Should There Be A Right To Discriminate?

[Estanglia]

It does. Are you forced to make friends with someone? Are you forced to buy from someone?



If you're talking about the freedom to discriminate, we have.



Because it is their property? I don't see why you expected something else when that has been our argument from the start.

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What makes it horrid?

Unfortunately.

Making it to legal to discriminate is horrid, making it public you are doing it is worse. I wish CNN would run a story on this.

It's already legal to discriminate on many grounds and in many scenarios. Is that horrid?

What is CNN gonna do?

[Mystic Warriors]

Making it to legal to discriminate is horrid, making it public you are doing it is worse. I wish CNN would run a story on this.

It's already legal to discriminate on many grounds and in many scenarios. Is that horrid?

What is CNN gonna do?

You guys are talking about doing it based on race, religion, political ideology and sex. That is horrid, how is it not? CNN could show how this is a reality so people can be aware of it and vote correctly.

[Estanglia]

It's already legal to discriminate on many grounds and in many scenarios. Is that horrid?

What is CNN gonna do?

You guys are talking about doing it based on race, religion, political ideology and sex. That is horrid, how is it not? CNN could show how this is a reality so people can be aware of it and vote correctly.

It is the product of one being able to enter and exit transactions for any reason. It is horrid to discriminate, but I don't think it should be illegal to do so.

[New haven america]

You guys are talking about doing it based on race, religion, political ideology and sex. That is horrid, how is it not? CNN could show how this is a reality so people can be aware of it and vote correctly.

It is the product of one being able to enter and exit transactions for any reason. It is horrid to discriminate, but I don't think it should be illegal to do so.

Agree on the fact that it's horrid, and still glad it's illegal to do so in most cases.

There are still some cases where it's legal (Like firing someone based solely on their sexuality), but I hope those get stamped out real soon.

[Estanglia]

It is the product of one being able to enter and exit transactions for any reason. It is horrid to discriminate, but I don't think it should be illegal to do so.

Agree on the fact that it's horrid, and still glad it's illegal to do so in most cases.

There are still some cases where it's legal (Like firing someone based solely on their sexuality), but I hope those get stamped out real soon.

I find that the worst part about some anti-discrimination laws. If you're gonna have protections, at least make them cover all the major categories (race, sexuality, gender etc), never mind the minor ones.

As I don't think discrimination will be legal anytime soon, I'd rather there be total discrimination coverage, at least for the major categories.

[Bezkoshtovnya]

It does. Are you forced to make friends with someone? Are you forced to buy from someone?



If you're talking about the freedom to discriminate, we have.



Because it is their property? I don't see why you expected something else when that has been our argument from the start.

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What makes it horrid?

Unfortunately.

I wish CNN would run a story on this.

Story on.....what exactly? That some people think the government shouldn't be able to dictate to businesses who they have to service? That is not exactly a new thing, or news worthy.

[Ors Might]

Guess it depends on how much they care. If it makes you feel any better, we could make it a legal requirement to specify in your advertising if you discriminate.

Or not discriminate?


Why are you trying to bring us backwards?

You’re familiar with the concept of freedom of association? The basics of it go that you cannot be compelled to associate with other individuals, whatever the reason.

[San Lumen]

And this alleged right to freedom of association doesnt exist

It does. Are you forced to make friends with someone? Are you forced to buy from someone?

and no one has laid out what the basis for it is.

If you're talking about the freedom to discriminate, we have.

I laid out a great example earlier in the thread and the only response from the naysayers was their property their rules

Because it is their property? I don't see why you expected something else when that has been our argument from the start.

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If your horrid idea ever came to pass then yes they should be required to specify in their advertising who they will not serve.

But it never would become law.

What makes it horrid?

Unfortunately.

No you cannot legislate thought.

Who cares if it’s their property? If you serve the public you shouldn’t be able to treat people differently for things they didn’t chose.

How about this what if a business decided they would not turn away people they didn’t like but would treat them differently?

Say a restaurant decided they would deliberately mess up the orders of non whites or a hotel would not give room service to anyone not white? Is it still their property their rules?

