US Considers Reparations For Slavery

[Ifreann]

I'm really just using inheritance to help you all understand how people today can be suffering from slavery even though they personally were not enslaved, and likewise how people today can be benefiting from slavery without personally having owned slaves. That doesn't mean that reparations would necessarily be doled out on those terms.

Yeah, it was a bad comparison. The thing is this is what welfare is for, to provide for the less fortunate. Making those who had fortunes and benefits in the past, have not so much as a advantage in life.

I guess we'll just have to err on the side of generosity, then.

So your suggestion is to give money to a entire race of people. How well do you think its going to go over with other races? Black folk have come a long way to equality, but when they get this reparations, will it be equal still? Do you think Mexicans and Asians are going to smile upon the black mans new fortunes? Not really, more like their going to gun for reparations too.

Cool, I'm down for that. Why even stop there? Make reparations for all the crimes. Redistribute all the wealth \o|

Supposing that was how it worked, it would be the same reason that you are getting taxed for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars even though you didn't start either of them.

We pay the military for our protection, but sometimes the military does things that are more then protection. What do we pay reparations for?

To repair harm, obviously.

[Skarten]

Tell me one way in which people are still suffering because of slavery even though they haven't been enslaved.

It's perfectly simple. Slaves worked their whole lives and, through no fault of their own, had no inheritance to give their children. Those children, therefore, started their lives with approximately nothing, and would have been lucky to come to the end of their lives with much of an inheritance to give their children. And so on in that fashion until today. And this all compounds when you realise that the first generation of blacks born after the abolition of slavery were not born into a perfectly egalitarian post-racial society. Other racist policies kept them from accruing wealth.

Well, it's been over a century. America wasn't the most fair against them for some time later still, but it's not like it didn't allow them to get any job at all. So, no, not an excuse.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Yeah, it was a bad comparison. The thing is this is what welfare is for, to provide for the less fortunate. Making those who had fortunes and benefits in the past, have not so much as a advantage in life.

So your suggestion is to give money to a entire race of people. How well do you think its going to go over with other races? Black folk have come a long way to equality, but when they get this reparations, will it be equal still? Do you think Mexicans and Asians are going to smile upon the black mans new fortunes? Not really, more like their going to gun for reparations too.

Cool, I'm down for that. Why even stop there? Make reparations for all the crimes. Redistribute all the wealth \o|

Blitheringly stupid. As I pointed out welfare already fulfills this role of “equalizing”. If someone wants to be succesful and wealthy in life nowadays, do well in school. And before you make a school arguement, yes, I know not all schools are equal, perhaps that’s a better way then to renew race tensions by giving certain races benefits, because their skin color says their ancestors were taken advantage of.

We pay the military for our protection, but sometimes the military does things that are more then protection. What do we pay reparations for?

To repair harm, obviously.

[/quote]
Time and welfare has done enough to allow any man no matter the color, to become profitable in life. Perhaps mending the education system by bringing quality education across the nation would be better suited, instead of dumping $50 dollars at every black mans door. Imagine if every man can benefit, doesnt that make it better?

[Kowani]

It's perfectly simple. Slaves worked their whole lives and, through no fault of their own, had no inheritance to give their children. Those children, therefore, started their lives with approximately nothing, and would have been lucky to come to the end of their lives with much of an inheritance to give their children. And so on in that fashion until today. And this all compounds when you realise that the first generation of blacks born after the abolition of slavery were not born into a perfectly egalitarian post-racial society. Other racist policies kept them from accruing wealth.

Well, it's been over a century. America wasn't the most fair against them for some time later still, but it's not like it didn't allow them to get any job at all. So, no, not an excuse.

When you add in all the other ways that society worked to keep Blacks down, then this statement isn’t really true.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Well, it's been over a century. America wasn't the most fair against them for some time later still, but it's not like it didn't allow them to get any job at all. So, no, not an excuse.

When you add in all the other ways that society worked to keep Blacks down, then this statement isn’t really true.

Uh... I think you miss read that...

