Should There Be A Right To Discriminate?

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Which they are, of course, perfectly entitled to do since they are a private company offering services.

And when that private company can monopolise the market, so to speak, those in need of desperate care can be denied such.
As in the case of Ms Melanie Jones

Omg, I just read that case. That's fucking stupid. Very fucking stupid.

[Otira]

Ask him if he thinks businesses should be able to fire you for exercising your freedom of speech. Or should its protections extend over them and not just from the government?

Oh sorry, I missed your post.
I don't think they should, no; but I don't think they should be able to fire you for what we're discussing either. I distinguish between refusing to serve and refusing to fire.

Nah, it wasn't really meant for you to have to answer. I think San Lumen is just strawmanning and stringing folks along. When I didn't rise to his strawman and posed that counter-question he skipped it.
Which suggests he's fine with some discrimination by businesses, as long as it's the kind he agrees with.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Oh sorry, I missed your post.
I don't think they should, no; but I don't think they should be able to fire you for what we're discussing either. I distinguish between refusing to serve and refusing to fire.

Nah, it wasn't really meant for you to have to answer. I think San Lumen is just strawmanning and stringing folks along. When I didn't rise to his strawman and posed that counter-question he skipped it.
Which suggests he's fine with some discrimination by businesses, as long as it's the kind he agrees with.

Oh that's pretty common in many threads.

[San Lumen]

Oh sorry, I missed your post.
I don't think they should, no; but I don't think they should be able to fire you for what we're discussing either. I distinguish between refusing to serve and refusing to fire.

Nah, it wasn't really meant for you to have to answer. I think San Lumen is just strawmanning and stringing folks along. When I didn't rise to his strawman and posed that counter-question he skipped it.
Which suggests he's fine with some discrimination by businesses, as long as it's the kind he agrees with.

How am I strawmanning?

[Otira]

Nah, it wasn't really meant for you to have to answer. I think San Lumen is just strawmanning and stringing folks along. When I didn't rise to his strawman and posed that counter-question he skipped it.
Which suggests he's fine with some discrimination by businesses, as long as it's the kind he agrees with.

Oh that's pretty common in many threads.

Figures.

Honestly I'm not sure on the issue. I think businesses should be able to choose who they do business with, but I'm not a fan of opening the door to mass discrimination because it does seem like a slippery slope. Rationally you'd think most businesses wouldn't opt to discriminate much because it would affect their profits, you know?

[Ors Might]

You can assign certain classifications to certain businesses. I imagine hospitals and movie theaters have different health code standards, for example. But I was thinking more along the lines of the government run hospitals, grocery stores, and so forth. Though there’s the problem of expense.

Government-run grocery stores? Where are they a thing?

I’ve had worse ideas.

[San Lumen]

Oh that's pretty common in many threads.

Figures.

Honestly I'm not sure on the issue. I think businesses should be able to choose who they do business with, but I'm not a fan of opening the door to mass discrimination because it does seem like a slippery slope. Rationally you'd think most businesses wouldn't opt to discriminate much because it would affect their profits, you know?

In certain areas of the country who knows what would happen?

[Grinning Dragon]

Figures.

Honestly I'm not sure on the issue. I think businesses should be able to choose who they do business with, but I'm not a fan of opening the door to mass discrimination because it does seem like a slippery slope. Rationally you'd think most businesses wouldn't opt to discriminate much because it would affect their profits, you know?

In certain areas of the country who knows what would happen?

Fire and brimstone coming from the sky, rivers and seas boiling, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes, the dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together, mass hysteria!

[Estanglia]

The argument is one of freedom of association: you should be able to choose who to associate or not associate with, and providing a service is a form of association (you are associating with the person who wishes to buy your product), thus one should be able to deny services to anyone they wish.

But again, wouldn't freedom of association apply to individuals rather than businesses? A business does not have the same rights as a person or group of people.

