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The Future of Secularism

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The Future of Secularism

Postby Page » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:36 am

What will become of secularism? Will it grow, fade, or will the religious demographics of the future be not so different than those of today?

These days, many say that the future of secularism is at risk because religious people tend to procreate more so than secular people. The statistics back this claim up, but it's worth a reminder that religion is not genetic. It does not necessarily "take." If two Asians have a child, the child will always be of Asian descent. But when two Muslims have a child, the child may not become a Muslim, or may abandon the religion at a later time in their life.

I'm an atheist, my parents were Roman Catholic. Most atheists, agnostics, and "nones" I know came from religious families. Just because religious people procreate does not guarantee their success in perpetuating their religion.

How else can secularism spread if not through procreation? I would argue that secularism has an intrinsic allure. That many are attracted to the opportunity to do things their religion forbids. And when it comes to migrants from religious backgrounds living in the West, those who keep entirely to their own groups seem to be fewer in number than those who integrate.

As an American living in Germany, I have encountered many refugees and migrants over the last few years. I noticed quite a lot of people from Muslim backgrounds would eat, drink, and smoke during Ramadan. I've seen a great deal of women from Arab countries that do not wear hijabs at all (obviously not all Arabs are Muslims, some are Christians, Jews, secular, or something other, but the vast majority do come from Muslim families). And though I live in a city with a huge refugee population, I see at most one niqab or burqa for every thousand people I pass on the streets.

I contend that secularism is not in such great danger as some think, that far more migrants in the West integrate than not, that a not insignificant amount of religious people's children will become secular, and that there are more adults that abandon religion than convert from secularism to a religion.

I further contend that secularism is under-reported on surveys because most surveys do not distinguish the religiously devout from the nominally religious. There are many who believe in the existence of God but who have no interest in the rules of the religion they still loosely identify with. These type of people will go to church on Christmas, pray only when their loved one gets cancer, either doesn't believe in hell or thinks only people like Ted Bundy and Hitler go to hell, and that you'll go to heaven as long as you're good. Are these people not functionally secular already? I would say they are, that their beliefs are more of a cultural vestige than actual religion. So with that in mind, secularism's numbers are looking strong.

So what do you think about the future of secularism? And what do you want to happen?
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Woodfiredpizzas
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Postby Woodfiredpizzas » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:19 am

Secularism can only grow.
Secular societies just provide better outcomes than non secular ones.
By the turn of the century religious states will be treated as pariah states.
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:37 am

If wider society has secular norms then religious immigrants will either react by part-adapting over generations to integrate, or in a minority of cases they might define themselves against this culture by adopting an exaggerated and extreme version of their religion.

Get enough religious immigrants coming in and a declining birthrate among the majority, though, and you reach a tipping point where secularism levels decline from new religious immigrants faster than newcomers part-adapt to secular society. At that point, the cultural "pressure" starts to wane or even locally reverse and people will just stay religious. Might also result in a decline in the most extreme forms of extremism, but that's fairly cold comfort once you pass the post-integration point and people stop even hybridising their identities.

Those will be some very interesting political and social times in which it will be increasingly demanded that people comply with non-secular codes when entering "their" majority areas.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Wed Feb 20, 2019 5:52 am

I don't think there'll be some conflict between extremists and secularists, it'll reach a point where non-religious people will just become the default.

Oddly enough, where I live was founded largely by Anglicans but due to significant declines among those identifying as Anglican, it is now a majority Catholic nation.
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Postby Andsed » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:49 am

Well hopefully secularism contiues to spread but I don’t think there will be to much conflict.
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Postby Alvecia » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:15 am

Costa Fierro wrote:I don't think there'll be some conflict between extremists and secularists, it'll reach a point where non-religious people will just become the default.

Oddly enough, where I live was founded largely by Anglicans but due to significant declines among those identifying as Anglican, it is now a majority Catholic nation.

I think it'll be a long time before non-religious becomes the default. In the meantime it's more likely that we'll see a large rise in the "culturally religious". Those who identify, but don't practice.

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Postby Cetacea » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:21 am

unfortunately the rise of secularism can be linked to civil development, rising standard of livings and settled society. But now western civilisation is in decline destroyed by the increasing inequality gap between the 1% and the vast plebian mob who are increasingly locked out of housing, employment and wealth.

We middle classes who find comfort in our online pontifications occupy a middle ground but for many their escape is not games of politic but rather nationalist discourse, pseudo-religious obsession and fanaticism.

gods and religion may fall, but secularism must still contend against other zealotry which give rise to Trumpism, Brexit and Neo facism

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Postby Woodfiredpizzas » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:23 am

Cetacea wrote:unfortunately the rise of secularism can be linked to civil development, rising standard of livings and settled society. But now western civilisation is in decline destroyed by the increasing inequality gap between the 1% and the vast plebian mob who are increasingly locked out of housing, employment and wealth.

We middle classes who find comfort in our online pontifications occupy a middle ground but for many their escape is not games of politic but rather nationalist discourse, pseudo-religious obsession and fanaticism.

gods and religion may fall, but secularism must still contend against other zealotry which give rise to Trumpism, Brexit and Neo facism


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Postby Aglanen » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:54 am

I think Friedrich Nietzsche had a point when he said "God is dead, and we have killed Him."