[Sicaris]

If Black people were to be paid reparations for slavery, should Native Americans have to be paid for what happened in history? Should Chinese people be paid for US involvement in the Boxer Rebellion? Should Hispanics be given money for having Texas break away from them? Should Christians have to be paid for oppression in the Middle East?

It makes utterly no sense.

inb4 “hyuckhyuckhyuck nice strawman you freaking NAZI!”

[Skarten]

If Black people were to be paid reparations for slavery, should Native Americans have to be paid for what happened in history? Should Chinese people be paid for US involvement in the Boxer Rebellion? Should Hispanics be given money for having Texas break away from them? Should Christians have to be paid for oppression in the Middle East?

It makes utterly no sense.

inb4 “hyuckhyuckhyuck nice strawman you freaking NAZI!”

Well, i mean, i don't like reparations, but christians are still being opressed in the middle east.

[Ifreann]

I'm really just using inheritance to help you all understand how people today can be suffering from slavery even though they personally were not enslaved, and likewise how people today can be benefiting from slavery without personally having owned slaves. That doesn't mean that reparations would necessarily be doled out on those terms.

I guess we'll just have to err on the side of generosity, then.

---

Supposing that was how it worked, it would be the same reason that you are getting taxed for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars even though you didn't start either of them.

Ah so I’m paying for these things in the same way I paid for those two wars of imperialism I shouldn’t have paid for

And the same way you're paying for everything the government does, good or bad.

Don't tell me you're one of these "taxes are theft" people now.

---

It's perfectly simple. Slaves worked their whole lives and, through no fault of their own, had no inheritance to give their children. Those children, therefore, started their lives with approximately nothing, and would have been lucky to come to the end of their lives with much of an inheritance to give their children. And so on in that fashion until today. And this all compounds when you realise that the first generation of blacks born after the abolition of slavery were not born into a perfectly egalitarian post-racial society. Other racist policies kept them from accruing wealth.

Well, it's been over a century. America wasn't the most fair against them for some time later still, but it's not like it didn't allow them to get any job at all. So, no, not an excuse.

You asked how people are suffering from slavery despite not having been enslaved and I told you. Your response is "Well we could have been even more racist". Yeah, I guess you could have. So what?

---

Cool, I'm down for that. Why even stop there? Make reparations for all the crimes. Redistribute all the wealth \o|

Blitheringly stupid. As I pointed out welfare already fulfills this role of “equalizing”.

Clearly not. Or did you not read the OP?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/21/us/politics/2020-democrats-race-policy.html

Even among the 2020 Democrats who stopped short of endorsing reparations, several have laid out robust policies aimed at closing the gap in wealth between black and white families. Scholars estimate that black families in America today earn just $57.30 for every $100 in income earned by white families, according to the Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey. For every $100 in white family wealth, black families hold just $5.04.

White families having twenty times more wealth than black families doesn't seem especially equal to me.

If someone wants to be succesful and wealthy in life nowadays, do well in school.

Such refreshing naivete.

And before you make a school arguement, yes, I know not all schools are equal, perhaps that’s a better way then to renew race tensions by giving certain races benefits, because their skin color says their ancestors were taken advantage of.

That'll happen when your system of slavery is racist, and is followed up with other racist policies.

To repair harm, obviously.

Time and welfare has done enough to allow any man no matter the color, to become profitable in life.

Again. White families have twenty times more wealth than black families.

Perhaps mending the education system by bringing quality education across the nation would be better suited, instead of dumping $50 dollars at every black mans door. Imagine if every man can benefit, doesnt that make it better?

If there's only $1 billion, that's not going to do much to improve America's schools. I'd suggest redistributing more wealth. Much more.

[Ifreann]

If Black people were to be paid reparations for slavery, should Native Americans have to be paid for what happened in history? Should Chinese people be paid for US involvement in the Boxer Rebellion? Should Hispanics be given money for having Texas break away from them? Should Christians have to be paid for oppression in the Middle East?

Other than Mexico losing Texas, sure, go for it.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Blitheringly stupid. As I pointed out welfare already fulfills this role of “equalizing”.

