Should Anti-Discrimination Laws Apply to Religious Entities?

[Conserative Morality]

It's not necessarily a holy place, it's just become a pilgrimage spot because it's a very unique place where monks live in mostly isolation from the outside world.

My point stands. It's a place of cultural and religious significance. It's interesting. It's probably beautiful or someshit too. Whether or not they can go on the land isn't the point; the point is that they have legitimate reasons for desiring to do so. As the previous guy said

If they're not devout, that raises the question what the fuck are they doing there. Allowing women to "own deh monks" is hardly good policy.

This kind of Manichean dismissal of all other motives is some high-quality siege mentality. It's backwards as fuck.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

This kind of Manichean dismissal of all other motives is some high-quality siege mentality. It's backwards as fuck.

Hardly. If their desire to visit Athos as tourists overrides the monk's desire to live apart from society in worship of God, they're assholes. Its as simple as that.

[Conserative Morality]

Hardly. If their desire to visit Athos as tourists overrides the monk's desire to live apart from society in worship of God, they're assholes. Its as simple as that.

If you desire to live apart from society, why should society be expected to protect your interests? Make no mistake, allowing this to exist is an indulgence on our part. Indulgences can be revoked. And if the existence of this place breeds opinions like your's, I see no reason why it should be allowed to continue.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It's not necessarily a holy place, it's just become a pilgrimage spot because it's a very unique place where monks live in mostly isolation from the outside world.

My point stands. It's a place of cultural and religious significance. It's interesting. It's probably beautiful or someshit too. Whether or not they can go on the land isn't the point; the point is that they have legitimate reasons for desiring to do so. As the previous guy said

If they're not devout, that raises the question what the fuck are they doing there. Allowing women to "own deh monks" is hardly good policy.

This kind of Manichean dismissal of all other motives is some high-quality siege mentality. It's backwards as fuck.

I'm sure they have legitimate reasons to want to see it, but the monks don't want people going as tourists either, and ultimately it should be their decision. They've been there nearly 1000 years, after all.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

If you desire to live apart from society, why should society be expected to protect your interests? Make no mistake, allowing this to exist is an indulgence on our part. Indulgences can be revoked. And if the existence of this place breeds opinions like your's, I see no reason why it should be allowed to continue.

Well, it's a good thing nobody is asking your indulgence for Athos.

[Conserative Morality]

I'm sure they have legitimate reasons to want to see it, but the monks don't want people going as tourists either, and ultimately it should be their decision. They've been there nearly 1000 years, after all.

Again, my point is not that them having legitimate reasons is a reason to change it. It's not. My point is that the reasons for women wanting to see it extend beyond "own deh monks", as the other poster so eloquently put it. There are legitimate reasons beyond being religious or a knuckle-dragging neanderthal to want to see the place.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Hardly. If their desire to visit Athos as tourists overrides the monk's desire to live apart from society in worship of God, they're assholes. Its as simple as that.

If you desire to live apart from society, why should society be expected to protect your interests? Make no mistake, allowing this to exist is an indulgence on our part. Indulgences can be revoked. And if the existence of this place breeds opinions like your's, I see no reason why it should be allowed to continue.

Because it's a community that has lived in peace with the outside world for nearly a thousand years. It's an interesting place, largely still living as they did in Byzantine times, they even live by Byzantine time. It would be a shame to disband the community, not only from a religious perspective, but from a historical perspective, especially since any disbanding of the community would probably be followed by commercial development.

[Conserative Morality]

Well, it's a good thing nobody is asking your indulgence for Athos.

Don't worry - people like you breed opposition.

Because it's a community that has lived in peace with the outside world for nearly a thousand years. It's an interesting place, largely still living as they did in Byzantine times, they even live by Byzantine time. It would be a shame to disband the community, not only from a religious perspective, but from a historical perspective, especially since any disbanding of the community would probably be followed by commercial development.

I agree that it would be a shame. But ultimately it is an indulgence, as any such 'autonomous community' or like polity is. If the place bred opinions like "Women who dare to want to see things are assholes" as the previous poster seems to think, then its time as an indulgence would be running low. The health of broader society takes precedence over indulgences.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I'm with Muscovite and the monks in this delimma.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Well, it's a good thing nobody is asking your indulgence for Athos.