I'm also curious about how providing a service is the same as associating with someone - could you elaborate a bit more on this line of thought?

The business isn't a person, but the business owner is. That's where the freedom of association comes in.

Because, in order to provide a service/product to you, I have to be involved with you in some way (unless I use a third party to engage in the transaction). Under freedom of association, I can choose to be involved with you through this way, or not.
Sorry if I'm not making sense, I'm terrible at explaining things.

---

And you think that everyone that isn’t LGBT can demand that hotels never cancel their agreements? Buddy, I don’t know how to tell you this but that happens to everybody.


It’s not a cut and dry sort of deal, that’s fair. It’s something we have to hammer out into something that works. But, for the most part, those that run a business should have the final day on whom they hire and do business to. There are exceptions to this, namely the refusal to provide service posing a serious threat to one’s life. So things like hospitals and grocery stores. Again, this isn’t a perfect solution but it is an attempt to balance the rights of freedom of association and that of life.

I didn’t say that. What I said was canceling your reservation without notice should not be as a result of ones race, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation.

Why should religion be a protected class?

So if a business wants only white people and writes in their job posting only Caucasians need apply that would be ok to you?

You keep asking these questions like we'll answer differently every time.

---

I will never understand this obsession some people have with being able to treat others as subhuman for arbitrary reasons.

A supposed right to freedom of association and that it’s a businesses right to choose who they serve

Knock out 'supposed' and you've got our argument.

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Yes, though it should be left to the public to decide when "too far" is too far.

Why?

Because businesses should not be compelled to enter into contracts they do not wish to enter into contracts with.

Then dont open a business

Why should my right to not be compelled to enter transactions disappear when I open a business? I'm not forced to be someone's friend if I don't like their race, why can't the same apply if I'm selling chairs?

[Internationalist Bastard]

The other thing is that honestly I don’t think anti discriminator laws work

[Yusseria]

He should have to give you your money back if you paid, but yes.

Why? What if I drove or flew in a long distance? I should now have to find a new hotel after I was already expecting to stay there?

Too bad.

Again, you don't have a right to the services of another person.

[San Lumen]

But again, wouldn't freedom of association apply to individuals rather than businesses? A business does not have the same rights as a person or group of people.

I'm also curious about how providing a service is the same as associating with someone - could you elaborate a bit more on this line of thought?

The business isn't a person, but the business owner is. That's where the freedom of association comes in.

Because, in order to provide a service/product to you, I have to be involved with you in some way (unless I use a third party to engage in the transaction). Under freedom of association, I can choose to be involved with you through this way, or not.
Sorry if I'm not making sense, I'm terrible at explaining things.

---

I didn’t say that. What I said was canceling your reservation without notice should not be as a result of ones race, religion, ethnicity or sexual orientation.

Why should religion be a protected class?

So if a business wants only white people and writes in their job posting only Caucasians need apply that would be ok to you?

You keep asking these questions like we'll answer differently every time.

---

A supposed right to freedom of association and that it’s a businesses right to choose who they serve

Knock out 'supposed' and you've got our argument.

---

Why?

Then dont open a business

Why should my right to not be compelled to enter transactions disappear when I open a business? I'm not forced to be someone's friend if I don't like their race, why can't the same apply if I'm selling chairs?

Because a business and a personal relationship are not the same. If we are going to allow business to discriminate whats to stop a bus company like Greyhound from bringing back segregated buses?

The other thing is that honestly I don’t think anti discriminator laws work

Why not?

[San Lumen]

Why? What if I drove or flew in a long distance? I should now have to find a new hotel after I was already expecting to stay there?

Too bad.

Again, you don't have a right to the services of another person.

Too bad? I should have to find another hotel I can afford in a city im not familiar with and hope there is a vacancy? Why is my money not good simply because Im gay?

[Yusseria]

Too bad.

Again, you don't have a right to the services of another person.