[Estanglia]

It does. Are you forced to make friends with someone? Are you forced to buy from someone?



If you're talking about the freedom to discriminate, we have.



Because it is their property? I don't see why you expected something else when that has been our argument from the start.

---

What makes it horrid?

Unfortunately.

No you cannot legislate thought.

Who cares if it’s their property? If you serve the public you shouldn’t be able to treat people differently for things they didn’t choose.

Choosing who I associate with is, in some aspects at least, an action, not pure thought.

People who care about property rights.

I think you should.

How about this what if a business decided they would turn away people they didn’t like but wound treat them differently?

Say a restaurant decided they would deliberately mess up the orders of non-whites or a hotel would not give room service to anyone not white? Is it still their property their rules?

The consumer would well be within their rights to demand a refund, and if the maltreatment was not mentioned in a contract or one was told one would get a service/product or the absence for that race wasn't mentioned (e.g room service was guaranteed to everyone by the hotel but not given to nonwhites), they should be able to demand other compensation.

If the poor treatment were in violation of other laws (like consumer protection ones), there'd be nothing stopping them from suing for breaking these other laws.

[Jolthig]

No one should discriminate. Not only would it be racist, but also would degrade the poor.

[San Lumen]

No you cannot legislate thought.

Who cares if it’s their property? If you serve the public you shouldn’t be able to treat people differently for things they didn’t choose.

Choosing who I associate with is, in some aspects at least, an action, not pure thought.

People who care about property rights.

I think you should.

How about this what if a business decided they would turn away people they didn’t like but wound treat them differently?

Say a restaurant decided they would deliberately mess up the orders of non-whites or a hotel would not give room service to anyone not white? Is it still their property their rules?

The consumer would well be within their rights to demand a refund, and if the maltreatment was not mentioned in a contract or one was told one would get a service/product or the absence for that race wasn't mentioned (e.g room service was guaranteed to everyone by the hotel but not given to nonwhites), they should be able to demand other compensation.

If the poor treatment were in violation of other laws (like consumer protection ones), there'd be nothing stopping them from suing for breaking these other laws.

The government cannot dicate who your friends with or who you marry. That would be absurd.

And what if that owner said I’m not giving a refund. I don’t like having non white people in this city or whatever their reason is.

Property rights does not mean you can treat others like dirt

[Estanglia]

Choosing who I associate with is, in some aspects at least, an action, not pure thought.

People who care about property rights.

I think you should.



The consumer would well be within their rights to demand a refund, and if the maltreatment was not mentioned in a contract or one was told one would get a service/product or the absence for that race wasn't mentioned (e.g room service was guaranteed to everyone by the hotel but not given to nonwhites), they should be able to demand other compensation.

If the poor treatment were in violation of other laws (like consumer protection ones), there'd be nothing stopping them from suing for breaking these other laws.

The government cannot dicate who your friends with or who you marry. That would be absurd.

And yet it dictates who I can/cannot hire/fire.

And what if that owner said I’m not giving a refund. I don’t like having non white people in this city or whatever their reason is.

Sue him. If what he's doing violates another law in place, he can still be punished for that.

Property rights does not mean you can treat others like dirt

You think it doesn't.

[Jolthig]

The government cannot dicate who your friends with or who you marry. That would be absurd.

And yet it dictates who I can/cannot hire/fire.

And what if that owner said I’m not giving a refund. I don’t like having non white people in this city or whatever their reason is.

Sue him. If what he's doing violates another law in place, he can still be punished for that.

Property rights does not mean you can treat others like dirt

You think it doesn't.

Government can dictate you can/cannot fire simply because of their skin color, sexual orientation, religious background, etc. =/= Government dictating who you can marry.

Marriage isn't a business where people want to apply for a job to help out their families.

[Estanglia]

And yet it dictates who I can/cannot hire/fire.



Sue him. If what he's doing violates another law in place, he can still be punished for that.



You think it doesn't.

Government can dictate you can/cannot fire simply because of their skin color, sexual orientation, religious background, etc. =/= Government dictating who you can marry.

Marriage isn't a business where people want to apply for a job to help out their families.