Clearly not. Or did you not read the OP?

Yeah I read it, and my response is “wait isn’t it better for everyone if we focus on something that actually matters, like improve education?”

The major defense for this blithering stupid idea is, that black folk didn’t have a fair start. Sure, that’s true, but that’s also true for any Russian, Italian, or Irish. When it comes down to it, everyone can benefit if we improve and spend more on education. Spending money on one group, a measly $50 for each individual no less, isn’t going to help anyone

[Sicaris]

If Black people were to be paid reparations for slavery, should Native Americans have to be paid for what happened in history? Should Chinese people be paid for US involvement in the Boxer Rebellion? Should Hispanics be given money for having Texas break away from them? Should Christians have to be paid for oppression in the Middle East?

Other than Mexico losing Texas, sure, go for it.

But why? There is no basis for it.

[Genivaria]

"Uh guys this is just a few people proposing thi-"
"DEM FUCKIN DEMOCRATS ARE ALL INSANE!!!"

[Ifreann]

Clearly not. Or did you not read the OP?

Yeah I read it, and my response is “wait isn’t it better for everyone if we focus on something that actually matters, like improve education?”

You don't think it actually matters that black families are vastly poorer than white families?

Weird flex, but okay.

The major defense for this blithering stupid idea is, that black folk didn’t have a fair start. Sure, that’s true, but that’s also true for any Russian, Italian, or Irish. When it comes down to it, everyone can benefit if we improve and spend more on education. Spending money on one group, a measly $50 for each individual no less, isn’t going to help anyone

Reminder that $50 is an amount you made up, so if it's measly that's because you made up a measly amount. And the $50 to every black man, and it was also you who specified black men, would amount to about $1 billion. An extra $1 billion won't make a blind bit of difference to America's education system. It won't benefit everyone. It will barely benefit anyone.

[Ifreann]

Other than Mexico losing Texas, sure, go for it.

But why? There is no basis for it.

The basis is all those things you said. The crimes and the oppression and the Bad Stuff™.

[Galloism]

Tell me one way in which people are still suffering because of slavery even though they haven't been enslaved.

It's perfectly simple. Slaves worked their whole lives and, through no fault of their own, had no inheritance to give their children. Those children, therefore, started their lives with approximately nothing, and would have been lucky to come to the end of their lives with much of an inheritance to give their children. And so on in that fashion until today. And this all compounds when you realise that the first generation of blacks born after the abolition of slavery were not born into a perfectly egalitarian post-racial society. Other racist policies kept them from accruing wealth.

While I agree inheritance effects are real, it's a fairly suspicious line of argument for reparations based on racial lines.

After all, there's plenty of white people who came to America in the early 1900s with but $5 to their names and had no inheritance back in Europe and we don't see the generational effects on them that we see with our black community. There's something else at play here (well, multiple somethings) that reparations will not fix. Because if inheritance was the only factor, that would have been countermanded by economics in 50-75 years, long after the civil war was over.

(Your point about society not being perfectly egalitarian after the end of slavery is on point, but it's still on point now, and reparations won't fix that.)

[Ifreann]

It's perfectly simple. Slaves worked their whole lives and, through no fault of their own, had no inheritance to give their children. Those children, therefore, started their lives with approximately nothing, and would have been lucky to come to the end of their lives with much of an inheritance to give their children. And so on in that fashion until today. And this all compounds when you realise that the first generation of blacks born after the abolition of slavery were not born into a perfectly egalitarian post-racial society. Other racist policies kept them from accruing wealth.

While I agree inheritance effects are real, it's a fairly suspicious line of argument for reparations based on racial lines.

After all, there's plenty of white people who came to America in the early 1900s with but $5 to their names and had no inheritance back in Europe and we don't see the generational effects on them that we see with our black community. There's something else at play here (well, multiple somethings) that reparations will not fix. Because if inheritance was the only factor, that would have been countermanded by economics in 50-75 years, long after the civil war was over.