Too bad? I should have to find another hotel I can afford in a city im not familiar with and hope there is a vacancy? Why is my money not good simply because Im gay?

Because the owner doesn't want you there and you don't have the right to force them to serve you.

[Internationalist Bastard]

The business isn't a person, but the business owner is. That's where the freedom of association comes in.

Because, in order to provide a service/product to you, I have to be involved with you in some way (unless I use a third party to engage in the transaction). Under freedom of association, I can choose to be involved with you through this way, or not.
Sorry if I'm not making sense, I'm terrible at explaining things.

---

Why should religion be a protected class?



You keep asking these questions like we'll answer differently every time.

---

Knock out 'supposed' and you've got our argument.

---

Why should my right to not be compelled to enter transactions disappear when I open a business? I'm not forced to be someone's friend if I don't like their race, why can't the same apply if I'm selling chairs?

Because a business and a personal relationship are not the same. If we are going to allow business to discriminate whats to stop a bus company like Greyhound from bringing back segregated buses?

The other thing is that honestly I don’t think anti discriminator laws work

Why not?

Cuz frankly I haven’t seen them really help
I’d need a lawyer in order to actually push the subject, and there’s also the fact that comapanies can make it super easy to pull a different excuse out

[San Lumen]

Too bad? I should have to find another hotel I can afford in a city im not familiar with and hope there is a vacancy? Why is my money not good simply because Im gay?

Because the owner doesn't want you there and you don't have the right to force them to serve you.

Too bad. They dont have a right to be a racist homophobic bigot. And a hotel provides a essential service so why should they be able to refuse someone whos black or LGBT?

What if Greyhound decided to bring back segregated buses? Would that be ok?

[Woodfiredpizzas]

Because the owner doesn't want you there and you don't have the right to force them to serve you.

Too bad. They dont have a right to be a racist homophobic bigot. And a hotel provides a essential service so why should they be able to refuse someone whos black or LGBT?

What if Greyhound decided to bring back segregated buses? Would that be ok?

Yes they do. Because the hotel is someone’s property.

Yes, shit though.

[Yusseria]

Because the owner doesn't want you there and you don't have the right to force them to serve you.

Too bad. They dont have a right to be a racist homophobic bigot.

Yes, they do. People have a right to believe whatever they want. You don't have a right to force them to do anything.

And a hotel provides a essential service so why should they be able to refuse someone whos black or LGBT?

Staying somewhere temporarily is not essential.

What if Greyhound decided to bring back segregated buses? Would that be ok?

Public services can't discriminate since they're, ya know, public services.

[San Lumen]

Too bad. They dont have a right to be a racist homophobic bigot. And a hotel provides a essential service so why should they be able to refuse someone whos black or LGBT?

What if Greyhound decided to bring back segregated buses? Would that be ok?

Yes they do. Because the hotel is someone’s property.

Yes, shit though.

It is public property therefore if you open to all you do not get to pick and choose who you serve.

Can you remove someone who is disruptive? Absolutely.

Why should they be able to bring back segregated buses and treat people different for the color of their skin? Because its their bus? That's probably what the city of Montgomery claimed in their case after Rosa Parks was arrested for not giving up her seat.

[San Lumen]

Too bad. They dont have a right to be a racist homophobic bigot.

Yes, they do. People have a right to believe whatever they want. You don't have a right to force them to do anything.

And a hotel provides a essential service so why should they be able to refuse someone whos black or LGBT?

Staying somewhere temporarily is not essential.

What if Greyhound decided to bring back segregated buses? Would that be ok?

Public services can't discriminate since they're, ya know, public services.

Why should they be exempt and a hotel is not?

[Yusseria]

Yes, they do. People have a right to believe whatever they want. You don't have a right to force them to do anything.


Staying somewhere temporarily is not essential.


Public services can't discriminate since they're, ya know, public services.

Why should they be exempt and a hotel is not?

Because buses are a public service. Hotels are private businesses.