Religion just simply doesn't have the overarching moral, political, and social authority that it used to in our society. That's not to say that we're all atheist, nor that atheism will become predominant in the foreseeable future, that would be questionable at best. But it is to say that in the past century or so, the irreligious sector of the population is bigger than it ever used to be. But more importantly, the religious majority are also much less religious. Churches take looser interpretations of their mythology and moral codes to adapt to this. Christians who actively attend church are becoming the minority. Just proclaiming you believe in a higher power is enough to qualify as religious.

In my opinion, this is natural for a society that becomes more scientifically advanced, have easier access to information outside of religious indoctrination, and just a more consumerist population that has better things to do than worship God 24/7. So, in conclusion, I'm not saying that religion will be extinct in the near future. But I will say that with each generation more secular than the previous, religions can only survive by liberalizing to the point where they cease to even be religions in our current definition of the word.
Last edited by Aglanen on Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Free Arabian Nation » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:57 am

Unless a global totalitarian theocracy brings humanity back to the dark age, I think we can only become more secular as time passes on.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:59 am

Secularism has got a real foothold now, so I doubt it's in any real danger.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:18 am

I have faith in a secular future.
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Postby Eglaecia » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:44 am

Ideally it will die with a lot of other enlightenment ideas.
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:47 am

Eglaecia wrote:Ideally it will die with a lot of other enlightenment ideas.

And the alternative is what exactly?
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Eglaecia
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Postby Eglaecia » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:51 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Eglaecia wrote:Ideally it will die with a lot of other enlightenment ideas.

And the alternative is what exactly?

In an ideal world, the Catholic Church would fill the void. Sadly I feel like a post-liberal, environmentalist and anti-globalisation idea will find itself dominant, but that's still preferable to liberalism.
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Postby Free Arabian Nation » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:52 am

Eglaecia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:And the alternative is what exactly?

In an ideal world, the Catholic Church would fill the void. Sadly I feel like a post-liberal, environmentalist and anti-globalisation idea will find itself dominant, but that's still preferable to liberalism.

Catholic Church is heresy, Protestantism is Heresy

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:57 am

Eglaecia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:And the alternative is what exactly?

In an ideal world, the Catholic Church would fill the void.

No thanks. Fuck being ruled over by the Catholic Church, influencing laws to fit their agenda. Things like gay marriage and access to abortion and contraception would be in jeopardy if Catholicism started dabbling in the law again.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Postby Free Arabian Nation » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:57 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Eglaecia wrote:In an ideal world, the Catholic Church would fill the void.

No thanks. Fuck being ruled over by the Catholic Church, influencing laws to fit their agenda. Things like gay marriage and access to abortion and contraception would be in jeopardy if Catholicism started dabbling in the law again.

I think that's part of the plan.
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Postby Eglaecia » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:58 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Eglaecia wrote:In an ideal world, the Catholic Church would fill the void.

Things like gay marriage and access to abortion and contraception would be in jeopardy if Catholicism started dabbling in the law again.

Oh deary me that would be horrific!
Catholique, Intégraliste, Distributiste | Catechism of Pope St. Pius X | Rerum Novarum | On Integralism
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church."
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"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be."

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:00 am

Eglaecia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Things like gay marriage and access to abortion and contraception would be in jeopardy if Catholicism started dabbling in the law again.

Oh deary me that would be horrific!

Not for you perhaps, but there'd be a lot of people who would get seriously fucked over.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Eglaecia
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Postby Eglaecia » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:01 am

The New California Republic wrote:
Eglaecia wrote:Oh deary me that would be horrific!

Not for you perhaps, but there'd be a lot of people who would get seriously fucked over.

Yes fucked over because... you're not allowed to defile the sanctity of marriage or kill babies.
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"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church."
Great British Unionist and Celtic Cultural Revivalist
"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be."

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Free Arabian Nation
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Postby Free Arabian Nation » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:02 am

Eglaecia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Not for you perhaps, but there'd be a lot of people who would get seriously fucked over.

Yes fucked over because... you're not allowed to defile the sanctity of marriage or kill babies.

... And then proceed to worship the god who (sometimes) encourages both.

I mean, I have no problem with Islam or Christianity, but at least be consistent.
Last edited by Free Arabian Nation on Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Andsed
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Postby Andsed » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:04 am

Eglaecia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Things like gay marriage and access to abortion and contraception would be in jeopardy if Catholicism started dabbling in the law again.

Oh deary me that would be horrific!

Well yes restricting millions of innocents rights is a bad thing.
I do be tired


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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:05 am

Eglaecia wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Not for you perhaps, but there'd be a lot of people who would get seriously fucked over.

Yes fucked over because... you're not allowed to defile the sanctity of marriage or kill babies.

Oh here we go. Fetuses aren't babies. And me being allowed to marry a man doesn't defile the sanctity of marriage whatsoever. Even if it did defile your interpretation of what marriage is I really don't fucking care.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Eglaecia
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Postby Eglaecia » Wed Feb 20, 2019 10:06 am

Free Arabian Nation wrote:
Eglaecia wrote:Yes fucked over because... you're not allowed to defile the sanctity of marriage or kill babies.

... And then proceed to worship the god who (sometimes) encourages both.

Everything that God does is right.
Catholique, Intégraliste, Distributiste | Catechism of Pope St. Pius X | Rerum Novarum | On Integralism
"The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church."
Great British Unionist and Celtic Cultural Revivalist
"We shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be."

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