Hungary's new huge birth rate subsidies

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Birthrates can't increase forever. Economic pressures against them, if they don't come from the financial price tag of having kids, will come from the environmental devastation that results from a high human population. Pro-natalists promised that having kids would motivate people to care about the environment, and yet, thus far, it has failed to do so.

If the birthrate is going to decline, NOW is the best timing for it to do so. BEFORE the sea levels rise. BEFORE the particulates get more and more concentrated.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

This is to be applauded in my view, but I suspect that it could be even more effective if abortion were to be made illegal and all if not more contraceptives were banished from the country on a temporary basis.

If one got pregnant before one could afford kids and were somehow prevented from getting a back-alley abortion, one might have 1 child, but would be too embittered to have a 2nd one. And that child might not want any children of his or her own after the resulting upbringing.

If one got pregnant AFTER one could afford kids, one might have multiple children.

[Novus America]

Birthrates can't increase forever. Economic pressures against them, if they don't come from the financial price tag of having kids, will come from the environmental devastation that results from a high human population. Pro-natalists promised that having kids would motivate people to care about the environment, and yet, thus far, it has failed to do so.

If the birthrate is going to decline, NOW is the best timing for it to do so. BEFORE the sea levels rise. BEFORE the particulates get more and more concentrated.

The birthrate will still continue to rapidly decline worldwide even if a few countries with the lowest rate increase theirs slightly.

Countries with the lowest birth rates having pro natal policies will not stop global birthrates falling.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Denmark runs "sexy" advertisements offering subsidized vacations for couples to romantic places (e.g. Paris) for the explicit purpose that they have will be having sex there and hopefully getting pregnant.

It never fails. The best countries in the world are always the least patriotic.

Paris is NOT more romantic than Copenhagen. It is filled with trash. And in the heat of a Parisian summer, you probably wouldn't have the energy to bone anyway.

Also, the French are flat-chested compared to Danes anyway. That's not speculation, that is verifiable fact.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Birthrates can't increase forever. Economic pressures against them, if they don't come from the financial price tag of having kids, will come from the environmental devastation that results from a high human population. Pro-natalists promised that having kids would motivate people to care about the environment, and yet, thus far, it has failed to do so.

If the birthrate is going to decline, NOW is the best timing for it to do so. BEFORE the sea levels rise. BEFORE the particulates get more and more concentrated.

The birthrate will still continue to rapidly decline worldwide even if a few countries with the lowest rate increase theirs slightly.

Countries with the lowest birth rates having pro natal policies will not stop global birthrates falling.

So are you saying this to call Hungary's policies a good thing, or to say they do not matter one way or the other?

[Novus America]

The birthrate will still continue to rapidly decline worldwide even if a few countries with the lowest rate increase theirs slightly.

Countries with the lowest birth rates having pro natal policies will not stop global birthrates falling.

So are you saying this to call Hungary's policies a good thing, or to say they do not matter one way or the other?

They matter to Hungary, not the entire world.
If Hungary say increased its birth rate from 1.4 to 1.8 that would make a major difference to Hungary.
The impact on the global birth rate would however be statistically insignificant.

And yes I think it is a good thing. I want moderate birthrates, neither too high nor too low.
Countries with too high birth rates should decrease theirs, too low increase theirs.

There is no one size fits all global solution.

[Ifreann]

George Soros apparently has five children.

I don't think Soros has Hungarian citizenship. He was born prior to Hungary signing UN stateless convention treaties. I did find an article from 2003 claiming he got honorary citizenship though.

He was born in Budapest to Hungarian parents. Well-off Hungarian parents, apparently, who were keeping the Jewishness on the DL even before the Nazis showed up. I can't imagine why he wouldn't have Hungarian citizenship.

Regardless, it's an amusing thought. Orbán's no fan of ol' George, it's very funny to imagine him having to buy Soros a people-carrier and give back a few decades of income taxes.

[Sirocca]

We don't have the resources. Currently we're using 125% of the Earth's capacity. Adding more people is not a good idea.

We do have the resources, we just need to use them better.
Besides underpopulation, not over population is the threat the West is phasing.
Our countries are dying out.

Maybe you do not care if the West ceases to exist because nobody is left.
But most people do.

Besides a small birthrate increase in a few Western countries will not offset the collapse of East Asia anyways.

