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MRA group NCFM wins case - Draft women, or repeal draft

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

How to proceed?

Draft women
53
42%
Repeal the draft
59
46%
Amend the constitution to allow male only draft
8
6%
Amend the constitution to allow female only draft
4
3%
The supreme court will overturn the ruling
3
2%
 
Total votes : 127

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Ostroeuropa
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MRA group NCFM wins case - Draft women, or repeal draft

Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:04 am

https://timesofsandiego.com/military/20 ... itutional/

A federal judge Friday said that must change — calling the system unconstitutional but not requiring women 18-25 to register*.
U.S. District Judge Gray H. Miller in Houston agreed with the San Diego-based National Coalition for Men and granted its request for summary judgment in a class action suit. “The male-only registration requirement of the Military Selective Service Act, 50 U.S.C. § 3802(a), violates the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution,” says Miller’s “final judgment.”

USA Today noted that the ruling came in the form of a declaratory judgment and not an injunction, “meaning that the court didn’t specifically order the government how to change Selective Service to make it constitutional.”

The paper quoted attorney Angelucci as calling the ruling symbolic to some extent.
“Either they need to get rid of the draft registration, or they need to require women to do the same thing that men do,” he said.


The Either/Or nature of the ruling is the best part of how the lawyers argued imo, and demonstrates the MRM and its commitment to equality. The debate on the draft should focus on rights and responsibilities of a citizen, absent of considerations for sexism, and is not the realm of a gender equality movement to determine. What they have determined is that the draft must be equal if it exists and have advocated on that basis.

Notably, this case was not supported in material terms by any organization outside of the mens rights movement. We'll see how the wider media reports on it as this story develops. (And crucially, whether they acknowledge the MRM they've spent decades demonizing achieved this or whether they just call it the NCFM and don't acknowledge that.).

The ruling might provide a defense from punitive action for men who do not register for the draft should the government fail to amend the rules to include women which could force a declaratory judgement by the courts and take this out of the hands of public debate.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:10 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Grinning Dragon
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Postby Grinning Dragon » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:15 am

The way I see it, since there has been in roads for women in combat roles and other military roles they too should have to sign up for selective service.
Last edited by Grinning Dragon on Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:17 am

Today is a good day.
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:19 am

I’d right rather repeal the draft but if we keep it, yeah equality is equality
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:21 am

Hasn't adding Women to the Draft been a feminist goal?
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:21 am

Vassenor wrote:Hasn't adding Women to the Draft been a feminist goal?


Ending poverty is a libertarian goal :)
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There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:28 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Hasn't adding Women to the Draft been a feminist goal?


Ending poverty is a libertarian goal :)

Well...
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:29 am

Vassenor wrote:Hasn't adding Women to the Draft been a feminist goal?

Doesn’t seem like a particularly high priority goal, if it is. Guess on the To-Do list, it’s down there with affirmative action for sewer maintenance.
Last edited by Ors Might on Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:31 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Hasn't adding Women to the Draft been a feminist goal?


Ending poverty is a libertarian goal :)


I don't follow your logic here.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:35 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:I’d right rather repeal the draft but if we keep it, yeah equality is equality


I'd rather we didn't.

The draft is necessary in the event of invasion or rebellion. As unlikely as an invasion/rebellion is at this point in time, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:36 am

Vassenor wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Ending poverty is a libertarian goal :)


I don't follow your logic here.


Just because you rationalize ways your silly ideology will fix a problem and ignore all evidence that it hasn't fixed it, won't fix it, and so on, doesn't make it really a goal of that ideology. It makes claims it's a goal a face-saving attempt because if you actually gave a shit, you'd be evaluating the reasons your movement has failed to address the problem and be fixing the ideology rather than just screaming;
"TRICKLE DOWN!" over and over.

Feminism cares about mens issues like libertarians care about poverty.
you think just saying "Trickle down economics" is sufficient to prove you are sincere, despite the mountains of evidence your movement makes it worse and your ideas simply dont work the way you think they do.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:37 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
I don't follow your logic here.


