Italy's Salvini May Face Trial for 'Kidnapping' Migrants

[Evil Dictators Happyland]

Because you're calling for mass suicide.

I’m not. I’m just saying I don’t care about the distance. I never said they had to swim.

Ideally, the illegal immigrants would simply be taken by boat back to their country of origin.

Technically, you didn't say that, but if you actually read the post you were replying to, you'd see that it was in response to someone who did say that.

(posts are in chronological order and broken up because of the limit on nested quotes)

He was using a government entity to prevent the entrance of illegal immigrants into his country.

I don’t see what’s wrong here.

That's because Salvini isn't in the wrong here. Either the captain could've taken the migrants back to Libya, or the migrants could've swam back to the coast of Libya themselves. It's really not that hard to understand.

" or the migrants could've swam back to the coast of Libya themselves"

I really don't get where you get the idea this is possible from. For instance, swimming the English Channel at its narrowest point (approximately twenty miles) is considered a challenge even for athletes in their prime. Sicily to Libya is even further, and these people probably aren't professional athletes.

Also not to mention that many are coming from poverty and thus not well fed and not in great shape. So the idea of them swimming from Sicily to Libya is utterly ridiculous.

For the record, that's a distance of about 500 miles.

And we should care why?

Because you're calling for mass suicide.

I’m not. I’m just saying I don’t care about the distance. I never said they had to swim.

Ideally, the illegal immigrants would simply be taken by boat back to their country of origin.

Maybe you should read what people are actually saying before you start telling them that they're wrong.

[Ifreann]

Because you're calling for mass suicide.

I’m not. I’m just saying I don’t care about the distance. I never said they had to swim.

Ideally, the illegal immigrants would simply be taken by boat back to their country of origin.

What is their country of origin? You'd have to interview them all to find out.

[Sicaris]

I’m not. I’m just saying I don’t care about the distance. I never said they had to swim.

Ideally, the illegal immigrants would simply be taken by boat back to their country of origin.

Technically, you didn't say that, but if you actually read the post you were replying to, you'd see that it was in response to someone who did say that.

(posts are in chronological order and broken up because of the limit on nested quotes)

He was using a government entity to prevent the entrance of illegal immigrants into his country.

I don’t see what’s wrong here.

That's because Salvini isn't in the wrong here. Either the captain could've taken the migrants back to Libya, or the migrants could've swam back to the coast of Libya themselves. It's really not that hard to understand.

" or the migrants could've swam back to the coast of Libya themselves"

I really don't get where you get the idea this is possible from. For instance, swimming the English Channel at its narrowest point (approximately twenty miles) is considered a challenge even for athletes in their prime. Sicily to Libya is even further, and these people probably aren't professional athletes.

Also not to mention that many are coming from poverty and thus not well fed and not in great shape. So the idea of them swimming from Sicily to Libya is utterly ridiculous.

For the record, that's a distance of about 500 miles.

And we should care why?

Because you're calling for mass suicide.

I’m not. I’m just saying I don’t care about the distance. I never said they had to swim.

Ideally, the illegal immigrants would simply be taken by boat back to their country of origin.

Maybe you should read what people are actually saying before you start telling them that they're wrong.

I know what I’m saying. Don’t act like I’m stupid; I’m not.

And no, there’s no technicality about it. I never called for Libyan refugees to mass suicide by trying to swim back. I was saying I don’t care about the distance.

[Trumptonium1]

And we should care why?

Because you're calling for mass suicide.

it's not "calling for suicide" if you don't pull back the person who is standing on the bridge.

[Des-Bal]

it's not "calling for suicide" if you don't pull back the person who is standing on the bridge.

That's the scenario. In this case someone had a near deadly accident, you rescued them, took them onto the relative safety of the bridge, and said "you aren't getting out of here unless you jump." That's Saw shit.

[Ifreann]

Technically, you didn't say that, but if you actually read the post you were replying to, you'd see that it was in response to someone who did say that.

(posts are in chronological order and broken up because of the limit on nested quotes)

Maybe you should read what people are actually saying before you start telling them that they're wrong.

I know what I’m saying. Don’t act like I’m stupid; I’m not.

And no, there’s no technicality about it. I never called for Libyan refugees to mass suicide by trying to swim back. I was saying I don’t care about the distance.

You should care, with regards to the suggestion that they swim back to Libya, because it's too far to swim and they'd drown.

[Alvecia]

Because you're calling for mass suicide.

I’m not. I’m just saying I don’t care about the distance. I never said they had to swim.

Ideally, the illegal immigrants would simply be taken by boat back to their country of origin.

Assuming Syria would allow Italian ships to enter their waters.

[Sicaris]

I’m not. I’m just saying I don’t care about the distance. I never said they had to swim.

Ideally, the illegal immigrants would simply be taken by boat back to their country of origin.

Assuming Syria would allow Italian ships to enter their waters.

Ideally, not realistically.

[Trumptonium1]

it's not "calling for suicide" if you don't pull back the person who is standing on the bridge.

That's the scenario. In this case someone had a near deadly accident, you rescued them, took them onto the relative safety of the bridge, and said "you aren't getting out of here unless you jump." That's Saw shit.

This gets filed under the "too bad" bookcase.

The country doesn't want them, and law cannot be changed. The only option is to flout the law in the name of common sense.

[Des-Bal]

Ideally, not realistically.

Then we're back to mass suicide.

[Vassenor]

Assuming Syria would allow Italian ships to enter their waters.

Ideally, not realistically.

