Should There Be A Right To Discriminate?

[Ors Might]

Do you have examples of nations doing exactly what I said and still receiving popular support?

Fair enough, I guess. People are easier to lead than I was suggesting.

So how about that thread topic?

Demand my money back plus extra as compensation.

Not to mention your wedding is ruined and people have to head home because it’s not occurring?

I wonder what others who support this hotels supposed right have to say regarding what they would do?

I mean, my wedding would hardly be ruined because two people couldn’t get a room. Unless they were me and my s/o. I’d demand compensation for the room they denied my friends, attempt to find somewhere they can stay on short notice, and keep the wedding moving forward. If I can’t find them a place to stay, then we’ll try to see what we can do. Maybe sneak them into one of the rooms we booked and share, or something.

[San Lumen]

Fair enough, I guess. People are easier to lead than I was suggesting.

So how about that thread topic?

Not to mention your wedding is ruined and people have to head home because it’s not occurring?

I wonder what others who support this hotels supposed right have to say regarding what they would do?

I mean, my wedding would hardly be ruined because two people couldn’t get a room. Unless they were me and my s/o. I’d demand compensation for the room they denied my friends, attempt to find somewhere they can stay on short notice, and keep the wedding moving forward. If I can’t find them a place to stay, then we’ll try to see what we can do. Maybe sneak them into one of the rooms we booked and share, or something.

Ok maybe that was a little over the top but what if they said they were not welcome at all and anyone non white wasn’t welcome either?

[Telconi]

Fair enough, I guess. People are easier to lead than I was suggesting.

So how about that thread topic?


I mean, my wedding would hardly be ruined because two people couldn’t get a room. Unless they were me and my s/o. I’d demand compensation for the room they denied my friends, attempt to find somewhere they can stay on short notice, and keep the wedding moving forward. If I can’t find them a place to stay, then we’ll try to see what we can do. Maybe sneak them into one of the rooms we booked and share, or something.

Ok maybe that was a little over the top but what if they said they were not welcome at all and anyone non white wasn’t welcome either?

I'd find a different hotel.

[Neu Leonstein]

Ok, so here's a thought. Not necessarily original, but it is what it is.

Let's say that as a society we have some interest in making the lives of current and future members of that society suck less. Basic math would suggest that there are more future members of society than current ones. Absent some foreseeable catastrophe, it almost doesn't matter how much you discount the importance of future members of society - their interests will in aggregate outweigh those of current members of society in aggregate.

That's a good rule to keep in the back of your mind on any issue, but let's progress to the specific one at hand.

For any given member of society, the way we are born is pretty much a lottery. There's nothing you can do to influence who your parents are, whether they are white or black or whatever. Whether there are two of them, whether they have money, whether they are healthy, whether they are any good at parenting. You can't influence your genome or most of the things that happen to you as your neural pathways are formed... things like sexual preferences, various forms of body and gender dysphoria, etc. These are things that future members of society won't be able to choose for themselves (absent some pretty major technological advances).

But we know that, if discrimination for these basic characteristics is something that happens in our society, then these people will experience it and their lives will suck more than they would otherwise.

What about the people who do the discriminating? If you didn't allow them to, wouldn't their lives suck a little more? Let's step around the question of whether being prevented to make a choice that one wants to make is fundamentally different from being punished for something one didn't choose, and just assume that not being allowed to discriminate is just as bad as being discriminated against.

Even then there is a good case for trying to eliminate discrimination as soon as possible. Because discrimination is learned behaviour. The pain caused by not being allowed to discriminate only applies to people who want to discriminate, which is only those people who learn to discriminate. You learn by observation and by being taught. If discrimination is banned and prosecuted, then the opportunities for observation and teaching diminish. With every person who doesn't learn to discriminate, the probability of them teaching someone else to do so goes to zero.

So as we trace this into the future, we have two diametrically opposed causes of suckiness. But one is linked to unavoidable biological and psychological variation within society. The other is a social variation. We can change the latter, but not the former. In the interest of decreasing world suck, it makes sense to use whatever tools are available to get rid of discrimination for characteristics that people cannot choose.

[Telconi]

Ok, so here's a thought. Not necessarily original, but it is what it is.

Let's say that as a society we have some interest in making the lives of current and future members of that society suck less. Basic math would suggest that there are more future members of society than current ones. Absent some foreseeable catastrophe, it almost doesn't matter how much you discount the importance of future members of society - their interests will in aggregate outweigh those of current members of society in aggregate.

