How could the Axis Powers win WW2?

[North Arkana]

Air Supremacy isn't something you "get" it's more like you have to hold. Besides at the time of the proposed landing only two squads in the whole of the Luft were trained in hitting ships. The problem is that the German industry pre-Speer, for a lack of a better term, was a fucking shitshow and could no where near produce the planes needed to maintain AS above the Isles not to mention the valuable fuel being wasted when it can instead go to the Panzer divisions.

Air supremacy only needed to be maintained for a short window of time to allow German troops to land on the island. The British Army was in no position to defeat a German invasion once they got boots on the ground.

Boy, it sure would be weird if there were the equivalent of 11 full strength infantry divisions in the UK during June 1940, post-Battle of France, and a couple hundred tanks, not to mention less conventional anti-invasion preparations.
ohshitwaittherearecallofftheinvasion.jpg

It climbs to 16 divisions by the way, come September. There's also 290 million rounds of .303 ammo ready for use in June 1940, climbing to over 400 million in August.

[Nantoraka]

More planes to spare? In what universe?

At the very beginning of the campaign, in July 1940, Britain had ~600 planes to Germany's ~2,400. Of course, these numbers evened out later, but I believe that Germany always maintained at least a slight numerical advantage, and in these early months, before RAF fighter production amped up, the disparity is obvious.

And, again, in what universe is the poorly equipped Luftwaffe anti-shipping arm stopping the whole Royal Navy from dogpiling the channel so hard they can sink the river barges being used for transport by just using their wakes?

As evidenced above, the Germans had the numerical and technological advantage in the summer/fall of 1940 to manage a combined paratroop/amphibious landing with a small number of forces.

Also, this is derivating further from our timeline, but suppose Germany hadn't invaded Scandinavia; the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe would have been even more capable of securing a beachhead.

Weren't German pilots just terrible and had to take twice as many losses as the British?

[The Grand Duchy Of Nova Capile]

And all the times when the invading force would need supplies and reinforcement.

Yes, I should have acknowledged this in my post, but, considering that German forces were able to maintain cohesive fighting fronts on a minimum of supplies (considering Rommel's African campaign, for example) I am of the opinion that they would have been able to secure enough of Britain for the country to seek peace before they were starved out.

>Kriegsmarine surface fleet doing anything other than looking pretty in their concrete docks
(Image)

I don't have a vast knowledge of WW2 naval intricacies, so I'm content with your polite memery.

[Kowani]

Air supremacy only needed to be maintained for a short window of time to allow German troops to land on the island. The British Army was in no position to defeat a German invasion once they got boots on the ground.

Then what? There's still the Royal Navy and supplying of said troops to worry about.

Obviously, destroying the harbors. Don’t think about it too much.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

And all the times when the invading force would need supplies and reinforcement.

Yes, I should have acknowledged this in my post, but, considering that German forces were able to maintain cohesive fighting fronts on a minimum of supplies (considering Rommel's African campaign, for example) I am of the opinion that they would have been able to secure enough of Britain for the country to seek peace before they were starved out.

>Kriegsmarine surface fleet doing anything other than looking pretty in their concrete docks
(Image)

I don't have a vast knowledge of WW2 naval intricacies, so I'm content with your polite memery.

Yeah the surface Kriegsmarine was not much. The most they could do was go on surface raids here and there and then run from the Royal Navy, or act as a fleet in being to act as a distraction and that is about it.

[Bombadil]

At the very beginning of the campaign, in July 1940, Britain had ~600 planes to Germany's ~2,400. Of course, these numbers evened out later, but I believe that Germany always maintained at least a slight numerical advantage, and in these early months, before RAF fighter production amped up, the disparity is obvious.


As evidenced above, the Germans had the numerical and technological advantage in the summer/fall of 1940 to manage a combined paratroop/amphibious landing with a small number of forces.

Also, this is derivating further from our timeline, but suppose Germany hadn't invaded Scandinavia; the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe would have been even more capable of securing a beachhead.

