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Should Anti-Discrimination Laws Apply to Religious Entities?

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United Muscovite Nations
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Should Anti-Discrimination Laws Apply to Religious Entities?

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:49 pm

This is a thread I've wanted to make for a while, it has nothing to do with any threads recently created, I was inspired by this story: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indi ... SKCN1OW07Q

For those who didn't hear when this was still in the news a couple months ago, a Left Wing Indian state government brought to the Indian Supreme Court an anti-discrimination lawsuit against a Hindu temple which historically doesn't allow women to worship at it for religious reasons. The Indian Supreme Court agreed, and within a few weeks, Indian police forced the temple to allow women to enter, after which there was a purification ceremony for the temple. I was disturbed by the way which BBC World Service radio reported on the issue, as they made it sound like a triumph for women's rights, but it seemed to me to be an intrusion for the purpose of violating tradition for its own sake. As Indian politicians were quick to point out, women had protested against the Supreme Court ruling, saying that truly devout women would respect the god's wish for women to not visit his temple. It also reminded me of something in my own church.

In 2003, the European Parliament passed a resolution requesting that Greece force the Monastic Republic of Mount Athos, a territory governed by Monastic communes, be forced to admit women into its borders based on the principle of gender equality. Mount Athos has had a ban on women entering the monasteries since the middle ages, with some religious reasons, but mostly because the monks there fear two things 1) that if women are allowed in, novice monks will be distracted, and 2) if women are allowed, then whole families will be allowed to visit the area and their monastery would become a tourist trap. Regardless of what one thinks of these reasons, I would say that the monks have their right to separate themselves from the outside world, as they've done for nearly a thousand years.

Moreover, how far could these principles of anti-discrimination go? Could the Catholic Church be forced to allow women to become priests, in violation of its ancient teachings? These organizations are not businesses or public entities, but are private groups with closed memberships, surely there is a legal principle that would allow them to remain as such.
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Hammer Britannia
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Wed Feb 13, 2019 6:53 pm

Don't care, it's their private property. If a church wants to bar women, so be it.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:18 pm

Ana Farge wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:Don't care, it's their private property. If a church wants to bar women, so be it.


What if a cake shop wants to ban homosexuals?

What if a landlord wants to ban blacks?

This is why I think there has to be more to it than just that it's private property.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:19 pm

Sure, as soon as they receive absolutely no financial support from the government whatsoever and start paying taxes.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:20 pm

Neutraligon wrote:Sure, as soon as they receive absolutely no financial support from the government whatsoever and start paying taxes.

I have no problem with religious entities not receiving funds and paying taxes, but if we used this logic, shouldn't it apply to all private entities? As I said, there is more to it than simply being a private entity.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:20 pm

Seems like a dick move to force religious organizations and temples to accept members and worshippers that violate their faith.
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Postby Ors Might » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:23 pm

Ana Farge wrote:
Hammer Britannia wrote:Don't care, it's their private property. If a church wants to bar women, so be it.


What if a cake shop wants to ban homosexuals?

What if a landlord wants to ban blacks?

In regards to the cake shop, I have no problem with it as long as they make it perfectly clear from the get go who they do and do not serve.

As for the landlord, well, we’re running into tricky territory. That’s a pretty damn essential service, as in one has a much greater chance of dying without housing. Not entirely sure what ones position should be there.
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Postby Korhal IVV » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:23 pm

Ors Might wrote:Seems like a dick move to force religious organizations and temples to accept members and worshippers that violate their faith.

Basically this.
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Postby Neutraligon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:24 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:Sure, as soon as they receive absolutely no financial support from the government whatsoever and start paying taxes.

I have no problem with religious entities not receiving funds and paying taxes, but if we used this logic, shouldn't it apply to all private entities? As I said, there is more to it than simply being a private entity.

If private institutions want to not receive any government funding whatsoever and pay taxes then sure. I mean something like clubs already exist in the US.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:25 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:I have no problem with religious entities not receiving funds and paying taxes, but if we used this logic, shouldn't it apply to all private entities? As I said, there is more to it than simply being a private entity.

If private institutions want to not receive any government funding whatsoever and pay taxes then sure. I mean something like clubs already exist in the US.

