Italy's Salvini May Face Trial for 'Kidnapping' Migrants

[Trumptonium1]

I remember the street protests and quasi-riots when Wilders and Le Pen got huge fines and arrest threats in the Netherlands and France.

I cannot imagine what would happen if Salvini gets arrested for real. It's like a fast forward to European Union's and liberal democracy's end.

Here's hoping.

The British judiciary on Brexit, the French judiciary on Le Pen, the German judiciary on Petry, the Dutch judiciary on Wilders, they're all fifth columns. Please please Italian establishment, make this happen.

[Ifreann]

If only there was some way that people on an Italian coast guard vessel could have been delivered into the custody of the relevant Italian government agency, who could have sorted out who among them could stay in Italy and who among them would have to be deported.

Alas, this is impossible, and the only way to keep migrants from freely roaming Italy is to hold them on Italian coast guard vessels until some other nations offer to take them in.

I would just send them all back to where they came from.

Cool. You're going to need to interview them all to determine where they came from. These are people who were rescued in the middle of the sea, they don't exactly have tickets listing the port they left from, and they may not even be citizens of whatever nation they did depart from.

And even if you could find out where the people you had rescued had left from, it would really not go down well for Italian coast guard vessels to be entering the territorial waters of other nations to drop rescued people off at their ports without asking permission first.

---

No, he couldn't have taken them to Libya, because he can only take the ship he commands where he's told to take it. He would have needed permission from his superiors to go to Libya. And they would probably need to get the agreement of the Libyan authorities. And Salvini is not his superior.

He could have disgorged the migrants into the sea. Not very nice but definitely not kidnap.

If he had thrown them overboard he would have had a duty to rescue them, so that's right back to square one.

[Vassenor]

No, he couldn't have taken them to Libya, because he can only take the ship he commands where he's told to take it. He would have needed permission from his superiors to go to Libya. And they would probably need to get the agreement of the Libyan authorities. And Salvini is not his superior.

He could have disgorged the migrants into the sea. Not very nice but definitely not kidnap.

Pretty sure murder is worse than kidnap, yes.

[Genivaria]

No, because Italy is closed to migrants. Have I not made that fact clear enough?

Italy is closed to NGO vessels carrying migrants, per your own source.

Kust's argument really isn't coherent.

[Sougra]

In my opinion, nothing wrong was done. Italy can’t take every schmuck who wants to come and yes they are illegal immigrants even if refugees because they are still attempting to enter Italy without going through the immigration process which is,again in my opinion, unfair that they can just enter freely while others who want to come legally and are doing the immigration process have to wait for acceptance.

I'm speaking from memory, but you do realize that refugees, as per international law, do not have to follow the immigration process of a country so long as they register themselves as refugees as soon as possible, right? Because I believe that's a massive part of international law, that every nation in the UN must adhere to, last I recall. If I'm wrong, of course, I'd like to see how. Here is an explainer on refugee law from the International Justice Resource Center, which I think provides a pretty comprehensive overview of what rights asylum seekers and refugees have:

https://ijrcenter.org/refugee-law/#Who_Is_a_Refugee

[Ifreann]

No, he couldn't have taken them to Libya, because he can only take the ship he commands where he's told to take it. He would have needed permission from his superiors to go to Libya. And they would probably need to get the agreement of the Libyan authorities. And Salvini is not his superior.

I don't know the exact process, but I would assume that the captain would've needed to make a decision at some point.

I'm confident that this all happened well above the captain's pay grade.

---

And he decided to take the rescued individuals to Italian soil.

No, because Italy is closed to migrants. Have I not made that fact clear enough?

Italy is playing Ireland in the Six Nations on the 24th of February. In the Stadio Olimpico in Rome.

Walk me through how a foreign sports team and all their supporters are going to play/attend a match in Rome if Italy is closed to migrants.

[Vassenor]

In my opinion, nothing wrong was done. Italy can’t take every schmuck who wants to come and yes they are illegal immigrants even if refugees because they are still attempting to enter Italy without going through the immigration process which is,again in my opinion, unfair that they can just enter freely while others who want to come legally and are doing the immigration process have to wait for acceptance.

You do realize that refugees, as per international law, do not have to follow the immigration process of a country so long as they register themselves as refugees as soon as possible, right? Because I believe that's a massive part of international law, that every nation in the UN must adhere to, last I recall. If I'm wrong, of course, I'd like to see how. Here is an explainer on refugee law from the International Justice Resource Center, which I think provides a pretty comprehensive overview of what rights asylum seekers and refugees have:

https://ijrcenter.org/refugee-law/#Who_Is_a_Refugee

And this is why everyone is desperately trying to avoid using the term to refer to them.

