Hoda Muthana, the prodigal American...

[US-SSR]

Nope. She basically renounced her American citizenship to join a bunch of shitbricks, she made her bed now the dumb cunt can lay in it and rot over there.
Actions have consequences.

Perhaps, but the US is still a nation of laws. Assuming she was indeed born in the US, then the only way she could have renounced her citizenship was by appearing before a US consular officer overseas and signing such a declaration. In the absence of such an act, she remains a US citizen and no act of hers other than renunciation overseas before a consular officer can remove her absolute right to return to the US

Next case please.

I don't care where she was born.

She was always a foreigner.

The law doesn't care what you think. She is a US citizen at birth. Because Amendment XIV. Next case.

The kid did nothing wrong

The kid was born in Syria and is Syrian.

Maybe so, but if the kid's mother, a US citizen, was physically present in the US for five years, two of them after attaining age 14, then the kid is a US citizen at birth as well and absolutely entitled to enter the US as such. Next case.

[US-SSR]

Not necessarily, at least under US law.
You cannot lose your citizenship unless you voluntarily renounced it.

That's false.

https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship

That's true.

You will no longer be an American citizen if you voluntarily give up (renounce) your U.S. citizenship. You might lose your U.S. citizenship in specific cases, including if you:

Run for public office in a foreign country (under certain conditions).
Enter military service in a foreign country (under certain conditions).
Intentionally acquire citizenship in a foreign country except if you acquire it through marriage to a foreign national; you may become a dual national instead.
Commit an act of treason against the United States.

emphasis added

Follow the links and you will see that "(under certain conditions)" means that as long as you do not intend to renounce your US citizenship by committing those acts, you do not lose your US citizenship. The Supreme Court has held in a number of cases (US citizen joins Israeli Army as officer, US citizen elected to position of responsibiity in foreign government, etc. etc.) that US citizenship cannot be revoked by any act by anyone who does not intend to give up US citizenship.

Such employment, however, will result in one's expatriation only if done voluntarily with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.

So the only effective way to give up US citizenship/have it revoked is by executing a statement to that effect before a US consular officer overseas. If our gal didn't do that, then she is a US citizen and as such absolutely entitled to return to her country of birth and citizenship.

Next.

Case.

[New Bremerton]

I wrote on the other thread that Shamima Begum should not be allowed to return to the UK because she "has no regrets" about joining ISIS as a civilian housewife, thereby proving her disloyalty to her country. In Hoda's case, the U.S. should ban her for a few years at least for disloyalty, then let her back in under close surveillance if the authorities determine that she may be genuinely repentant. Her kid should definitely be let in immediately with or without his/her mother. It's really suspicious that she would be able to say she no longer supports ISIS without being executed for apostasy in the process though. The DoHS should really look into that. As I wrote on the Shamima Begum thread, we should leave the decision to the authorities. It's not really for me or anyone here to decide Hoda's fate in the long term before all the facts are known.

British Muslim Maajid Nawaz was once a radical Muslim extremist who was arrested in Egypt for his links to terror group Hizb-ut-Tahrir. He had a change of heart while he was in prison and was subsequently deported back to the UK, where he now actively works to deradicalize Muslim extremists and change the mindsets of so-called moderate Muslims in his community, in addition to exposing the ideological hypocrisy of fellow Muslims and leftists alike who actively denounce far-right neo-Nazism and white supremacy but give radical Islam a free pass. My point being that Hoda Muthana and others could be genuinely remorseful about their actions, as Maajid was.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

That's false.

https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship

That's true.

You will no longer be an American citizen if you voluntarily give up (renounce) your U.S. citizenship. You might lose your U.S. citizenship in specific cases, including if you:

Run for public office in a foreign country (under certain conditions).
Enter military service in a foreign country (under certain conditions).
Intentionally acquire citizenship in a foreign country except if you acquire it through marriage to a foreign national; you may become a dual national instead.
Commit an act of treason against the United States.

emphasis added

Follow the links and you will see that "(under certain conditions)" means that as long as you do not intend to renounce your US citizenship by committing those acts, you do not lose your US citizenship. The Supreme Court has held in a number of cases (US citizen joins Israeli Army as officer, US citizen elected to position of responsibiity in foreign government, etc. etc.) that US citizenship cannot be revoked by any act by anyone who does not intend to give up US citizenship.

Such employment, however, will result in one's expatriation only if done voluntarily with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.

So the only effective way to give up US citizenship/have it revoked is by executing a statement to that effect before a US consular officer overseas. If our gal didn't do that, then she is a US citizen and as such absolutely entitled to return to her country of birth and citizenship.

Next.

Case.

...

wat

I specifically said you could lose it when convicted of treason and you focused... employment? Your statement was still false as you are again asserting that you cannot lose your citizenship without renouncing it. Which is, again, false. Are you just intentionally selectively reading?