To use the cake shop example, how does that receive government funding?
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:35 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:If private institutions want to not receive any government funding whatsoever and pay taxes then sure. I mean something like clubs already exist in the US.

To use the cake shop example, how does that receive government funding?

I have no idea if they receive things like government assistance.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:38 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:To use the cake shop example, how does that receive government funding?

I have no idea if they receive things like government assistance.

I don't know why they would. Most small businesses don't.
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:03 pm

I'm with Muscovite in this, but then again I have a veeeeeerry liberal interpretation of "religious freedom".

As for OP's reference to that Greek monastery, the reasons that monastery laid out are weak. For #1, just have the women dress modestly and things should be fine. For #2, Muslimahs make Hajj all the time (usually in groups) and we Muslims don't see it as a tourist site.
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Postby The South Falls » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:05 pm

Yes. We have given religious entities enough concession, so we should at least subject them to some law.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:07 pm

The South Falls wrote:Yes. We have given religious entities enough concession, so we should at least subject them to some law.

For what purpose would this fulfill though?
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:12 pm

The South Falls wrote:Yes. We have given religious entities enough concession, so we should at least subject them to some law.

But why though? This is just doing it to just do it.
Last edited by Ors Might on Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:13 pm

Eternal Lotharia wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Seems like a dick move to force religious organizations and temples to accept members and worshippers that violate their faith.

Basically.

We need to stop with the idea that we can force our political beliefs on religious organizations without violating freedom of religion. If they believe things we dislike, then dammit, we can't force them to change it. And to tax them?

That's another way of preventing religious freedom.

I value American values thank you, let's not be metaphorically PRC or North Korean about this(Pushing them to accept what we deem politically correct, and not allowing their beliefs to be taught, and penalizing them for their beliefs). It's anti-constitutional, and goes against religious liberty. We have no right to interpret their religion or tell them their interpretations of their texts and what they imply are right or wrong.

Eh. If they receive government assistance, then they should be subject to taxation. Otherwise, don’t see much reason to.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Wed Feb 13, 2019 8:17 pm

Eternal Lotharia wrote:
Ors Might wrote:Eh. If they receive government assistance, then they should be subject to taxation. Otherwise, don’t see much reason to.


Well, yeah.

But, if not, they shouldn't be taxed. I've always disagreed with religious services being taxed, for the fact that it denies a place of worship if the government politically disagrees with that church. Always seemed to me to be a tool of religious discrimination.

And let me make it clear:

I, a Christian, believe these rights extend to Mosques too.

Pretty much.
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Postby Woodfiredpizzas » Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:51 pm

No private entity should have anti discrimination laws applied to them.
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LiberNovusAmericae
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Sat Feb 16, 2019 5:38 pm

Woodfiredpizzas wrote:No private entity should have anti discrimination laws applied to them.

This ^^ I don't like discrimination, but it's not the government's job to regulate private entities in such a manor.

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Postby Aclion » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:28 pm

I think it's time we come to terms with the fact that enforcing nondiscrimination laws against private parties means we can't have a general principle of nondiscrimination. We're going to have to start picking sides.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Feb 16, 2019 7:36 pm

Although it may seem like a black and white issue, it isn’t. I’m all for having religious institutions pay taxes to the state. However, I am careful when it comes to what they have a right to do or not. The monastery, for example, should have a right to reserve rights of admission (many businesses do too. Some won’t serve you if you’re not wearing clothes, for example) to their property. I find their reasoning backwards, to be fair, but Mount Arthos is theirs so, their rules. They’re not hurting anyone.
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Postby Gavandenia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 2:20 am

Most religions exist only to brainwash and control gullible people, so I feel satisfaction when religions get fucked over in one way or another.

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Postby Conserative Morality » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:54 am

The temple is literally run by the government. Discrimination by the government is unacceptable. The monastic republic is subject to EU laws as a self-governing territory. If you want to be protected by national and not international laws, best be part of a nation unambiguously. Can't have your cake and eat it too. That being said, I support their right to determine who joins their club and enters their land.
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sun Feb 17, 2019 6:59 am

Neutraligon wrote:Sure, as soon as they receive absolutely no financial support from the government whatsoever and start paying taxes.
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