[Trumptonium1]

In my opinion, nothing wrong was done. Italy can’t take every schmuck who wants to come and yes they are illegal immigrants even if refugees because they are still attempting to enter Italy without going through the immigration process which is,again in my opinion, unfair that they can just enter freely while others who want to come legally and are doing the immigration process have to wait for acceptance.

I'm speaking from memory, but you do realize that refugees, as per international law, do not have to follow the immigration process of a country so long as they register themselves as refugees as soon as possible, right? Because I believe that's a massive part of international law, that every nation in the UN must adhere to, last I recall. If I'm wrong, of course, I'd like to see how. Here is an explainer on refugee law from the International Justice Resource Center, which I think provides a pretty comprehensive overview of what rights asylum seekers and refugees have:

https://ijrcenter.org/refugee-law/#Who_Is_a_Refugee

Refugee and illegal immigrant is interchangeable. An unwanted migrant cannot be a refugee.

The acceptability of refugees depends on the host government and society. In Italy, that is clearly not the case, and hence refugees do not and can not exist. They're illegal immigrants trying to gain access to a country that 1) declares them as such 2) doesn't want them there.

[Trumptonium1]

You do realize that refugees, as per international law, do not have to follow the immigration process of a country so long as they register themselves as refugees as soon as possible, right? Because I believe that's a massive part of international law, that every nation in the UN must adhere to, last I recall. If I'm wrong, of course, I'd like to see how. Here is an explainer on refugee law from the International Justice Resource Center, which I think provides a pretty comprehensive overview of what rights asylum seekers and refugees have:

https://ijrcenter.org/refugee-law/#Who_Is_a_Refugee

And this is why everyone is desperately trying to avoid using the term to refer to them.

And is this also why liberals are desperately trying to avoid using the term 'refugee' on white Ukrainian refugees?

Doesn't fit the agenda

Ay lmao

[Ifreann]

I'm speaking from memory, but you do realize that refugees, as per international law, do not have to follow the immigration process of a country so long as they register themselves as refugees as soon as possible, right? Because I believe that's a massive part of international law, that every nation in the UN must adhere to, last I recall. If I'm wrong, of course, I'd like to see how. Here is an explainer on refugee law from the International Justice Resource Center, which I think provides a pretty comprehensive overview of what rights asylum seekers and refugees have:

https://ijrcenter.org/refugee-law/#Who_Is_a_Refugee

Refugee and illegal immigrant is interchangeable. An unwanted migrant cannot be a refugee.

The acceptability of refugees depends on the host government and society. In Italy, that is clearly not the case, and hence refugees do not and can not exist. They're illegal immigrants trying to gain access to a country that 1) declares them as such 2) doesn't want them there.

Oh dear, he's gotten into the devil's lettuce again.

[Vassenor]

And this is why everyone is desperately trying to avoid using the term to refer to them.

And is this also why liberals are desperately trying to avoid using the term 'refugee' on white Ukrainian refugees?

Doesn't fit the agenda

Ay lmao

Did you pull something reaching for that gotcha?

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I would just send them all back to where they came from.

Cool. You're going to need to interview them all to determine where they came from. These are people who were rescued in the middle of the sea, they don't exactly have tickets listing the port they left from, and they may not even be citizens of whatever nation they did depart from.

And even if you could find out where the people you had rescued had left from, it would really not go down well for Italian coast guard vessels to be entering the territorial waters of other nations to drop rescued people off at their ports without asking permission first.

---

I would be willing to do that if the alternative is economic migrants coming in, because the idea that Europe should take care of every third world refugee is absolutely ridiculous.

[Bienenhalde]

I mean I know that conservatives have a hard-on for trying to force us to refer to refugees as illegal migrants because it makes it easier to demonise them and to pretend that governments don't have responsibilities towards them as enshrined in international law, but...

Please stop making stupid over generalizations. You are referring to "right-wing populists" not conservatives. Remember how Angela Merkel supported refugees?

[Vassenor]

I mean I know that conservatives have a hard-on for trying to force us to refer to refugees as illegal migrants because it makes it easier to demonise them and to pretend that governments don't have responsibilities towards them as enshrined in international law, but...

Please stop making stupid over generalizations. You are referring to "right-wing populists" not conservatives. Remember how Angela Merkel supported refugees?

So how is "there are conservatives that" a generalisation?

[LiberNovusAmericae]

And is this also why liberals are desperately trying to avoid using the term 'refugee' on white Ukrainian refugees?