That's a good rule to keep in the back of your mind on any issue, but let's progress to the specific one at hand.

For any given member of society, the way we are born is pretty much a lottery. There's nothing you can do to influence who your parents are, whether they are white or black or whatever. Whether there are two of them, whether they have money, whether they are healthy, whether they are any good at parenting. You can't influence your genome or most of the things that happen to you as your neural pathways are formed... things like sexual preferences, various forms of body and gender dysphoria, etc. These are things that future members of society won't be able to choose for themselves (absent some pretty major technological advances).

But we know that, if discrimination for these basic characteristics is something that happens in our society, then these people will experience it and their lives will suck more than they would otherwise.

What about the people who do the discriminating? If you didn't allow them to, wouldn't their lives suck a little more? Let's step around the question of whether being prevented to make a choice that one wants to make is fundamentally different from being punished for something one didn't choose, and just assume that not being allowed to discriminate is just as bad as being discriminated against.

Even then there is a good case for trying to eliminate discrimination as soon as possible. Because discrimination is learned behaviour. The pain caused by not being allowed to discriminate only applies to people who want to discriminate, which is only those people who learn to discriminate. You learn by observation and by being taught. If discrimination is banned and prosecuted, then the opportunities for observation and teaching diminish. With every person who doesn't learn to discriminate, the probability of them teaching someone else to do so goes to zero.

So as we trace this into the future, we have two diametrically opposed causes of suckiness. But one is linked to unavoidable biological and psychological variation within society. The other is a social variation. We can change the latter, but not the former. In the interest of decreasing world suck, it makes sense to use whatever tools are available to get rid of discrimination for characteristics that people cannot choose.

But nobody would be punished...

[Neu Leonstein]

But nobody would be punished...

If that's the one thing that stops you from accepting that argument, then replace the word with "experience suckiness as a result of".

[Telconi]

But nobody would be punished...

If that's the one thing that stops you from accepting that argument, then replace the word with "experience suckiness as a result of".

No, the one thing that stops me from accepting your argument is my desire to see the future people of my nation live in a better society, with less "experiencing suckiness as a result of"

[Ors Might]

Fair enough, I guess. People are easier to lead than I was suggesting.

So how about that thread topic?


I mean, my wedding would hardly be ruined because two people couldn’t get a room. Unless they were me and my s/o. I’d demand compensation for the room they denied my friends, attempt to find somewhere they can stay on short notice, and keep the wedding moving forward. If I can’t find them a place to stay, then we’ll try to see what we can do. Maybe sneak them into one of the rooms we booked and share, or something.

Ok maybe that was a little over the top but what if they said they were not welcome at all and anyone non white wasn’t welcome either?

Then I wouldn’t want to be at that hotel? If they’re gonna be like that then they don’t deserve my currency.

[San Lumen]

Ok maybe that was a little over the top but what if they said they were not welcome at all and anyone non white wasn’t welcome either?

Then I wouldn’t want to be at that hotel? If they’re gonna be like that then they don’t deserve my currency.

Nor would I but this could all be avoided with the Civil Rights Act and anti discrimination laws.

[Ors Might]

Then I wouldn’t want to be at that hotel? If they’re gonna be like that then they don’t deserve my currency.

Nor would I but this could all be avoided with the Civil Rights Act and anti discrimination laws.

At the cost of other things that I value more than people not being total dicks.

[San Lumen]

Nor would I but this could all be avoided with the Civil Rights Act and anti discrimination laws.

At the cost of other things that I value more than people not being total dicks.

What are those other things you value more?

[Ors Might]

At the cost of other things that I value more than people not being total dicks.

What are those other things you value more?

Individual liberty.

[San Lumen]

What are those other things you value more?

Individual liberty.

So you'd rather protect the rights of bigots like in the scenario i laid out then not face like it in reality?

[Ors Might]

Individual liberty.

So you'd rather protect the rights of bigots like in the scenario i laid out then not face like it in reality?

I’d rather protect the rights of everyone, whether or not they’re bigots.

[Mystic Warriors]

I find it terrifying and disgusting that so many on the right think discrimination is ok. Nobody should be discriminated against for the way they are born or their religion. We can't allow this nation to go back. If anybody wants to know why I went from conservative to so far left, this thread is why.

[Mystic Warriors]

So you'd rather protect the rights of bigots like in the scenario i laid out then not face like it in reality?