Weren't German pilots just terrible and had to take twice as many losses as the British?

I don't think they were as bad as all that given they were faced with having to fly over enemy territory, with poorer fuel restrictions as a result, were up against radar, that allowed the RAF to have initial success on attack, and were generally also having to protect bombers.

As I understand the Luftwaffe were simply surprised that the RAF still had planes given German pilots had very much overstated their success at the start, and that skewed estimates.

[Nantoraka]

Air supremacy only needed to be maintained for a short window of time to allow German troops to land on the island. The British Army was in no position to defeat a German invasion once they got boots on the ground.

Boy, it sure would be weird if there were the equivalent of 11 full strength infantry divisions in the UK during June 1940, post-Battle of France, and a couple hundred tanks, not to mention less conventional anti-invasion preparations.
ohshitwaittherearecallofftheinvasion.jpg

It climbs to 16 divisions by the way, come September. There's also 290 million rounds of .303 ammo ready for use in June 1940, climbing to over 400 million in August.

Let's not forget surviving British planes.

And if the planes were all somehow gone? Well, let's also not forget that Britain manufactured millions and millions of molotov cocktails for its citizens to defend England from invasion.
Man, that's a lot of kaboom-boom.

[The South Falls]

German tanks were worthless in the last few months because of the lack of fuel and metal for repairs

[The Legion of Mankind]

Hitler was dumb, don’t invade the Soviets period.

Agreed...if he didn't attack the USSR they might have won

Agreed

[Western Vale Confederacy]

The M13/40 was a decent tank when it rolled out, okay!?

It’s fucking dumb to compare it to a fucking Sherman and go "lol it fucken sucks".

Ok, then let's compare the Carro Armato P 40 to the Sherman. It's almost more than 2 years newer in design, uses inferior riveted, thinner armor, has a weaker gun, weaker engine, moves slower, has an inferior suspension design, and 103 of them were built.

The sheer meme power of Effetto Pronto shells, ‘nuff said.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

Agreed...if he didn't attack the USSR they might have won

Agreed

As has been said however, it was pretty much an inevitable conflict. Neither one was going to let the other be sue to their ideologies being arch enemies, and the Nazi policy of Liblingsraum.

[Wysten]

Agreed...if he didn't attack the USSR they might have won

Agreed

Then he is not Hitler, he's just some grumpy old German Nationalist fighting another semi small scale European War.

[Farnhamia]

Weren't German pilots just terrible and had to take twice as many losses as the British?

I don't think they were as bad as all that given they were faced with having to fly over enemy territory, with poorer fuel restrictions as a result, were up against radar, that allowed the RAF to have initial success on attack, and were generally also having to protect bombers.

As I understand the Luftwaffe were simply surprised that the RAF still had planes given German pilots had very much overstated their success at the start, and that skewed estimates.

*cue the only German pilot joke Farn knows* A Lufthansa pilot approaching Frankfort addresses the tower in German and is told to say again in English. Maybe he's having a bad day but he goes on a rant, "Why must I, a German pilot flying a German plane in German airspace speaking to a German tower speak in English?" Before the stunned air traffic controllers can reply, a very proper British accent breaks in with, "Because you lost the war, old boy."

[North Arkana]

Ok, then let's compare the Carro Armato P 40 to the Sherman. It's almost more than 2 years newer in design, uses inferior riveted, thinner armor, has a weaker gun, weaker engine, moves slower, has an inferior suspension design, and 103 of them were built.

The sheer meme power of Effetto Pronto shells, ‘nuff said.

WW2 era HEAT shells have penetration to the degree of around 80-110% the shell caliber. A 75mm HEAT shell can pierce 82.5mm of armor, line of sight, tops. Which is less than the effective line of sight armor of a Sherman's frontal plate, and also gets about 0 normalization when it comes to shell impact mechanics.