(Your point about society not being perfectly egalitarian after the end of slavery is on point, but it's still on point now, and reparations won't fix that.)

Yeah, America, and also everywhere else, need to do a lot of things before we achieve the promised land of sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows.

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

Well, i mean, i don't like reparations, but christians are still being opressed in the middle east.

DEUS VULT! reTAKE THE HOLY LAND!

[Nordengrund]

Heck, I don’t even know if my family owned slaves. I doubt it, becuase they were pretty poor at the time, but there could’ve been at least one ancestor who did.

[Galloism]

While I agree inheritance effects are real, it's a fairly suspicious line of argument for reparations based on racial lines.

After all, there's plenty of white people who came to America in the early 1900s with but $5 to their names and had no inheritance back in Europe and we don't see the generational effects on them that we see with our black community. There's something else at play here (well, multiple somethings) that reparations will not fix. Because if inheritance was the only factor, that would have been countermanded by economics in 50-75 years, long after the civil war was over.

(Your point about society not being perfectly egalitarian after the end of slavery is on point, but it's still on point now, and reparations won't fix that.)

Yeah, America, and also everywhere else, need to do a lot of things before we achieve the promised land of sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows.

And, perhaps more relevantly, reparations will likely lead to less being done on that front instead of more.

After all, let's suppose we did it. We give... oh what's the average inheritance in the US, after debt? 20k? Let's say we give every black person $20,000.

The next time we talk about racial inequality, how easy will it be to say "We fixed the low hand you got from being slaves, what more do you want?" and ignore the problem? After all you implied you "fixed" the lasting effects of slavery by compensating them for it. Now they should be equal to us right, and any complaints in the future are merely sour grapes that they didn't even use what we gave them properly.

That's the type of argument you'll engender, and it will persuade many.

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

We should work to fix racial economic gaps, but I don't think this is the right way to do it. Doing more to help poor people across the board would be better in my opinion, since at the very least it would probably face less opposition (instead of the "my family never owned slaves!" argument, you'd just be dealing with the libertarians who oppose welfare in general), and it would most likely do more to fix the actual problem at hand - that problem being massive wealth gaps.

[Ifreann]

Yeah, America, and also everywhere else, need to do a lot of things before we achieve the promised land of sunshine, lollipops, and rainbows.

And, perhaps more relevantly, reparations will likely lead to less being done on that front instead of more.

After all, let's suppose we did it. We give... oh what's the average inheritance in the US, after debt? 20k? Let's say we give every black person $20,000.

The next time we talk about racial inequality, how easy will it be to say "We fixed the low hand you got from being slaves, what more do you want?" and ignore the problem? After all you implied you "fixed" the lasting effects of slavery by compensating them for it. Now they should be equal to us right, and any complaints in the future are merely sour grapes that they didn't even use what we gave them properly.

That's the type of argument you'll engender, and it will persuade many.

That's the type of argument you already hear, except it's Obama being president or blacks being allowed to vote, or slavery having been abolished. Many people are already persuaded that there is no racial inequality, no systemic injustice, only individuals who succeed or fail because of their individual efforts. I expect that every step towards equality had been met with cries of "What? Wasn't the last step enough?", I can only assume that every future step will be as well.

[Galloism]

And, perhaps more relevantly, reparations will likely lead to less being done on that front instead of more.

After all, let's suppose we did it. We give... oh what's the average inheritance in the US, after debt? 20k? Let's say we give every black person $20,000.

The next time we talk about racial inequality, how easy will it be to say "We fixed the low hand you got from being slaves, what more do you want?" and ignore the problem? After all you implied you "fixed" the lasting effects of slavery by compensating them for it. Now they should be equal to us right, and any complaints in the future are merely sour grapes that they didn't even use what we gave them properly.

That's the type of argument you'll engender, and it will persuade many.

That's the type of argument you already hear, except it's Obama being president or blacks being allowed to vote, or slavery having been abolished. Many people are already persuaded that there is no racial inequality, no systemic injustice, only individuals who succeed or fail because of their individual efforts. I expect that every step towards equality had been met with cries of "What? Wasn't the last step enough?", I can only assume that every future step will be as well.