Just because you rationalize ways your silly ideology will fix a problem and ignore all evidence that it hasn't fixed it, won't fix it, and so on, doesn't make it really a goal of that ideology. It makes claims it's a goal a face-saving attempt because if you actually gave a shit, you'd be evaluating the reasons your movement has failed to address the problem and be fixing the ideology rather than just screaming;
"TRICKLE DOWN!" over and over.

Feminism cares about mens issues like libertarians care about poverty.
you think just saying "Trickle down economics" is sufficient to prove you are sincere, despite the mountains of evidence your movement makes it worse and your ideas simply dont work the way you think they do.


OK so we're still in your fantasy world where Feminism is only about oppressing men and not actually about getting equal treatment for men and women alike.

Because if I didn't know better I'd say you were getting angry at the idea that your victory is in fact giving the feminists what they want: Equality, even when it's not advantageous.
Last edited by Vassenor on Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Internationalist Bastard
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Postby Internationalist Bastard » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:39 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:I’d right rather repeal the draft but if we keep it, yeah equality is equality


I'd rather we didn't.

The draft is necessary in the event of invasion or rebellion. As unlikely as an invasion/rebellion is at this point in time, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I just really don’t like forcing people into wars
Especially considering we used it in Vietnam
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Page
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Postby Page » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:40 am

Repeal the draft. Forced labor is never acceptable.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:40 am

Vassenor wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Just because you rationalize ways your silly ideology will fix a problem and ignore all evidence that it hasn't fixed it, won't fix it, and so on, doesn't make it really a goal of that ideology. It makes claims it's a goal a face-saving attempt because if you actually gave a shit, you'd be evaluating the reasons your movement has failed to address the problem and be fixing the ideology rather than just screaming;
"TRICKLE DOWN!" over and over.

Feminism cares about mens issues like libertarians care about poverty.
you think just saying "Trickle down economics" is sufficient to prove you are sincere, despite the mountains of evidence your movement makes it worse and your ideas simply dont work the way you think they do.


OK so we're still in your fantasy world where Feminism is only about oppressing men and not actually about getting equal treatment for men and women alike.

Because if I didn't know better I'd say you were getting angry at the idea that your victory is in fact giving the feminists what they want: Equality, even when it's not advantageous.


I'm sure Libertarians genuinely want poor people better off too :)
Just not enough to re-evaluate their dogma and how it doesn't help.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:41 am

Vassenor wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Just because you rationalize ways your silly ideology will fix a problem and ignore all evidence that it hasn't fixed it, won't fix it, and so on, doesn't make it really a goal of that ideology. It makes claims it's a goal a face-saving attempt because if you actually gave a shit, you'd be evaluating the reasons your movement has failed to address the problem and be fixing the ideology rather than just screaming;
"TRICKLE DOWN!" over and over.

Feminism cares about mens issues like libertarians care about poverty.
you think just saying "Trickle down economics" is sufficient to prove you are sincere, despite the mountains of evidence your movement makes it worse and your ideas simply dont work the way you think they do.


OK so we're still in your fantasy world where Feminism is only about oppressing men and not actually about getting equal treatment for men and women alike.

Because if I didn't know better I'd say you were getting angry at the idea that your victory is in fact giving the feminists what they want: Equality, even when it's not advantageous.

It’d be easier to believe that feminists want equality whether or not it benefits women if they put some effort into achieving that.
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Page
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Postby Page » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:41 am

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:I’d right rather repeal the draft but if we keep it, yeah equality is equality


I'd rather we didn't.

The draft is necessary in the event of invasion or rebellion. As unlikely as an invasion/rebellion is at this point in time, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


If the government tries to make me perform forced labor because of a rebellion, I'm probably going to join the rebels.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:42 am

Page wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
I'd rather we didn't.

The draft is necessary in the event of invasion or rebellion. As unlikely as an invasion/rebellion is at this point in time, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


If the government tries to make me perform forced labor because of a rebellion, I'm probably going to join the rebels.