[Ifreann]

Not jumping on the two countries with the largest industrial potential AT THE SAME TIME would have helped.

Not being fascists at all would have helped more.

[Kowani]

Agreed

As has been said however, it was pretty much an inevitable conflict. Neither one was going to let the other be sue to their ideologies being arch enemies, and the Nazi policy of Liblingsraum.

Additionally, Hitler needed oil, and the USSR had that in spades.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

As has been said however, it was pretty much an inevitable conflict. Neither one was going to let the other be sue to their ideologies being arch enemies, and the Nazi policy of Liblingsraum.

Additionally, Hitler needed oil, and the USSR had that in spades.

Also true. Honestly if Germany had waited I think they would be even less successful in fighting the USSR as it would actually be organized and prepared. Not to mention it wouldn't be a for sure thing that Japan would help from the far east given the agreement between them and the Soviets and their focus on China and SEA. Plus a conflict between Japan and the US was likely almost as inevitable as Germany and the USSR.

[Rezmaeristan]

So how likely is the scenario of choking out the UK by conquering the Middle East with the help of Arab and Muslim nationalists? In this case the Axis would focus on Africa and pushing through Egypt. How quick can they get to the Middle East with no Barbarossa happening?

[Bombadil]

So how likely is the scenario of choking out the UK by conquering the Middle East with the help of Arab and Muslim nationalists? In this case the Axis would focus on Africa and pushing through Egypt. How quick can they get to the Middle East with no Barbarossa happening?

Yeah well Italy was supposed to manage that aspect, you can't expect Germany to protect it's left flank, watch for the threat of Russia on the right flank and then divert forces to the ME as well..

..one could argue that history shows Europe was always unconquerable as a whole.

[Norskhavn]

The Axis would've had better chances, I think, if Japan had shown a little more restraint. I've begun to wonder if they fucked up on purpose.

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

Maus don't give a shit, it'll survive anything.

Object 279 outnumbers your Maus.

[Valrifell]

The Axis would've had better chances, I think, if Japan had shown a little more restraint. I've begun to wonder if they fucked up on purpose.

Well, you have to keep in mind that none of the "Axis" powers really liked or respected each other. Hitler, Hiriohito, and Mussolini all had mutually exclusive ideas on who the chosen people were (they all said "mine are" respectively)

IIRC, the relationship between Japan and Germany was particularly chilly, but I don't remember the exact reason for that.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

The Axis would've had better chances, I think, if Japan had shown a little more restraint. I've begun to wonder if they fucked up on purpose.

Well, you have to keep in mind that none of the "Axis" powers really liked or respected each other. Hitler, Hiriohito, and Mussolini all had mutually exclusive ideas on who the chosen people were (they all said "mine are" respectively)

IIRC, the relationship between Japan and Germany was particularly chilly, but I don't remember the exact reason for that.

There’s also the small issue that Italy was actually openly hostile towards Germany as late as the Second Italo-Abyssinian War.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

So how likely is the scenario of choking out the UK by conquering the Middle East with the help of Arab and Muslim nationalists? In this case the Axis would focus on Africa and pushing through Egypt. How quick can they get to the Middle East with no Barbarossa happening?

I think this would actually cause major problems for the the Axis and could potentially lead to conflict between Italy and Germany over who gets what and lead to poor coordination in the campaign, as both nations had interests and they often conflicted.

[Rezmaeristan]

So how likely is the scenario of choking out the UK by conquering the Middle East with the help of Arab and Muslim nationalists? In this case the Axis would focus on Africa and pushing through Egypt. How quick can they get to the Middle East with no Barbarossa happening?

Yeah well Italy was supposed to manage that aspect, you can't expect Germany to protect it's left flank, watch for the threat of Russia on the right flank and then divert forces to the ME as well..

..one could argue that history shows Europe was always unconquerable as a whole.

Russia is a non-concern because of the Non-Aggression Pact. Protecting the Atlantic coast though...