Except in this case we're saying "Slavery costed $X in damages, so here's $X." You applied a specific monetary value to the damage, and corrected it. It's concrete and visible, so no one should ever ever bring up slavery again, because we corrected for it.

Sort of like if someone crashed into your house. You sue in court, and get $150,000 in damages. You lose the right to complain about how much lifetime impact from the housal impact, because that impact has been compensated for monetarily and fairly.

[Major-Tom]

I just don't see this having any tangible effects. I'd rather have elected officials and communities work on fanning the flames of racial intolerance that still exist in our country, while simultaneously supporting legislative actions that broadly help all Americans entrenched in poverty, which as a result, would help a sizable number of African Americans.

One can believe that there is a systemic societal hindrance that harms African-Americans while simultaneously realizing that just "throwing money at it" will really achieve very little. It's not a solution.

[Skarten]

Ah so I’m paying for these things in the same way I paid for those two wars of imperialism I shouldn’t have paid for

And the same way you're paying for everything the government does, good or bad.

Don't tell me you're one of these "taxes are theft" people now.

---

Well, it's been over a century. America wasn't the most fair against them for some time later still, but it's not like it didn't allow them to get any job at all. So, no, not an excuse.

You asked how people are suffering from slavery despite not having been enslaved and I told you. Your response is "Well we could have been even more racist". Yeah, I guess you could have. So what?

---

Blitheringly stupid. As I pointed out welfare already fulfills this role of “equalizing”.

Clearly not. Or did you not read the OP?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/21/us/politics/2020-democrats-race-policy.html

White families having twenty times more wealth than black families doesn't seem especially equal to me.

If someone wants to be succesful and wealthy in life nowadays, do well in school.

Such refreshing naivete.

And before you make a school arguement, yes, I know not all schools are equal, perhaps that’s a better way then to renew race tensions by giving certain races benefits, because their skin color says their ancestors were taken advantage of.

That'll happen when your system of slavery is racist, and is followed up with other racist policies.

Time and welfare has done enough to allow any man no matter the color, to become profitable in life.

Again. White families have twenty times more wealth than black families.

Perhaps mending the education system by bringing quality education across the nation would be better suited, instead of dumping $50 dollars at every black mans door. Imagine if every man can benefit, doesnt that make it better?

If there's only $1 billion, that's not going to do much to improve America's schools. I'd suggest redistributing more wealth. Much more.

Are you serious? I don't think it's humanly possible to miss the point as much as you've done without it being on purpose. My response wasn't "We could've been more racist", it was "If your ancestors couldn't bother to find work after they were freed, then that's their problem, and it's not white people's fault you didn't get inheritance"

[Skarten]

And, perhaps more relevantly, reparations will likely lead to less being done on that front instead of more.

After all, let's suppose we did it. We give... oh what's the average inheritance in the US, after debt? 20k? Let's say we give every black person $20,000.

The next time we talk about racial inequality, how easy will it be to say "We fixed the low hand you got from being slaves, what more do you want?" and ignore the problem? After all you implied you "fixed" the lasting effects of slavery by compensating them for it. Now they should be equal to us right, and any complaints in the future are merely sour grapes that they didn't even use what we gave them properly.

That's the type of argument you'll engender, and it will persuade many.

That's the type of argument you already hear, except it's Obama being president or blacks being allowed to vote, or slavery having been abolished. Many people are already persuaded that there is no racial inequality, no systemic injustice, only individuals who succeed or fail because of their individual efforts. I expect that every step towards equality had been met with cries of "What? Wasn't the last step enough?", I can only assume that every future step will be as well.

Of course they're going to say that. Becase you people keep moving the goalpost. It was fine until a point, but now it's just getting annoying.

EDIT: I know you people are probably going to scream at me, so i'll just say it, by fine i mean that until actual equal rights were achieved, it was good. Now that it's going into the "Reparations" realm, that's when it becomes bad.