France Considers Anti-Anti-Zionist Bill

[Tornado Queendom]

Obviously, France hates free speech. Germany is their ***kisser, when they SHOULD just scrap their relations with France. Italy and the Visegrad are the future, and I wish that Italy ran the EU. This is because Italy is the only major EU power to be able to say "No" to the stupid EU demands, and they are willing to fight back when France screws up like they've done with this bill banning Zionism and Germany inevitably tries to copy that screw-up.

[Sapientia Et Bellum]

Fine by me. Just trying to stop people from hiding hate under different names.

Another day, another socialist tyrant

[Loben]

Fine by me. Just trying to stop people from hiding hate under different names.

you first.

[Len Hyet]

Fine by me. Just trying to stop people from hiding hate under different names.

Another day, another socialist tyrant

Aren't you a fascist? Not really in a position to yell about tyranny if so.

[New Sukberia]

This will backfire and make people dislike Israel more as banning disagreeing with Israel would cause people to become more suspicious

Yup, Macron is screwing up bigtime.

Time to fetch the Guillotines back

[Free Arabian Nation]

Another day, another socialist tyrant

Aren't you a fascist? Not really in a position to yell about tyranny if so.

No, he just RPs as one.

[Len Hyet]

Aren't you a fascist? Not really in a position to yell about tyranny if so.

No, he just RPs as one.

Ah my mistake. Hard to tell sometimes.

[Andsed]

Fine by me. Just trying to stop people from hiding hate under different names.

Opposing Israel is not hating Jews. It is opposing a country you think is doing something wrong. Is hating America hating all Americans now? This law is just suppressing free speech and will only serve to fuel anti Semitics

[Astoriya]

This will backfire and make people dislike Israel more as banning disagreeing with Israel would cause people to become more suspicious

Yup, Macron is screwing up bigtime.

Time to fetch the Guillotines back

That'd be a stupid idea, to be honest - for obvious reasons
sorry for insult

[El-Amin Caliphate]

[Sebenica]

Gotta love the times we live in: If you even dare criticize Israel you are a filthy, degenerate racist!
This anti-Zionist bill essentially makes it illegal to question Israel.
What the hell have we come to?

[Crylante]

As much as there may be an issue with anti-Semites using "Zionist" in stead of "Jew" to try and mask their anti-Semitism, I feel this is not the way to go about it and will merely trivialise actual acts of prejudice and discrimination against Jewish people. There is a difference between ranting about the "Zionist-controlled media" and saying that you aren't a supporter of the State of Israel.

And if it's extended to include criticism of Israel and it's actions, that makes it much worse. The Israeli government has committed numerous atrocities which it should be called out for by the international community, and while I do support the right of Israel to exist I am not a fan of many actions of the Israeli government and would also like to see a sovereign Palestine.

[Proctopeo]

So basically they want to make it illegal to protest against a political entity.

Yeah, no.

On the other hand, many are using the "it’s anti-Zionism, not anti-Semitism!" excuse to actually be anti-Semitic, so it really isn’t flowers and pink on the other side of the fence.

Yeah.
Though the anti-semites who hide behind the banner of anti-Zionism are typically pretty easy to root out, so this isn't really purposeful IMO.
But France is France...

[Vassenor]

Obviously, France hates free speech. Germany is their ***kisser, when they SHOULD just scrap their relations with France. Italy and the Visegrad are the future, and I wish that Italy ran the EU. This is because Italy is the only major EU power to be able to say "No" to the stupid EU demands, and they are willing to fight back when France screws up and Germany tries to copy that screw-up.

OK, so what do any of those things have to do with the subject of this thread?

[SD_Film Artists]

Is it just me, or has there been a lot of threads about freedom of speech and stuff?

Freezed peach is good for a healthy balanced diet

I'd support this law if and only if it is written so that it only prohibited using anti-Zionism as a proxy for anti-semitism. Under no circumstances should it be illegal to legitimately criticize a nation's government, but at the same time, the writers of the law do have something of a point.

Indeed that's the difficult part; legislating against language when it's really what's written between the lines which counts. I guess a judge would have to consider the context.

[Trumptonium1]

I'm sure banning criticism of Israel will totally not fuel anti-Semitic conspiracy theories and help the far right.

Came on here to literally say the same thing.

There should be a like button or something.

This doesn't surprise me from Parent 1 and All Illegals Become Citizens At Age 16 country tbh. France has been going down the drain for a long time. It's just been overshadowed by Italy's freefall.

[Tornado Queendom]

Obviously, France hates free speech. Germany is their ***kisser, when they SHOULD just scrap their relations with France. Italy and the Visegrad are the future, and I wish that Italy ran the EU. This is because Italy is the only major EU power to be able to say "No" to the stupid EU demands, and they are willing to fight back when France screws up and Germany tries to copy that screw-up.

OK, so what do any of those things have to do with the subject of this thread?

They're banning Anti-zionism, and this is referring to how this isn't the first time they've done something like this.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Funny, they're trying to fight anti-semitism by making it illegal to criticize even political entities controlled by Jews, as if that won't further fuel the idea that Jews have an unreasonable amount of political influence in the world.