Besides these policies still will not bring our birth rates above replacement, simply slow the rate of decline a little.

Maybe for the original or more "native" Caucasian European ethnic descendants, I agree about Western countries. The blacks and Hispanics residing in those countries don't have more to fear from their perspective.

[Liriena]

Subsidies won't stop the great replacement, buckos!

[Novus America]

We do have the resources, we just need to use them better.
Besides underpopulation, not over population is the threat the West is phasing.
Our countries are dying out.

Maybe you do not care if the West ceases to exist because nobody is left.
But most people do.

Besides a small birthrate increase in a few Western countries will not offset the collapse of East Asia anyways.

Besides these policies still will not bring our birth rates above replacement, simply slow the rate of decline a little.

Maybe for the original or more "native" Caucasian European ethnic descendants, I agree about Western countries. The blacks and Hispanics residing in those countries don't have more to fear from their perspective.

Blacks and Hispanics in the US (and no doubt in other Western countries) also have sub replacements (and rapidly falling, falling faster than white) birthrates.
https://ifstudies.org/blog/baby-bust-fe ... rity-women

So yeah.
Also it is super white Utah, South Dakota and Amish country that have the highest (and above replacement) birthrates...

Actually it is Asians most in need of increased fertility as well...

[Novus America]

Subsidies won't stop the great replacement, buckos!

I am not worried about “replacement”, I am worried about nobody left at all.
The rapid fall in birthrates is not exclusive to “whites”.

[Shofercia]

Hungary today announced the most extreme natalist policies ever seen by any national government suffering a decline in birth rates and a demographic crisis.

The move was a surprise and no such policies were hinted beforehand, nor were they predicted because Orban already won an election in April last year and doesn't have any need for electioneering, especially with election four years away and his party sitting at just under 60% in opinion polls.

Regardless, Viktor Orban's government today saw "a pressing need" to 'ensure the survival of the Hungarian people and nation' and announced new initiatives to raise the birth rates as soon as possible. Among others, these notably include:

1) A government subsidy of $9030 US dollars towards a seven-seater car for new mothers giving birth to their fourth child (56% of Hungarian GDP per capita, 59% of Hungarian average wage and 143% of Hungarian minimum wage)

2) A lifetime (and backdated) income tax exemption for families with four or more children. This is regardless of income, and includes millionaires et al.

3) Interest-free 10 year loans of 10 million forint (27k GBP, 36k USD) for newly married 21-35 year olds, which will be entirely forgiven if the family has three children.

Obviously (/presumably) 2 will no longer apply once birth rates are at higher levels, as it is impossible to imagine Hungary could operate with a 'lifetime' tax exemption once all middle class and up families have their fourth child.

The incentives will not be available for non-Hungarian citizens, and Hungary also plans to make the application process for naturalisation more stringent so that immigrants do not abuse the system.

---

Other governments have used similar incentives to raise birth rates. It can be argued that UK Child Benefits and US Child Tax Credits are a form of such, however, they are more of a discount for having a child rather than a literal incentive, because it still costs more to raise a child than the government rewards you for having one.

The most notable incentives have come from Japan (where it has worked, but not as far as hoped), Russia (where it has definitely worked) and Poland (where it is recent but signs are it's working).

I won't attempt to explain Japanese tax and spend incentives for having children because Japan is notoriously bureaucratic, but more or less Japan is noteworthy for giving a blank child benefit of 235 dollars per child per month to all parents. The Japanese fertility rate reached a record low of 1.26 in 2005, and today increased to 1.44 (slightly down from 1.45 last year). Japan went from the lowest fertility rate in the world in 2005 to more or less the European average.

Russia has more extensive government help for children, including an entire national holiday to fertility 1 day in September (and Putin is not hiding what he wants adults to do on that day), lotteries for parents and a monthly child benefit. Russia's fertility rates have risen substantially - from the lowest peacetime fertility rate in the world of 1.17 in 1999, the year of Putin's rise to power, to 1.75 as of last year. In comparison the United States is now at 1.8, so Russia has risen a lot. It is now higher than all EU countries bar three.

Poland more recently under a conservative government have introduced large government subsidies of 500 PLN (101 GBP, 130 USD) per month, or just under 10% of the monthly average wage, for each family with two or more children where at least one adult works full-time, per child. So far there are signs it has risen from 1.4 to 1.5, but the policy is only in its third year.

