should've appealed to Britain's innate love of Italian fascism instead.

Precisely. That could've easily altered the course of history for the worse.

No matter what Mosley did the BUF was never going to be popular with the British people when they were at war with fascist Nazi Germany.

But here's the thing, the BUF was popular to begin with. They enjoyed rapid party growth in it's early stages. They lost popularity after 37 to 40 where they were outlawed.

Yeah they lost popularity because of a little thing called WW2 where Britain went to war with a fascist nation and they were outlawed because you know they were at war with a nation who they shared an ideology with. Unless WW2 never happened the BUF was never going to take power.

[Vassenor]

How would that help the Axis Powers win WWII? Are you forgetting what this thread is about? Are you straying from the topic?

It wouldn't. That's the point.

Really? Because this seems like an unnecessary snarky remark,

Or more likely they stayed on the fringe and got frozen out when war were declared.

rather then a contribution discussion point as to why you think my idea for how the Axis Power's could win WWII is infeasible.

Hiding behind accusations of threadjacking to try and shut down criticism of your point doesn't really fly.

[The Black Party]

Yeah they lost popularity because of a little thing called WW2 where Britain went to war with a fascist nation and they were outlawed because you know they were at war with a nation who they shared an ideology with. Unless WW2 never happened the BUF was never going to take power.

Unless the BUF remained popular and rejected antisemitism, in which there is a good possibility the Battle for Cable Street wouldn't have happened, and the BUF would be allowed to exist as an entity, and influence British politics to prevent British interest in continuing combat against Germany after Goebbels does his job and shows off how well they could treat British POWs, which leads to an apolitical feeling towards Germany and possibly peace treaty, which leads to a secure Western Front for the Axis.

[The Black Party]

Hiding behind accusations of threadjacking to try and shut down criticism of your point doesn't really fly.

Sorry,

Or more likely they stayed on the fringe and got frozen out when war were declared.

is obviously stellar criticism of my argument, and I should do better to refute the intellectual discussion point you opened up in this, on-topic, absolutely necessary comment.

[Vassenor]

Yeah they lost popularity because of a little thing called WW2 where Britain went to war with a fascist nation and they were outlawed because you know they were at war with a nation who they shared an ideology with. Unless WW2 never happened the BUF was never going to take power.

Unless the BUF remained popular and rejected antisemitism, in which there is a good possibility the Battle for Cable Street wouldn't have happened, and the BUF would be allowed to exist as an entity, and influence British politics to prevent British interest in continuing combat against Germany after Goebbels does his job and shows off how well they could treat British POWs, which leads to an apolitical feeling towards Germany and possibly peace treaty, which leads to a secure Western Front for the Axis.

Or, as is more likely, his shit is written off as basic level propaganda.

[The Black Party]

Unless the BUF remained popular and rejected antisemitism, in which there is a good possibility the Battle for Cable Street wouldn't have happened, and the BUF would be allowed to exist as an entity, and influence British politics to prevent British interest in continuing combat against Germany after Goebbels does his job and shows off how well they could treat British POWs, which leads to an apolitical feeling towards Germany and possibly peace treaty, which leads to a secure Western Front for the Axis.

Or, as is more likely, his shit is written off as basic level propaganda.

Or, if you even consider the situation I presented in which the BUF and Goebbels up the propaganda, the British people could've have been influenced by such.

[Andsed]

Yeah they lost popularity because of a little thing called WW2 where Britain went to war with a fascist nation and they were outlawed because you know they were at war with a nation who they shared an ideology with. Unless WW2 never happened the BUF was never going to take power.

Unless the BUF remained popular and rejected antisemitism, in which there is a good possibility the Battle for Cable Street wouldn't have happened, and the BUF would be allowed to exist as an entity, and influence British politics to prevent British interest in continuing combat against Germany after Goebbels does his job and shows off how well they could treat British POWs, which leads to an apolitical feeling towards Germany and possibly peace treaty, which leads to a secure Western Front for the Axis.

Wrong in every sense of the word. First off changing what a group believed is not alternate history it is simple fantasy. And do you really think the British would allow allow a fascist party to exist while they were at war with a fascist nation? And as long as Churchill was in power Britain as never going to make peace with the Nazis.

[Vassenor]

Or, as is more likely, his shit is written off as basic level propaganda.

Or, if you even consider the situation I presented in which the BUF and Goebbels up the propaganda, the British people could've have been influenced by such.

Except that the BUF gets pushed out once war happens. After all, who wants to keep a load of enemy sympathisers near government?

[Andsed]

Or, if you even consider the situation I presented in which the BUF and Goebbels up the propaganda, the British people could've have been influenced by such.

Except that the BUF gets pushed out once war happens. After all, who wants to keep a load of enemy sympathisers near government?

No one. I mean hell look at what the US did to the Japanese in America after war with Japan begin. And the Japanese in America did not even really sympathize with Japan.