[Holy Tedalonia]

The business isn't a person, but the business owner is. That's where the freedom of association comes in.

Because, in order to provide a service/product to you, I have to be involved with you in some way (unless I use a third party to engage in the transaction). Under freedom of association, I can choose to be involved with you through this way, or not.
Sorry if I'm not making sense, I'm terrible at explaining things.

---

Why should religion be a protected class?



You keep asking these questions like we'll answer differently every time.

---

Knock out 'supposed' and you've got our argument.

---

Why should my right to not be compelled to enter transactions disappear when I open a business? I'm not forced to be someone's friend if I don't like their race, why can't the same apply if I'm selling chairs?

Because a business and a personal relationship are not the same. If we are going to allow business to discriminate whats to stop a bus company like Greyhound from bringing back segregated buses?

The other thing is that honestly I don’t think anti discriminator laws work

Why not?

What stops a bus company from doing that is boycotts. You act as though there's no real solution, that minorities if they put their mind to it can't stop these companies that abuse them. That my sir is what I find really offensive of your demeanor.

Also denying a service =/= being prejudice and given certain services to certain people. You try to make a comparison with the buses, but denying a service is different then treating people like luxury whilst others like cattle. It was bad service to a certain group of people, not the denial of service that did the buses in.

[Telconi]

Yes they do. Because the hotel is someone’s property.

Yes, shit though.

It is public property therefore if you open to all you do not get to pick and choose who you serve.

Can you remove someone who is disruptive? Absolutely.

Why should they be able to bring back segregated buses and treat people different for the color of their skin? Because its their bus? That's probably what the city of Montgomery claimed in their case after Rosa Parks was arrested for not giving up her seat.

It isnt though, someone owns that hotel, and it isnt ghe state. Present legal state is still irrelevant, just as it was yesterday, just as it will be tomorrow.

Yes, the city of Montgomery doesn't possess private property.

[Woodfiredpizzas]

Yes they do. Because the hotel is someone’s property.

Yes, shit though.

It is public property therefore if you open to all you do not get to pick and choose who you serve.

Can you remove someone who is disruptive? Absolutely.

Why should they be able to bring back segregated buses and treat people different for the color of their skin? Because its their bus? That's probably what the city of Montgomery claimed in their case after Rosa Parks was arrested for not giving up her seat.

I was under the impression greyhound was a private entity. Well it should be.but that’s a different conversation.

[San Lumen]

It is public property therefore if you open to all you do not get to pick and choose who you serve.

Can you remove someone who is disruptive? Absolutely.

Why should they be able to bring back segregated buses and treat people different for the color of their skin? Because its their bus? That's probably what the city of Montgomery claimed in their case after Rosa Parks was arrested for not giving up her seat.

I was under the impression greyhound was a private entity. Well it should be.but that’s a different conversation.

It seems they are a private entity. The government doesnt own them.

Because a business and a personal relationship are not the same. If we are going to allow business to discriminate whats to stop a bus company like Greyhound from bringing back segregated buses?


Why not?

What stops a bus company from doing that is boycotts. You act as though there's no real solution, that minorities if they put their mind to it can't stop these companies that abuse them. That my sir is what I find really offensive of your demeanor.

Also denying a service =/= being prejudice and given certain services to certain people. You try to make a comparison with the buses, but denying a service is different then treating people like luxury whilst others like cattle. It was bad service to a certain group of people, not the denial of service that did the buses in.

And a law was passed to keep other bus companies from doing the same thing and prevent anyone else from discriminating in their business. I dont see what;'s wrong with that.

Why should they be exempt and a hotel is not?

Because buses are a public service. Hotels are private businesses.

But Greyhound or any other intercity bus company is privately owned. Its not run by the government so why shouldnt they have the right to serve who they want or segregate their buses?

Why should a hotel be able to deny a paying customer simply for what they look like or who they love? A hotel is different from a home. You can choose who enters your house a hotel doesn't have that right.