Of course there is no guarantee that these subsidies and tax incentives are resulting in these rises in fertility rates, but given the general trend of comparable countries, it's really hard to not argue there is an outright correlation.

So far Hungary has a fertility rate of 1.4, the joint 3rd lowest in the world.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-hung ... SKCN1PZ0I0

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-47192612

Definitely a smart move by Orban. My only criticism is on a tactical level, rather than a strategic one - the subsidies should be tied closer to the kids, like giving the parents Hungary's yearly wage for every kid that they have, instead of a subsidy toward the seven seater car. The new couples loans are a great idea! Income tax forgiveness seems a tad too much, but if Hungary can afford it - why not? Obviously cutting down on gaming the system is good, but this is NSG, so I have to say it.

I agree with all of the examples you cited, but also keep in mind that the American Government doesn't want Americans having more kids, as the country goes into automation. Also:

Of course there is no guarantee that these subsidies and tax incentives are resulting in these rises in fertility rates, but given the general trend of comparable countries, it's really hard to not argue there is an outright correlation.

It's hard not to, but it's NSG, always up to the challenge

[Saiwania]

Blacks and Hispanics in the US (and no doubt in other Western countries) also have sub replacements (and rapidly falling, falling faster than white) birthrates.

This is what I've wanted to have happen for forever. Now if only the non-White immigration was closed off, the numbers would perhaps be more in line with what I want to be seeing.

[Novus America]

Blacks and Hispanics in the US (and no doubt in other Western countries) also have sub replacements (and rapidly falling, falling faster than white) birthrates.

This is what I've wanted to have happen for forever. Now if only the non-White immigration was closed off, the numbers would perhaps be more in line with what I want to be seeing.

Cutting off “non white” immigrantion would not help increase birthrates.
At all.
Getting birthrates near or above replacement would require raising non white birthrates as well.

[Shofercia]

Don’t all these “Fuck for the nation” things never end up working?

They're working in Russia and Poland, so why shouldn't they work in Hungary?

If whites were to carve up an white ethnostate from the former USA, than it should adopt this policies. Giving money to native woman to encourage to have as more kids as possible is far more better than giving welfare to new coming immigrants.

The US Political Class is against it. Democrats are openly against it, and Republicans pay mere lip service to it.

Yeah I don't see how subsidizing cars and loan forgiveness won't cause anything bad. Nope.

The way Orban, (or whoever actually wrote the law,) set up loan forgiveness makes a ton of sense. Also, Japan subsidized cars, and were successful at it.

Hungary and Europe need to grow their own traditional native ethnic population groups.

*"want", not "need".

If they want to maintain their Standard of Living, they need to do it.

Definitely a good thing. Should be implemented in other low-fertility countries as well, like Germany, and enhanced in places like Japan. A strong core birth rate is one of the pillars of an independent future.

The Japanese tried almost everything. How would you enhance it in Japan?

[Shofercia]

I'm just saying, the thread title sounds like the name for an explicit movie.

Are you hungry enough to have kids for Hungary? Would certain car subsidies help? You can loan it up now, and ask for forgiveness later.

I don't think Soros has Hungarian citizenship. He was born prior to Hungary signing UN stateless convention treaties. I did find an article from 2003 claiming he got honorary citizenship though.

He was born in Budapest to Hungarian parents. Well-off Hungarian parents, apparently, who were keeping the Jewishness on the DL even before the Nazis showed up. I can't imagine why he wouldn't have Hungarian citizenship.

Regardless, it's an amusing thought. Orbán's no fan of ol' George, it's very funny to imagine him having to buy Soros a people-carrier and give back a few decades of income taxes.

You're assuming that Soros actually paid his income taxes in full.

Subsidies won't stop the great replacement, buckos!

I don't mind the Great Replacement, but I want Linguistic and Cultural Preservation, and these subsidies will aid that, at least in the case of Hungary.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Gotta
Get
Bangin

[Diopolis]

Don’t all these “Fuck for the nation” things never end up working?

They're working in Russia and Poland, so why shouldn't they work in Hungary?

If whites were to carve up an white ethnostate from the former USA, than it should adopt this policies. Giving money to native woman to encourage to have as more kids as possible is far more better than giving welfare to new coming immigrants.