[The Black Party]

Wrong in every sense of the word. First off changing what a group believed is not alternate history it is simple fantasy. And do you really think the British would allow allow a fascist party to exist while they were at war with a fascist nation? And as long as Churchill was in power Britain as never going to make peace with the Nazis.

Changing what a group believed is not simple fantasy. Assuming the alternate history of Mosley not practising antisemitism and remaining content with fascism is just that, alternate history. All Mosley had to do was not ramble on about Sir John Simon being Jewish.

Except that the BUF gets pushed out once war happens. After all, who wants to keep a load of enemy sympathisers near government?

If the BUF was more popular, and the British people more apathetic to war with Germany, Britain could've sued for peace after Dunkirk, simply by popular will of the people. We don't need everyone to sympathize with Nazi's and the BUF. All that needs to happen is everyone- or, most of the British population, to just do any of the following,
1. Not care or want about another war with Germany,
2. Not want to send their husbands, brothers, and sons to die in Europe again,
3. Be scared of Germany after Dunkirk and Paris,
or 4. Sympathize with the BUF and their non-antisemitic (excuse the double negative) policies.

[Vassenor]

Wrong in every sense of the word. First off changing what a group believed is not alternate history it is simple fantasy. And do you really think the British would allow allow a fascist party to exist while they were at war with a fascist nation? And as long as Churchill was in power Britain as never going to make peace with the Nazis.

Changing what a group believed is not simple fantasy. Assuming the alternate history of Mosley not practising antisemitism and remaining content with fascism is just that, alternate history. All Mosley had to do was not ramble on about Sir John Simon being Jewish.

Except that the BUF gets pushed out once war happens. After all, who wants to keep a load of enemy sympathisers near government?

If the BUF was more popular, and the British people more apathetic to war with Germany, Britain could've sued for peace after Dunkirk, simply by popular will of the people. We don't need everyone to sympathize with Nazi's and the BUF. All that needs to happen is everyone- or, most of the British population, to just do any of the following,
1. Not care or want about another war with Germany,
2. Not want to send their husbands, brothers, and sons to die in Europe again,
3. Be scared of Germany after Dunkirk and Paris,
or 4. Sympathize with the BUF and their non-antisemitic (excuse the double negative) policies.

Which is unlikely.

[The Black Party]

Changing what a group believed is not simple fantasy. Assuming the alternate history of Mosley not practising antisemitism and remaining content with fascism is just that, alternate history. All Mosley had to do was not ramble on about Sir John Simon being Jewish.

If the BUF was more popular, and the British people more apathetic to war with Germany, Britain could've sued for peace after Dunkirk, simply by popular will of the people. We don't need everyone to sympathize with Nazi's and the BUF. All that needs to happen is everyone- or, most of the British population, to just do any of the following,
1. Not care or want about another war with Germany,
2. Not want to send their husbands, brothers, and sons to die in Europe again,
3. Be scared of Germany after Dunkirk and Paris,
or 4. Sympathize with the BUF and their non-antisemitic (excuse the double negative) policies.

Which is unlikely.

Unless the BUF and the Third Reich were more popular with English civilians. Germany, through Goebbels and the British Free Corps, and riding the myth of the Germans "sparing" the boys at Dunkirk, and the BUF by simply not being antisemitic and less violent.

In which case it becomes a very real possibility for alternate history.

[Vassenor]

Which is unlikely.

Unless the BUF and the Third Reich were more popular with English civilians. Germany, through Goebbels and the British Free Corps, and riding the myth of the Germans "sparing" the boys at Dunkirk, and the BUF by simply not being antisemitic and less violent.

In which case it becomes a very real possibility for alternate history.

The BFC was never more than twenty people at a time, with most claiming they joined it purely to try and sabotage the Germans. It would not have accomplished anything.

[The Black Party]

The BFC was never more than twenty people at a time, with most claiming they joined it purely to try and sabotage the Germans. It would not have accomplished anything.

Goebbels should have went directly to Himmler or whoever was in-charge of the Waffen-SS and formed the BFC much earlier. Preferably right after Dunkirk. Every British POW who wasn't a security threat should've have been enlisted into the BFC and forced to put on a smiley face for the German Press. That would've kept them popular with the UK.

The BFC was formed far too late to make any real impact, and was probably only given the go-ahead when German HC started panicking about the idea of the UK opening up a new front in the West. This is one of Hitler's many mistakes.

[Manokan Republic]

Russia allied itself with Germany, and they started WWII together, invading Poland. If the soviets used their 10's of millions of men and actually decent technology (many german weapons, notably the G43, were based on soviet weapons), then possibly, they could have achieved more results, although winning is unlikely. Taking over swaths of Europe and Africa, yes. With the development of the Ak-47, which occured in 1947, and soviet manpower nad weapons not being drained by the germans but assisted, and the soviets giving oil to Germany who drastically needed it (with massive oil shortages), they could have done alright. Granted much of soviet industry was due to allied help, but it was still better than the germans in many way, and the germans had things the soviets didn't. If the americans had to face 28 million Russians and 12 million germans, it would have been more likely that only half of Germany was taken, like what happened in the cold war, but that the german government would still exist in some capacity.