Don't worry - people like you breed opposition.

Because it's a community that has lived in peace with the outside world for nearly a thousand years. It's an interesting place, largely still living as they did in Byzantine times, they even live by Byzantine time. It would be a shame to disband the community, not only from a religious perspective, but from a historical perspective, especially since any disbanding of the community would probably be followed by commercial development.

I agree that it would be a shame. But ultimately it is an indulgence, as any such 'autonomous community' or like polity is. If the place bred opinions like "Women who dare to want to see things are assholes" as the previous poster seems to think, then its time as an indulgence would be running low. The health of broader society takes precedence over indulgences.

I don't think that's how most people see the ban on women entering, but even if it were, the monks themselves don't hold such an opinion, and in the past when women have illegally entered, the monks simply asked them to leave politely while saying that they had forgiven them.

[The National Salvation Front for Russia]

I agree that it would be a shame. But ultimately it is an indulgence, as any such 'autonomous community' or like polity is. If the place bred opinions like "Women who dare to want to see things are assholes" as the previous poster seems to think, then its time as an indulgence would be running low. The health of broader society takes precedence over indulgences.

In what world is running roughshod over a small group of monks "healthy"? I'm intrigued on how allowing women to visit their monastery would help the Human race. You're a tad too impressionable if you think Mount Athos breeds my sort of opinions, since the monks themselves have forgiven women who have accidentally land on Athos.

[Fahran]

I agree that it would be a shame. But ultimately it is an indulgence, as any such 'autonomous community' or like polity is. If the place bred opinions like "Women who dare to want to see things are assholes" as the previous poster seems to think, then its time as an indulgence would be running low. The health of broader society takes precedence over indulgences.

I would call a desire to see the community despite the protests of the monks, who actually live there and who have maintained a way of life there for a thousand years, a bit disrespectful. I think people are emotional and poorly-spoken about this issue, but I do think there's a kernel of legitimacy to what they've said. Would you insist on seeing an indigenous religious site even if the locals told you that outsiders weren't permitted to be there traditionally or that your presence in some way desecrated/disrespected their beliefs?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

I'm with Muscovite and the monks in this delimma.

Actually I take this back. What's the religious reason that these Arthos monks forbids women from coming to the monastery?

[Conserative Morality]

In what world is running roughshod over a small group of monks "healthy"? I'm intrigued on how allowing women to visit their monastery would help the Human race. You're a tad too impressionable if you think Mount Athos breeds my sort of opinions, since the monks themselves have forgiven women who have accidentally land on Athos.

As you so clearly show, the idea of nuance is beyond some people, who prefer to drag in innocent third parties into their pathetic culture war bullshit regardless of the opinions of the monks themselves. If you choose a village as the battlefield, don't be surprised when it's flattened. =^)

[Fahran]

Actually I take this back. What's the religious reason that these Arthos monks forbids women from coming to the monastery?

Should I be allowed to visit the Sacred Mosque in Mecca? What reason do the Saudis have to prevent me from strolling there?

[United Muscovite Nations]

I'm with Muscovite and the monks in this delimma.

Actually I take this back. What's the religious reason that these Arthos monks forbids women from coming to the monastery?

It's less of a religious reason and more than the monks think women would distract young monks. There is a religious reason in that the monks believe the peninsula was gifted to the Theotokos, and thus it would be wrong to venerate any other woman on the peninsula.

[Conserative Morality]

I would call a desire to see the community despite the protests of the monks, who actually live there and who have maintained a way of life there for a thousand years, a bit disrespectful. I think people are emotional and poorly-spoken about this issue, but I do think there's a kernel of legitimacy to what they've said. Would you insist on seeing an indigenous religious site even if the locals told you that outsiders weren't permitted to be there traditionally or that your presence in some way desecrated/disrespected their beliefs?

Is it illegal? Do they own the land? If not, then yeah, I would insist. No, actually, I wouldn't insist - there would be no need to insist, since I wouldn't need their permission. Especially since I have a modicum of respect for established religions like Christianity, but no such regard for a random indigenous religion with no cultural relevance to me or my society.