The US Political Class is against it. Democrats are openly against it, and Republicans pay mere lip service to it.

Yeah I don't see how subsidizing cars and loan forgiveness won't cause anything bad. Nope.

The way Orban, (or whoever actually wrote the law,) set up loan forgiveness makes a ton of sense. Also, Japan subsidized cars, and were successful at it.

*"want", not "need".

If they want to maintain their Standard of Living, they need to do it.

Definitely a good thing. Should be implemented in other low-fertility countries as well, like Germany, and enhanced in places like Japan. A strong core birth rate is one of the pillars of an independent future.

The Japanese tried almost everything. How would you enhance it in Japan?

Subsidy for stay at home mothers. Generous subsidy.

[Page]

I really don't care in the least how many people in which country are procreating. Not in Europe, not in Japan, not anywhere. Some populations will increase, some will decline, either way it will all eventually stabilize. It's not as if entire countries are going to cease to exist for lack of procreation. There are economic consequences to a top-heavy society in which there are a good deal of old people out of the labor market and fewer young people working, but those consequences are not permanent. Eventually the larger older population will die.

However, I do sympathize for all the people who 20 or 30 years from now who will be sitting in a therapist's office working through their existential crisis that they only exist cause their parents wanted a new car.

By the way to clarify I'm not an anti-natalist per se, I don't think bringing a human into existence has an inherently negative or positive value, I think it has an unknown value. In any case the global population is steadily increasing regardless.

[Ostroeuropa]

It's good they're doing something but I suspect we'll instead need a radical re-imagining of society for things to work. It's entirely possible the nuclear family unit simply is not viable compared to an extended family.

I really don't care in the least how many people in which country are procreating. Not in Europe, not in Japan, not anywhere. Some populations will increase, some will decline, either way it will all eventually stabilize. It's not as if entire countries are going to cease to exist for lack of procreation. There are economic consequences to a top-heavy society in which there are a good deal of old people out of the labor market and fewer young people working, but those consequences are not permanent. Eventually the larger older population will die.

However, I do sympathize for all the people who 20 or 30 years from now who will be sitting in a therapist's office working through their existential crisis that they only exist cause their parents wanted a new car.

By the way to clarify I'm not an anti-natalist per se, I don't think bringing a human into existence has an inherently negative or positive value, I think it has an unknown value. In any case the global population is steadily increasing regardless.

Westerners have a moral duty to have their cultural discourse survive. We need to breed more, stop capitalism, stop bombing the shit out of the brown poors, and then export secularism, human rights, and so on, then maybe we can stop having kids if we feel like it. Otherwise it's Shariah/Chinese Authoritarianism all the way down.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Westerners have a moral duty to have their cultural discourse survive.

Hi, westerner speaking. I'm not feeling that duty.

We need to breed more, stop capitalism, stop bombing the s*it out of the brown poors

I only agree with the latter, the other 2 I'm neutral on.

and then export secularism, human rights, and so on

Oh, so you don't think western culture needs to survive, you think it should expand? Because this part in particular has nothing to do with "survival".

then maybe we can stop having kids if we feel like it. Otherwise it's Shariah/Chinese Authoritarianism all the way down.

I'd rather have Shari'ah over what the West has now.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Westerners have a moral duty to have their cultural discourse survive.

Hi, westerner speaking. I'm not feeling that duty.

We need to breed more, stop capitalism, stop bombing the s*it out of the brown poors

I only agree with the latter, the other 2 I'm neutral on.

and then export secularism, human rights, and so on

Oh, so you don't think western culture needs to survive, you think it should expand? Because this part in particular has nothing to do with "survival".

then maybe we can stop having kids if we feel like it. Otherwise it's Shariah/Chinese Authoritarianism all the way down.

I'd rather have Shari'ah over what the West has now.

Course you would.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

If they want to maintain their Standard of Living, they need to do it.

You don't necessarily "need" to keep the indigenous population above replacement to do that.

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Subsidies won't stop the great replacement, buckos!

Considering that birth rates are falling at lightning speed across the world, immigration ain’t gonna keep plugging the hole for much longer as emigrant countries also become starved out of manpower.

[Allemonde]

Didn't Romania try this with disastrous results, and why there's a large under 18 homeless population?