Instead of a victory per se we get a stalemate, like the real cold war that actually happened, but only with the soviets and germans both considerably better off.

One flaw with this plan. The flaw is that it would never happen. The Nazis and Soviets hated each other they were never going to ally.

Exactly, the nazis were extremely racist against slavic people, to an extent that was more vicious than even against jews, killing more percentage wise in camps than jews. So, basically, if the nazis weren't nazis, maybe they could achieve a cold war type scenario xD

[Manokan Republic]

Obviously, most of these plans for the nazis winning essentially involve the nazis not being nazis, like not wasting resources on trying to kill innocent slavs (Russians) and Jewish people and instead using them to build up their main forces. An idea of the nazis not being nazis could be that an assassination takes place of Hitler and a bunch of other nazis by some group like with Operation Valkyrie, and they restructure themselves as a generic authoritarian state, possibly something along the lines of the "grey guard" or the like, thus leading to a shift in ideology. At the time many did not even know of the concentration camps, so the german population was not 100% behind the concept of nazis, largely believing in the propaganda rather than explicit nazi ideology reserved for the inner party. With a swift take over you could mask the death of hitler and other nazis as accidents/enemy attacks, and take over without even riling up the masses. You would just be another strong leader that helped the country through a difficult period, I.E. the death of Hitler, particularly if you continued to manage the propaganda.

The jews could be freed from the camps, many of them WWI soldiers themselves, and put to work as soldiers, and the massive russian army could be used to help invade and occupy other countries with Germany as the spearhead. The lesser trained force would come in behind them and keep ground, of which defensive battles (like for example, the Alamo), are far easier to fight for poorly trained troops, than offensive battles defeating hardened enemy structures. An important thing to consider is that aside from the U.S. at the time, medicine was terrible, with the U.S. mass producing tons of penicillin and other medicine that largely prevented the spread of disease and things like infections from wounds. About 5 million German soldiers died out of 13 million, or around 40%, and 12 million were injured, around 90%, while about 40% of Russian soldiers died and 70% were injured, or 9 million killed and 22 million wounded out of about 30 million or so total men. It stands to reason that decent medicine, of which penicillin can be grown in a petri dish from bread mold so it's not exactly a hard thing to mass produce mechanically, or something like shrapnel resistant body armor over most the body, of which 75% of casualties in WWII were due to shrapnel, could have saved enough lives or prevented enough injuries to give them an edge in manpower. The equivalent armor of a steel helmet, about 1mm of steel, over the whole body would only be about 35 pounds, and yet would probably be able to stop the majority of shrapnel and handgun rounds of the war, of which submachine guns were actually widely used in WWII unlike modern wars today which is primarily assault rifles. So it could have saved a lot of lives, and thus increased the relative amount of manpower they have left over. It would have also made them particularly good in close quarters combat or at really long ranges, where the armor might stop a rifle round. Of course most body armor only covered the torso and head at the time, which meant while soldiers survived they couldn't keep on fighting, thus reducing the usefulness of the armor somewhat unless it covered most of the body.

The german military would have benefited by becoming more like the navy, which often operated independently of the high command. The really inefficient military organization and strategies, like for example the german squad being little more than support for a single machine gun instead of executing complex flanking tactics like the americans, could rapidly change, thus allowing for improved effectiveness that came from the Nazi ideology. Nazis actually believed that history was carved out by single important leaders, and thus wanting a single soldier to take the glory of most enemy deaths, instead of allowing the average soldier to excel. This sort of mentality being removed would allow them to change things like theirs squads and other units, thus potentially increasing their success in combat.

[The Two Jerseys]

The BFC was never more than twenty people at a time, with most claiming they joined it purely to try and sabotage the Germans. It would not have accomplished anything.

Goebbels should have went directly to Himmler or whoever was in-charge of the Waffen-SS and formed the BFC much earlier. Preferably right after Dunkirk. Every British POW who wasn't a security threat should've have been enlisted into the BFC and forced to put on a smiley face for the German Press.

Except the POWs won't cooperate, and there's nothing Goebbels can do about it without handing a propaganda own goal to the British on a silver platter.

That would've kept them popular with the UK.

Right up until the British newsreels play the footage from Warsaw and Rotterdam. Again.

The BFC was formed far too late to make any real impact, and was probably only given the go-ahead when German HC started panicking about the idea of the UK opening up a new front in the West. This is one of Hitler's many mistakes.

BFC formed two years before the end of the war.
Only attracted 54 recruits during its entire existence.
Never more than 27 men strong at any point.

But yeah, keep telling yourself that it'll make a difference...

[Risottia]

Being a fascist does not mean you are antisemitic.

Fascism requires racism, as stated by Mussolini and Starace.
Jewishness is a threat to the national identity, as stated by Starace, again.

So, yes, fascism requires antisemitism.