So suddenly the "more practical" option is no longer the realistic option.

[Sicaris]

He was using a government entity to prevent the entrance of illegal immigrants into his country.

I don’t see what’s wrong here.

For one, everything you just said.

In what way?

[Alvecia]

Assuming Syria would allow Italian ships to enter their waters.

Ideally, not realistically.

Ideally they wouldn't need to be fleeing to Europe in the first place, but they are, so that's what we're talking about.

[Andsed]

That's the scenario. In this case someone had a near deadly accident, you rescued them, took them onto the relative safety of the bridge, and said "you aren't getting out of here unless you jump." That's Saw shit.

This gets filed under the "too bad" bookcase.

The country doesn't want them, and law cannot be changed. The only option is to flout the law in the name of common sense.

That is incredibly heartless dude. I mean you do understand there are children in this migrant group right?

[Trumptonium1]

This gets filed under the "too bad" bookcase.

The country doesn't want them, and law cannot be changed. The only option is to flout the law in the name of common sense.

That is incredibly heartless dude. I mean you do understand there are children in this migrant group right?

Yes, they have pretty shitty parents indeed.

But given the ultra liberal UN even says less than 25% of migrants into Europe are from Syria / Iraq / Afghanistan (all three of which are mostly safe now anyway) and of those only 20% are children, it's a non-issue.
https://data2.unhcr.org/en/situations/mediterranean

[Des-Bal]

This gets filed under the "too bad" bookcase.

The country doesn't want them, and law cannot be changed. The only option is to flout the law in the name of common sense.

Saw is more correctly filed in the "genuinely indefensible behavior" section.

[Andsed]

That is incredibly heartless dude. I mean you do understand there are children in this migrant group right?

Yes, they have pretty shitty parents indeed.

But given the ultra liberal UN even says less than 25% of migrants into Europe are from Syria / Iraq and of those only 20% are children, it's a non-issue.
https://data2.unhcr.org/en/situations/mediterranean

Your still telling people that have come from awful situations in hopes of a better life that you don't want them and telling them they can only leave if they jump and swim which will surely cause many of them to drown.

[Trumptonium1]

This gets filed under the "too bad" bookcase.

The country doesn't want them, and law cannot be changed. The only option is to flout the law in the name of common sense.

Saw is more correctly filed in the "genuinely indefensible behavior" section.

I missed the memo where objective morality is decided by the minority of the population.

How many African poverty-escapers do you host in your house?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Saw is more correctly filed in the "genuinely indefensible behavior" section.

I missed the memo where objective morality is decided by the minority of the population.

How many African poverty-escapers do you host in your house?

Ironic how they probably have never hosted migrants in their house while my own family did...

It was a highly negative experience that led to severe conflicts, let me tell you that.

[Trumptonium1]

Yes, they have pretty shitty parents indeed.

But given the ultra liberal UN even says less than 25% of migrants into Europe are from Syria / Iraq and of those only 20% are children, it's a non-issue.
https://data2.unhcr.org/en/situations/mediterranean

Your still telling people that have come from awful situations in hopes of a better life that you don't want them and telling them they can only leave if they jump and swim which will surely cause many of them to drown.

The answer to your strawman is yes.

I'm not saying they can only leave by jumping, I'm saying they shouldn't have been picked up in the first place. People entering Italian waters illegally is not Italy's problem, let alone rescuing people in Tunisian waters.

They have plenty of places to go. I heard Spain and Germany are still taking people.

[Des-Bal]

I missed the memo where objective morality is decided by the minority of the population.

How many African poverty-escapers do you host in your house?

Exactly as many as I've agreed to as a matter of law.

[Trumptonium1]

I missed the memo where objective morality is decided by the minority of the population.

How many African poverty-escapers do you host in your house?

Ironic how they probably have never hosted migrants in their house while my own family did...

It was a highly negative experience that led to severe conflicts, let me tell you that.

We never did, although my super-Catholic aunt has. Suffice to say she's not that Catholic anymore. Although the people weren't even that bad in personality. Just 150 years behind in behaviour. If I remember they were Assyriacs.

[Trumptonium1]

I missed the memo where objective morality is decided by the minority of the population.

How many African poverty-escapers do you host in your house?

Exactly as many as I've agreed to as a matter of law.

Don't escape the question - how many African poverty-escapers are there in your house?

[Ifreann]

For one, everything you just said.

In what way?

Salvini wasn't using any government entity, he was exercising his own power as Minister of the Interior. Possibly illegally.

Salvini wasn't preventing the entrance of anyone into Italy. The people in question were on an Italian coast guard vessel, docked in a Sicilian port. They were already in Italy.

And they may not necessarily have been illegal immigrants. It's possible that if they'd been allowed to disembark and had their immigration status assessed that they'd have been allowed to stay in Italy entirely legally. You can no more say that these people were illegal immigrants than I could say that Salvini is a criminal. There's legal procedures to be gone through before we can make that determination.

[Trumptonium1]

In what way?

Salvini wasn't using any government entity, he was exercising his own power as Minister of the Interior. Possibly illegally.

Salvini wasn't preventing the entrance of anyone into Italy. The people in question were on an Italian coast guard vessel, docked in a Sicilian port. They were already in Italy.

And they may not necessarily have been illegal immigrants. It's possible that if they'd been allowed to disembark and had their immigration status assessed that they'd have been allowed to stay in Italy entirely legally. You can no more say that these people were illegal immigrants than I could say that Salvini is a criminal. There's legal procedures to be gone through before we can make that determination.

Italy begins on land not on water.