[Kowani]

Same as the British one. Fuck ‘er.

[Ethel mermania]

That's false.

https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship

That's true.

You will no longer be an American citizen if you voluntarily give up (renounce) your U.S. citizenship. You might lose your U.S. citizenship in specific cases, including if you:

Run for public office in a foreign country (under certain conditions).
Enter military service in a foreign country (under certain conditions).
Intentionally acquire citizenship in a foreign country except if you acquire it through marriage to a foreign national; you may become a dual national instead.
Commit an act of treason against the United States.

emphasis added

Follow the links and you will see that "(under certain conditions)" means that as long as you do not intend to renounce your US citizenship by committing those acts, you do not lose your US citizenship. The Supreme Court has held in a number of cases (US citizen joins Israeli Army as officer, US citizen elected to position of responsibiity in foreign government, etc. etc.) that US citizenship cannot be revoked by any act by anyone who does not intend to give up US citizenship.

Such employment, however, will result in one's expatriation only if done voluntarily with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship.

So the only effective way to give up US citizenship/have it revoked is by executing a statement to that effect before a US consular officer overseas. If our gal didn't do that, then she is a US citizen and as such absolutely entitled to return to her country of birth and citizenship.

Next.

Case.

The winner is bolded above. Game over.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Take her back and put her on the receiving end of a firing squad.

Alternatively just leave her in Syria, they'll deal with her eventually.

[Novus America]

Not necessarily, at least under US law.
You cannot lose your citizenship unless you voluntarily renounced it.

That's false.

https://www.usa.gov/renounce-lose-citizenship

Committing treason with the intent to renounce your citizenship can be grounds to lose your citizenship. It is not automatic.
The courts have also rendered such rules nearly unenforceable as well.
You still have to have the specific intent to lose your citizenship.
Unfortunate as this might be, we still have to follow the laws until we are able to change them.

Plus there are laws against rendering someone stateless.

It might be possible to remove her citizenship here, and certainly that should be tried.
But given it is likely to be struck down by the courts, we need a back up plan.

Namely charging her with treason and every other possible crime she might have committed.

[Novus America]

That's true.



emphasis added

Follow the links and you will see that "(under certain conditions)" means that as long as you do not intend to renounce your US citizenship by committing those acts, you do not lose your US citizenship. The Supreme Court has held in a number of cases (US citizen joins Israeli Army as officer, US citizen elected to position of responsibiity in foreign government, etc. etc.) that US citizenship cannot be revoked by any act by anyone who does not intend to give up US citizenship.



So the only effective way to give up US citizenship/have it revoked is by executing a statement to that effect before a US consular officer overseas. If our gal didn't do that, then she is a US citizen and as such absolutely entitled to return to her country of birth and citizenship.

Next.

Case.

...

wat

I specifically said you could lose it when convicted of treason and you focused... employment? Your statement was still false as you are again asserting that you cannot lose your citizenship without renouncing it. Which is, again, false. Are you just intentionally selectively reading?

“To lose U.S. nationality, a person must both (1) voluntarily perform any of seven “expatriating” acts defined by law, [including treason] and (2) perform the act or acts with a conscious desire (or specific intent) to abandon (relinquish) his or her U.S. nationality.”
https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... nship.html

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Revoke citizenship. She can go back to Syria.

[Novus America]

Revoke citizenship. She can go back to Syria.

Again that is very difficult to do.
We absolutely should try it, but need a back up plan.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Revoke citizenship. She can go back to Syria.

Again that is very difficult to do.
We absolutely should try it, but need a back up plan.

Gitmo

[Novus America]

Again that is very difficult to do.
We absolutely should try it, but need a back up plan.

Gitmo

Possibly but I would prefer a normal trial, followed by life in ADX Florence.
Possibly execution, but I have some issues with the death penalty.

The issue with Gitmo is it is for combatants, and it is not clear she qualifies as a combatant.

But she absolutely is a criminal.

[Ethel mermania]

Gitmo

Possibly but I would prefer a normal trial, followed by life in ADX Florence.
Possibly execution, but I have some issues with the death penalty.

The issue with Gitmo is it is for combatants, and it is not clear she qualifies as a combatant.

But she absolutely is a criminal.

From the CNN article....

She demanded more Americans come to the self-proclaimed Caliphate and join the fight with ISIS.

"Soooo many Aussies and Brits here, but where are the Americans, wake up u cowards," she posted in January 2015.

And under the name Umm Jihad, she encouraged attacks in the US, tweeting this exhortation in March 2015: "Go on drive-bys and spill all of their blood, or rent a big truck and drive all over them."