I’d rather protect the rights of everyone, whether or not they’re bigots.

No. You cant use your rights to violate others.

[Mystic Warriors]

That's a hard argument - no one, at least in the United States, has unrestricted ownership of property. We even pay a tax on the land in most states.

In practical terms, we probably don't really "own" property. We have a really permissive lease.

And we’re back to removing the government.

Only the minority.

[The Srovsk State]

Yes, but listen here...

Discrimination especially in school is going to happen one way or another and
we cannot stop that from happening, we can only lessen it but there still will
be people who are unwilling to be welcome to others. However discrimination
should not be like in America 1950s where discrimination of black races are often
are harsh. It is wrong to discriminate but we cannot stop it from happening and only lessen
it like applying laws to protect vulnerable groups from discrimination. But, as I stated, some people
will discriminate, we just have to protect and help those who are being discriminated.

[Lerenzia]

I Personally believe a business shouldn't be allowed to deny you because of Race,sexuality,gender ETC as those are things you are unable to control and are born with,i do believe however that they are fully within their right to deny service to a Neo-nazi or a person of a certain religion. You CHOOSE to be a Neo-nazi.you CHOOSE to follow a certain religion,you don't choose to be black or to be a man/woman. If a business owner didn't want to have to serve Blacks,Women,men,etc they shouldn't have started their business in the first place,just my 2 cents on the matter.

[Telconi]

I find it terrifying and disgusting that so many on the right think discrimination is ok. Nobody should be discriminated against for the way they are born or their religion. We can't allow this nation to go back. If anybody wants to know why I went from conservative to so far left, this thread is why.

Who has said they think it's okay?

[Page]

I find it terrifying and disgusting that so many on the right think discrimination is ok. Nobody should be discriminated against for the way they are born or their religion. We can't allow this nation to go back. If anybody wants to know why I went from conservative to so far left, this thread is why.

Don't want to go off topic, but in the time I've been around here I've seen many of your posts and you are not far left.

[San Lumen]

I Personally believe a business shouldn't be allowed to deny you because of Race,sexuality,gender ETC as those are things you are unable to control and are born with,i do believe however that they are fully within their right to deny service to a Neo-nazi or a person of a certain religion. You CHOOSE to be a Neo-nazi.you CHOOSE to follow a certain religion,you don't choose to be black or to be a man/woman. If a business owner didn't want to have to serve Blacks,Women,men,etc they shouldn't have started their business in the first place,just my 2 cents on the matter.

Why religion? If a store or restaurant had a policy of no Jews or Muslims why would that be ok?

[Ors Might]

I find it terrifying and disgusting that so many on the right think discrimination is ok. Nobody should be discriminated against for the way they are born or their religion. We can't allow this nation to go back. If anybody wants to know why I went from conservative to so far left, this thread is why.

Oh it’s far from okay. It’s just that refusing to associate with certain people is well within the rights of the individual.

I’d rather protect the rights of everyone, whether or not they’re bigots.

No. You cant use your rights to violate others.

You think you have a right to a hypothetical wedding cake that hasn’t been made yet?

[Lerenzia]

I Personally believe a business shouldn't be allowed to deny you because of Race,sexuality,gender ETC as those are things you are unable to control and are born with,i do believe however that they are fully within their right to deny service to a Neo-nazi or a person of a certain religion. You CHOOSE to be a Neo-nazi.you CHOOSE to follow a certain religion,you don't choose to be black or to be a man/woman. If a business owner didn't want to have to serve Blacks,Women,men,etc they shouldn't have started their business in the first place,just my 2 cents on the matter.

Why religion? If a store or restaurant had a policy of no Jews or Muslims why would that be ok?

As I've already said,you can't choose if your black,white,yellow,red gay,straight and the likes but you can choose your religion. So i believe that while refusing someone due to something outside of their control is amoral and should be illegal,i also believe refusing someone because of their religion is Amoral but should be Legal seeing as you can choose to be religious,just like you can choose to be a Neo-nazi or a member of the KKK.

[Elwher]

Going up a notch from the wedding scenario, it was recently reported that a Massachusetts company sold genetic classification equipment to China, which they are using to track Muslims they find disruptive to their country. Many have express dismay that the company sold this equipment to the Chinese.

For those of you who feel that a business has no right to discriminate against certain customers, do you defend the company for selling to the Chinese? Or, to put it in the negative, should a company have the right to discriminate against sales due to the national origin of the customer?