[SD_Film Artists]

Gotta love the times we live in: If you even dare criticize Israel you are a filthy, degenerate racist!
This anti-Zionist bill essentially makes it illegal to question Israel.
What the hell have we come to?

One of the MPs said that it will be centred on 'denying Israel's right to exist' rather than simply criticising the Israeli government, though they weren't clear on if you had to be specifically recorded denying Israel's right to exist or if a general anti-Israel agenda is enough to assume guilt. That and it was one MP rather than the finalised bill.

[The Sherpa Empire]

People need to be able to criticize things they disagree with. That's necessary for political discourse.

Israel already gets allowed more slack than it should because people are afraid of looking antisemitic if they criticize it. Some antisemites do use anti-Zionist talking points as dog whistle, but there is also an ongoing problem with legitimate criticism being written off alongside the dog whistle.

Even if some people do start veering into antisemitic dog whistle, people have a right to be wrong in public.

[The Sherpa Empire]

Gotta love the times we live in: If you even dare criticize Israel you are a filthy, degenerate racist!
This anti-Zionist bill essentially makes it illegal to question Israel.
What the hell have we come to?

One of the MPs said that it will be centred on 'denying Israel's right to exist' rather than simply criticising the Israeli government, though they weren't clear on if you had to be specifically recorded denying Israel's right to exist or if a general anti-Israel agenda is enough to assume guilt. That and it was one MP rather than the finalised bill.

Denying Israel's right to exist should also be allowed.

[Shofercia]

Yes, anti-zionism not just anti-semitism.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190220-fr ... sm-illegal

A group of French lawmakers proposed a bill on Monday that would make anti-Zionism a criminal offence in the same way that anti-Semitism is illegal in France. But many argue that opposition to Israel is not comparable to anti-Semitism.

Sylvain Maillard, one of the French lawmakers behind the proposal to criminalise anti-Zionism, has rejected accusations that his bill conflates the two issues.

“You can criticise the Israeli government, but not question the state’s right to exist,” he said.“No one is questioning the France or Germany’s right to exist.”

“We know that [French comic] Dieudonné and [French far-right author] Alain Soral, both of whom have been convicted for inciting hatred against Jews, have adopted the habit of substituting the word ‘Zionist’ for ‘Jew’ and ‘anti-Zionist’ for ‘anti-Semite’ to avoid legal troubles,” Vidal said.

https://www.france24.com/en/20190220-ma ... ti-zionism

France will additionally take steps to define "anti-Zionism as a modern-day form of anti-Semitism", Macron told the French Jewish groups gathered on Wednesday. The definition is in line with that advocated by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance, Macron said.

Would you support such a law?
I have mixed feelings on this as outlawing anti-zionism could go a long way to stamping out anti-semitism by removing the loophole of racists using anti-zionist movements as a safe harbour. However it's also a blunt tool as depending on how the bill is worded it could end up criminalising honest, non-racist criticism of Israel; effectively introducing a 'crime of opinion'.

For example, would protesting against illegal settlements be criminalised or would you have to specifically deny Israel's right to exist? Also would anti-zionist jews be anti-semitic?

In short, it seems well-meaning but difficult to enforce without becoming draconian.

"Must distract the public from Macron's horrific economic policies" seems to be the new French motto. When's the next election in France?

[SD_Film Artists]

One of the MPs said that it will be centred on 'denying Israel's right to exist' rather than simply criticising the Israeli government, though they weren't clear on if you had to be specifically recorded denying Israel's right to exist or if a general anti-Israel agenda is enough to assume guilt. That and it was one MP rather than the finalised bill.

Denying Israel's right to exist should also be allowed.

But then you're into the symantics of meaning the Israeli people or just the state? And if the state/territory is fair game then why even pretend to have the moral high-horse if we're just swapping land-grabs? I'm not actually directing those questions at you BTW, it's just an example of the circular logic that follows the issue.

[DACOROMANIA]

Looking weird. If a cemetery had some wrong paintings that doesn't mean "anti-zionism". Painting a Jewish cemetery in France or elsewhere with a Swastika is "anti-semitism" as a principle.
Confusion on these recent news will increase radical ideas more than what's today. Two events (if you seen the Media) on the cemetery presented above and this bill may look like there is a Conspiracy at high level.

Some "anti-zionist" people, now being considered also as "anti-semitist" people, who may think radically that Israel today isn't in a good way or even that there may be the place of a future "antichrist", they'll think more convinced on that subject and will promote more intense such "ideas".
That really may look in that way, two TV news so recently one to another... and some "radical people"... what do you think that may happen ?

This bill is not a good idea because all forms of violence are already punished by the law.
Will you go be arrested just for what you say wrong about a political entity? "Is France a vassal to Israel?" may question someone.

[The Sherpa Empire]

Denying Israel's right to exist should also be allowed.

But then you're into the symantics of meaning the Israeli people or just the state? And if the state/territory is fair game then why even pretend to have the moral high-horse if we're just swapping land-grabs? I'm not actually directing those questions at you BTW, it's just an example of the circular logic that follows the issue.

The people who deny Israel's right to exist get to decide how they want to justify it. Justifying it is not the government's job because it's not an official government position.