It’d be a real pain in the ass for you if those rebels were the Fascist-Stalinists Coalition :p
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Page
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Postby Page » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:45 am

MRA's are correct in that it's bullshit that men can be forced into labor as soldiers while women can't, but the solution isn't drafting women, it's abolishing the draft.

There is a different between justice and equality. Women being drafted is equal injustice. No one being drafted is justice.

Black people are disproportionately subject to police brutality, but if the police started brutalizing white people in equal numbers, that isn't justice. Equality does not automatically make justice.
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:45 am

Repeal the draft.

But, you know, if we're going to have it equality is nice and all. But repeal it.
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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:46 am

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
I'd rather we didn't.

The draft is necessary in the event of invasion or rebellion. As unlikely as an invasion/rebellion is at this point in time, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.

I just really don’t like forcing people into wars
Especially considering we used it in Vietnam


Vietnam was an abuse of the purpose of the service.

Page wrote:Repeal the draft. Forced labor is never acceptable.


Hey look, fearmongering.

Page wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
I'd rather we didn't.

The draft is necessary in the event of invasion or rebellion. As unlikely as an invasion/rebellion is at this point in time, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


If the government tries to make me perform forced labor because of a rebellion, I'm probably going to join the rebels.


Oof. You kinda shot yourself in the foot here.

Better hope those rebels share your political, economic, and philosophical views.
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Page
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Postby Page » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:46 am

Ors Might wrote:
Page wrote:
If the government tries to make me perform forced labor because of a rebellion, I'm probably going to join the rebels.

It’d be a real pain in the ass for you if those rebels were the Fascist-Stalinists Coalition :p


If both sides are evil then I'll take up in some criminal enterprise that subverts both. Or just leave the country, depends on what kind of mood I'm in and if I've had my coffee that morning.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:47 am

Personally I think draft legislation should be amended and only applicable in the event of enemy soldiers actually setting foot in the country, and should be amended specifically to facilitate guerilla warfare.

Namely;
"We officially recognize all citizens as duty bound to resist the occupation through sabotage, blah blah blah, or open warfare. Those wishing to fight back with lethal force should wear this official symbol during active operations in order to abide by international law requiring open identification as a soldier. We officially recognize the right of citizens to form their own militias and military structure under the authority of this government provided they adhere to these rules. (I.E, you and your five friends can form a band.). The national draft act allows for weapons caches to be placed in strategic areas and for distribution of weaponry, as well as funding undercover trainers and sleeper agents who will attempt to contact resistance cells and direct them to these caches."


And so on, and so on.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:47 am

Page wrote:MRA's are correct in that it's bullshit that men can be forced into labor as soldiers while women can't, but the solution isn't drafting women, it's abolishing the draft.

There is a different between justice and equality. Women being drafted is equal injustice. No one being drafted is justice.

Black people are disproportionately subject to police brutality, but if the police started brutalizing white people in equal numbers, that isn't justice. Equality does not automatically make justice.


Are you honestly comparing police brutality to conscription?

Lol.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sun Feb 24, 2019 7:48 am

Page wrote:MRA's are correct in that it's bullshit that men can be forced into labor as soldiers while women can't, but the solution isn't drafting women, it's abolishing the draft.

There is a different between justice and equality. Women being drafted is equal injustice. No one being drafted is justice.

Black people are disproportionately subject to police brutality, but if the police started brutalizing white people in equal numbers, that isn't justice. Equality does not automatically make justice.


The MRM is an equality movement. There are differing notions of justice, all we demand is consistent application.
The majority are in favor of abolition of the draft, but some MRAs note geographic distinctions suhc as baltic states neighboring Russia and so on whose security in part legitimately depends on the draft, etc.
Ostro.MOV

There is an out of control trolley speeding towards Jeremy Bentham, who is tied to the track. You can pull the lever to cause the trolley to switch tracks, but on the other track is Immanuel Kant. Bentham is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Critique of Pure Reason. Kant is clutching the only copy in the universe of The Principles of Moral Legislation. Both men are shouting at you that they have recently started to reconsider their ethical stances.

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