My point was that the government already regulates certain types of relationships.

[San Lumen]

The government cannot dicate who your friends with or who you marry. That would be absurd.

And yet it dictates who I can/cannot hire/fire.

And what if that owner said I’m not giving a refund. I don’t like having non white people in this city or whatever their reason is.

Sue him. If what he's doing violates another law in place, he can still be punished for that.

Property rights does not mean you can treat others like dirt

You think it doesn't.

Yes because being, black, Asian, Hispanic or lgbt does not effect someone’s ability to do the job

What other law?

And where in property law does it give you the right to treat others as beneath you?

[Galloism]

What other law?

Common law typically dictates contracts must be performed or financially made right, even absent protected characteristics.

If you roll up on that hotel in a Prius, and the owner hates priuses and tells you you can’t stay there (which would be completely legal in every state, I believe), and refuses to give your money back, you could sue for breach of contract.

There’s no reason this wouldn’t apply to refusal based on what are currently protected characteristics. Your “what if he didn’t refund the money” argument was stupid.

[Estanglia]

And yet it dictates who I can/cannot hire/fire.



Sue him. If what he's doing violates another law in place, he can still be punished for that.



You think it doesn't.

Yes because being, black, Asian, Hispanic or lgbt does not effect someone’s ability to do the job

And?

Neither does my hair colour but I can still be fired for that.

What other law?

Any other law regulating businesses and transactions, like false advertising laws.

And where in property law does it give you the right to treat others as beneath you?

The fact that it's my property and I can do what I wish with it?

I can treat someone as beneath me because, as long as it doesn't stray into illegal territory, I am free to do that.

The property argument is that, as it is the business owner's property, they should be able to choose the clients of their business.

[San Lumen]

Yes because being, black, Asian, Hispanic or lgbt does not effect someone’s ability to do the job

And?

Neither does my hair colour but I can still be fired for that.

What other law?

Any other law regulating businesses and transactions, like false advertising laws.

And where in property law does it give you the right to treat others as beneath you?

The fact that it's my property and I can do what I wish with it?

I can treat someone as beneath me because, as long as it doesn't stray into illegal territory, I am free to do that.

The property argument is that, as it is the business owner's property, they should be able to choose the clients of their business.

Why should someone whose lgbt be able to be fired because their supervisor finds out they are gay via social media? I assume you think they should hide their relationship

Even at the last minute like in our hotel scenario? Should our engaged couple have asked before hand if all are welcome?

[Estanglia]

And?

Neither does my hair colour but I can still be fired for that.



Any other law regulating businesses and transactions, like false advertising laws.



The fact that it's my property and I can do what I wish with it?

I can treat someone as beneath me because, as long as it doesn't stray into illegal territory, I am free to do that.

The property argument is that, as it is the business owner's property, they should be able to choose the clients of their business.

Why should someone whose lgbt be able to be fired because their supervisor finds out they are gay via social media?

Because it's their business and they shouldn't be forced to remain in relationships they don't want to be a part of.

I assume you think they should hide their relationship

I don't.

Even at the last minute like in our hotel scenario?

Like I said before, unless it is in violation of their contract, they should be free to cancel and provide compensation.

Should our engaged couple have asked beforehand if all are welcome?

Probably, if they didn't want complications like that.

[San Lumen]

Why should someone whose lgbt be able to be fired because their supervisor finds out they are gay via social media?

Because it's their business and they shouldn't be forced to remain in relationships they don't want to be a part of.

I assume you think they should hide their relationship

I don't.

Even at the last minute like in our hotel scenario?

Like I said before, unless it is in violation of their contract, they should be free to cancel and provide compensation.

Should our engaged couple have asked beforehand if all are welcome?

Probably, if they didn't want complications like that.

It doesn’t matter how you sugar coat it your saying those who are gay or in interracial relationships should hide it because their employer might fire them if discovered

In our scenario they had a contract with our engaged couple for certain number of rooms It is a violation of contract to deny people at the desk one of those rooms because they are gay or African American or whomever else they deem unwelcome

It could simply be illegal and we don’t have complications like that.