Doesn't fit the agenda

Ay lmao

Did you pull something reaching for that gotcha?

Pointing out hypocrisy isn't a cheap gotcha. Also, I just used the term; We right wingers aren't afraid of terms.

[Sougra]

I'm speaking from memory, but you do realize that refugees, as per international law, do not have to follow the immigration process of a country so long as they register themselves as refugees as soon as possible, right? Because I believe that's a massive part of international law, that every nation in the UN must adhere to, last I recall. If I'm wrong, of course, I'd like to see how. Here is an explainer on refugee law from the International Justice Resource Center, which I think provides a pretty comprehensive overview of what rights asylum seekers and refugees have:

https://ijrcenter.org/refugee-law/#Who_Is_a_Refugee

Refugee and illegal immigrant is interchangeable. An unwanted migrant cannot be a refugee.

The acceptability of refugees depends on the host government and society. In Italy, that is clearly not the case, and hence refugees do not and can not exist. They're illegal immigrants trying to gain access to a country that 1) declares them as such 2) doesn't want them there.

An illegal immigrant would be a person who entered the country illegally, and did not state that they were a refugee as soon as they could. If they stay in the country, for say, a month and have made no effort to apply for refugee status and had no good reason not to apply, they're an illegal immigrant.

Of course a country has the ability to accept or deny refugees, however, the issue lies in the fact that from what I can recall, a government must allow the refugees to claim themselves as such and then review their case. I've yet to see the Italian government state that they will not take in refugees or stop reviewing them. The Italians don't want these people in their country, and that's their right to feel as such, but under international law, based on what I recall, they'd have to allow them to make their claim and then review it until they are either rejected refugee status or granted it. I assume the government, could take them in, "review" their cases, and then reject all of them. The Canadian government did a similar thing with the Black Dragon from what I remember.

Personally, I don't exactly care too much about the situation at hand or know much about it to talk about it at length. I was simply responding to someone who said that refugees are illegal because they don't go through the normal immigration process, which from everything I've learnt, is false. They said it was unfair in their opinion, and that's fine, but every country in the UN, last I recalled, must be fine with refugees entering the country illegally so long as they register as one as soon as possible.

[Alvecia]

And this is why everyone is desperately trying to avoid using the term to refer to them.

And is this also why liberals are desperately trying to avoid using the term 'refugee' on white Ukrainian refugees?

Doesn't fit the agenda

Ay lmao

Are we? I’m not up to date on the more recent amendments to the liberal agenda.

[Ifreann]

Cool. You're going to need to interview them all to determine where they came from. These are people who were rescued in the middle of the sea, they don't exactly have tickets listing the port they left from, and they may not even be citizens of whatever nation they did depart from.

And even if you could find out where the people you had rescued had left from, it would really not go down well for Italian coast guard vessels to be entering the territorial waters of other nations to drop rescued people off at their ports without asking permission first.

---

I would be willing to do that if the alternative is economic migrants coming in, because the idea that Europe should take care of every third world refugee is absolutely ridiculous.

So you do actually agree with what I initially said. That people rescued at sea should be taken to Italy(or whatever country rescues them) to be processed and have their legal status assessed. You just think that everyone's status should be assessed as "GTFO".

[Vassenor]

And is this also why liberals are desperately trying to avoid using the term 'refugee' on white Ukrainian refugees?

Doesn't fit the agenda

Ay lmao

Are we? I’m not up to date on the more recent amendments to the liberal agenda.

But it fits the narrative so it must be true.

[Reichsstaaten von Germania]

Are we? I’m not up to date on the more recent amendments to the liberal agenda.

But it fits the narrative so it must be true.

It is true, Ukrainians should be refugees

[Vassenor]

But it fits the narrative so it must be true.

It is true, Ukrainians should be refugees

So who is saying otherwise?

[Reichsstaaten von Germania]

It is true, Ukrainians should be refugees

So who is saying otherwise?

Barely anyone talks about them however, it’s all about the Middle Easterners

[Alvecia]

So who is saying otherwise?

Barely anyone talks about them however, it’s all about the Middle Easterners

We’re talking about them now.

[Ifreann]

So who is saying otherwise?

Barely anyone talks about them however, it’s all about the Middle Easterners

Why would we be talking about Ukrainians in this thread about Matteo Salvini?

[Reichsstaaten von Germania]

Barely anyone talks about them however, it’s all about the Middle Easterners

Why would we be talking about Ukrainians in this thread about Matteo Salvini?

In general no one does