Individuals follow their own moral codes, not the moral codes of others. I don't really know why you think I would obey the moral code of people whose beliefs I don't share.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Actually I take this back. What's the religious reason that these Arthos monks forbids women from coming to the monastery?

Should I be allowed to visit the Sacred Mosque in Mecca? What reason do the Saudis have to prevent me from strolling there?

Actually yes you should (as long as you don't desecrate it lol). Monotheists aren't banned from visiting Makkah. Saudi is crazy, they do crazy stuff.

Actually I take this back. What's the religious reason that these Arthos monks forbids women from coming to the monastery?

It's less of a religious reason and more than the monks think women would distract young monks.

Well then like I said earlier, have the women dress modestly and have the men behave. Or separate either the monastery itself or the plot of land tye monastery owns into a men's side and women's side.

There is a religious reason in that the monks believe the peninsula was gifted to the Theotokos, and thus it would be wrong to venerate any other woman on the peninsula.

Please explain.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Should I be allowed to visit the Sacred Mosque in Mecca? What reason do the Saudis have to prevent me from strolling there?

Actually yes you should (as long as you don't desecrate it lol). Monotheists aren't banned from visiting Makkah. Saudi is crazy, they do crazy stuff.

It's less of a religious reason and more than the monks think women would distract young monks.

Well then like I said earlier, have the women dress modestly and have the men behave.

There is a religious reason in that the monks believe the peninsula was gifted to the Theotokos, and thus it would be wrong to venerate any other woman on the peninsula.

Please explain.

The monks aren't worried about sexual assault, crime is practically non-existent on Athos, what they're worried about is several-fold. The biggest worry is that monks will be distracted during worship (let's not pretend that people in ordinary church services aren't distracted by members of the opposite sex), and a lesser one is that monks could come to regret their vows. And while monks are allowed to leave Athos, the monks don't want to second-guess themselves if they meet someone.

The monks worry that if women are on the peninsula, they would receive attention that should be given to the Theotokos and Christ.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

misogynist traditions should be abolished. they don't belong in the modern world.

[Fahran]

Is it illegal? Do they own the land? If not, then yeah, I would insist. No, actually, I wouldn't insist - there would be no need to insist, since I wouldn't need their permission.

They have had court cases and battles to resolve issues like this historically. That sounds a lot like insisting.

Especially since I have a modicum of respect for established religions like Christianity, but no such regard for a random indigenous religion with no cultural relevance to me or my society.

That attitude is more than a little chauvinistic, you know? As a guest, you ought to defer to a community's rules and conventions to a reasonable extent. We ask our guests to do the same generally.

Individuals follow their own moral codes, not the moral codes of others. I don't really know why you think I would obey the moral code of people whose beliefs I don't share.

Courtesy, tolerance, and mutual respect between a host and guest.

[United Muscovite Nations]

misogynist traditions should be abolished. they don't belong in the modern world.

Why? Is it really a modern value to dictate to religious groups what they're allowed to believe about who should lead their religious groups and who should administer the sacraments? The only way to realistically enforce this would be to disband some of these churches, because many of them would not accept such forced reforms.

[Conserative Morality]

The monks aren't worried about sexual assault, crime is practically non-existent on Athos, what they're worried about is several-fold. The biggest worry is that monks will be distracted during worship (let's not pretend that people in ordinary church services aren't distracted by members of the opposite sex),

I don't know about that, whenever I was in church, being surrounded by crusty old folks always put a dampener on the ol' male gaze.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The monks aren't worried about sexual assault, crime is practically non-existent on Athos, what they're worried about is several-fold. The biggest worry is that monks will be distracted during worship (let's not pretend that people in ordinary church services aren't distracted by members of the opposite sex),

I don't know about that, whenever I was in church, being surrounded by crusty old folks always put a dampener on the ol' male gaze.

You joke, but one of the women whose snuck into the monastic republic was a beauty pageant winner.

[Fahran]

Actually yes you should (as long as you don't desecrate it lol). Monotheists aren't banned from visiting Makkah. Saudi is crazy, they do crazy stuff.

The sources I've found state that non-Muslims aren't even allowed to visit Mecca, much less the sacred sites present in the city. This arguably extends to other Islamic Holy Sites given that there were riots when Ariel Sharon forced his way into the Dome of the Rock.