[Ors Might]

Because it's their business and they shouldn't be forced to remain in relationships they don't want to be a part of.



I don't.



Like I said before, unless it is in violation of their contract, they should be free to cancel and provide compensation.



Probably, if they didn't want complications like that.

It doesn’t matter how you sugar coat it your saying those who are gay or in interracial relationships should hide it because their employer might fire them if discovered

In our scenario they had a contract with our engaged couple for certain number of rooms It is a violation of contract to deny people at the desk one of those rooms because they are gay or African American or whomever else they deem unwelcome

It could simply be illegal and we don’t have complications like that.

How do you get “you just want the gays to hide in closets” from “hey people have a right to freedom of association. we know this because you can choose who your friends are. maybe we should extend this to contractual agreements?” ?

[Telconi]

Because it's their business and they shouldn't be forced to remain in relationships they don't want to be a part of.



I don't.



Like I said before, unless it is in violation of their contract, they should be free to cancel and provide compensation.



Probably, if they didn't want complications like that.

It doesn’t matter how you sugar coat it your saying those who are gay or in interracial relationships should hide it because their employer might fire them if discovered

In our scenario they had a contract with our engaged couple for certain number of rooms It is a violation of contract to deny people at the desk one of those rooms because they are gay or African American or whomever else they deem unwelcome

It could simply be illegal and we don’t have complications like that.

Lots of things could simply be made illegal to avoid problems.

[San Lumen]

It doesn’t matter how you sugar coat it your saying those who are gay or in interracial relationships should hide it because their employer might fire them if discovered

In our scenario they had a contract with our engaged couple for certain number of rooms It is a violation of contract to deny people at the desk one of those rooms because they are gay or African American or whomever else they deem unwelcome

It could simply be illegal and we don’t have complications like that.

How do you get “you just want the gays to hide in closets” from “hey people have a right to freedom of association. we know this because you can choose who your friends are. maybe we should extend this to contractual agreements?” ?

Well your the one who said they ought to request a cot if they get a hotel room with a single bed.

And how about no? Who you choose to be friends with is not the same thing as what your race or sexual orientation are.

It doesn’t matter how you sugar coat it your saying those who are gay or in interracial relationships should hide it because their employer might fire them if discovered

In our scenario they had a contract with our engaged couple for certain number of rooms It is a violation of contract to deny people at the desk one of those rooms because they are gay or African American or whomever else they deem unwelcome

It could simply be illegal and we don’t have complications like that.

Lots of things could simply be made illegal to avoid problems.

like what?

[Ors Might]

How do you get “you just want the gays to hide in closets” from “hey people have a right to freedom of association. we know this because you can choose who your friends are. maybe we should extend this to contractual agreements?” ?

Well your the one who said they ought to request a cot if they get a hotel room with a single bed.

And how about no? Who you choose to be friends with is not the same thing as what your race or sexual orientation are.

Lots of things could simply be made illegal to avoid problems.

like what?

When the flying fuck have I suggested they ask for a cot? I’ve said that if the hotel reneges on their reservation at the check in desk, they get their money back plus extra as compensation.

Let me get this straight. Social relations are sacred enough to prevent government interference, but economic interactions can go get fucked to the point where you can be forced into it?

[San Lumen]

Well your the one who said they ought to request a cot if they get a hotel room with a single bed.

And how about no? Who you choose to be friends with is not the same thing as what your race or sexual orientation are.

like what?

When the flying fuck have I suggested they ask for a cot? I’ve said that if the hotel reneges on their reservation at the check in desk, they get their money back plus extra as compensation.

Let me get this straight. Social relations are sacred enough to prevent government interference, but economic interactions can go get fucked to the point where you can be forced into it?

sorry I mixed you up with someone else. I apologize

They should not be able to renege at the desk and leave someone with no place to stay. Finding out someone is gay or black is not a valid reason to break a contract.

Its a simple concept. You as an individual can choose who you are friends with and where you shop. A business being open to the public does not have the right to pick and choose who they associate with other then very specific circumstances.

I have a question for you. Since business have a right of freedom of association should the Americans with Disabilities act be repealed too?