According to Mia Bloom, who tracks female jihadis at Georgia State University, "She was one advocating for extreme violence, especially against American military and servicemen."

Sounds fairly combatant like to me.

[Grinning Dragon]

Gitmo

Possibly but I would prefer a normal trial, followed by life in ADX Florence.
Possibly execution, but I have some issues with the death penalty.

The issue with Gitmo is it is for combatants, and it is not clear she qualifies as a combatant.

But she absolutely is a criminal.

She did recruit for daesh and while she has been talking to the fbi about surrendering and if she does somehow make it back to the USA, she will be arrested, but she will need to get here on her own accord as the US has no obligation in lending any aid or financial support to aid in coming home nor can any family or friends help her as they too will be most likely charged and arrested in lending aid and support to a terrorist. Her best bet is to stay where she's at.

[Loben]

Let her rot.

[Ifreann]

"wants to deradicalize others"

Press X to doubt

She should be allowed back in if her renunciation of citizenship was not formal/legally valid, and then put on trial. Otherwise, she can go rot.

Renouncing your citizenship costs something like $3,000, I think, so I'd say there's a good chance she didn't actually do so.

[Novus America]

Possibly but I would prefer a normal trial, followed by life in ADX Florence.
Possibly execution, but I have some issues with the death penalty.

The issue with Gitmo is it is for combatants, and it is not clear she qualifies as a combatant.

But she absolutely is a criminal.

From the CNN article....

She demanded more Americans come to the self-proclaimed Caliphate and join the fight with ISIS.

"Soooo many Aussies and Brits here, but where are the Americans, wake up u cowards," she posted in January 2015.

And under the name Umm Jihad, she encouraged attacks in the US, tweeting this exhortation in March 2015: "Go on drive-bys and spill all of their blood, or rent a big truck and drive all over them."

According to Mia Bloom, who tracks female jihadis at Georgia State University, "She was one advocating for extreme violence, especially against American military and servicemen."

Sounds fairly combatant like to me.

She certainly committed treason, (amongst many other crimes), no doubt there.

According to the Geneva Convention “persons taking no active part in the hostilities” are not combatants.

Maybe she could be a combatant. Is tweeting in support enough to be taking active part in hostilities? Considering the importance of psychological warfare?
An interesting question no doubt.

But actually declaring her a combatants make things more difficult for us.
Combatants actually get more protections from criminals prosecution than civilians.

[Puldania]

There is no comparison between this case and the other
Hoda should be let back in and assessed, and allowed to atone by aiding in rehab programs. If the US was willing to take in former Nazis, I see no exception here.

[Thermodolia]

Gitmo

Possibly but I would prefer a normal trial, followed by life in ADX Florence.
Possibly execution, but I have some issues with the death penalty.

The issue with Gitmo is it is for combatants, and it is not clear she qualifies as a combatant.

But she absolutely is a criminal.

Nothing short of a military tribunal will be acceptable. She doesn’t deserve the right to a civilian trial

[Sovaal]

Lol nope. We already got more theocrats than we need. In fact I say we should start deporting some.

[Thermodolia]

There is no comparison between this case and the other
Hoda should be let back in and assessed, and allowed to atone by aiding in rehab programs. If the US was willing to take in former Nazis, I see no exception here.

The only reason we let in Nazis was because they had strategic value. If they didn’t we didn’t take them. Also the majority where Nazi in name only and pretty much just limited to the space wing

[Thermodolia]

"wants to deradicalize others"

Press X to doubt

She should be allowed back in if her renunciation of citizenship was not formal/legally valid, and then put on trial. Otherwise, she can go rot.

Renouncing your citizenship costs something like $3,000, I think, so I'd say there's a good chance she didn't actually do so.

No it doesn’t. You just tell your nearest consular official that you are renouncing your citizenship

[Sovaal]

There is no comparison between this case and the other
Hoda should be let back in and assessed, and allowed to atone by aiding in rehab programs. If the US was willing to take in former Nazis, I see no exception here.

The only reason we let in Nazis was because they had strategic value. If they didn’t we didn’t take them. Also the majority where Nazi in name only and pretty much just limited to the space wing

And last I checked, in Nazi Gemtmany it was mandatory to be a members of the Nazis party, while supporting ISIS is voluntary.

[Novus America]

Possibly but I would prefer a normal trial, followed by life in ADX Florence.
Possibly execution, but I have some issues with the death penalty.

The issue with Gitmo is it is for combatants, and it is not clear she qualifies as a combatant.

But she absolutely is a criminal.

Nothing short of a military tribunal will be acceptable. She doesn’t deserve the right to a civilian trial

I am not sure, given military tribunals are for combatants, and I am not sure she qualifies as one.
But really I am not particularly concerned what form the trial takes, so long as she gets held accountable for her crimes.