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Hungary's new huge birth rate subsidies

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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These policies...

Are good, I'd like them in my country
43
42%
Are good, but I don't think they will work as intended
23
22%
Are bad because they are a waste of money
13
13%
Are bad because we don't need more children and Hungary should adapt to fewer people
11
11%
Are bad because we don't need more children and Hungary should invite immigrants
13
13%
 
Total votes : 103

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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:47 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Shofercia wrote:If they want to maintain their Standard of Living, they need to do it.

You don't necessarily "need" to keep the indigenous population above replacement to do that.


Again, it's a Cultural issue. As a Russian in California, I get invited to parties with Russians in them, and some of those Russians are inevitably programmers, who complain about Indians not using basic hygiene, such as a deodorant. Others invent their own driving rules, and others fail to follow common sense courtesy customs, like not parking too close to the driveway, (Asians,) not holding parties past 10 pm every day during the work week (Latinos,) and so on. And it's not because they're bad people who want to harm their neighbors - it's what they were taught. The ones who are a minority in their communities adapt quickly, but if you're going to have a massive Latino community - why not party? Everyone does it!

Another thing I noticed is citizen engagement in politics - go to any city council meeting, and you will see a disproportionate amount of old white people. Most immigrants don't know that they have this power, and don't use it, and then special interest hire politicians to run for office, that are usually minorities, and corruption thrives; sometimes it results in white flight, although it can also be preceded by white flight. Some of the most corrupt cities are minority cities.

Then comes the linguistic aspect, which is more true in Europe than in the US. For a European, it's good to know five languages, but most immigrants hardly know more than three. While those numbers might be shocking for an American, the more languages you know, the better of a thinker you are, all else being equal. What about certain cultural aspects in schools? What about environmental preservation? Some immigrants are used to living in dirty slums, so they might not view a semi-clean street as an issue. Again, not out of malice - out of a lack of education. And Cultural Education takes time. That's why immigration should be restricted to a reasonable level, and why you need the natalist policies.
Last edited by Shofercia on Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Shofercia
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Founded: Feb 22, 2008
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:51 pm

Diopolis wrote:
Shofercia wrote:The Japanese tried almost everything. How would you enhance it in Japan?

Subsidy for stay at home mothers. Generous subsidy.


Tried it. That worked in rural areas, but not urban ones. Why do you think that is? The Rural Areas who tried it actually beat the fertility replacement rate.


El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Westerners have a moral duty to have their cultural discourse survive.

Hi, westerner speaking. I'm not feeling that duty.
Ostroeuropa wrote:We need to breed more, stop capitalism, stop bombing the s*it out of the brown poors

I only agree with the latter, the other 2 I'm neutral on.
Ostroeuropa wrote:and then export secularism, human rights, and so on

Oh, so you don't think western culture needs to survive, you think it should expand? Because this part in particular has nothing to do with "survival".
Ostroeuropa wrote:then maybe we can stop having kids if we feel like it. Otherwise it's Shariah/Chinese Authoritarianism all the way down.

I'd rather have Shari'ah over what the West has now.


A Westerner who'd rather have Shari'ah Law? That's new. Cultures either expand or contract. Good news is that a person can be multi-cultural, so cultural expansion doesn't mean the elimination of local cultures; it's not a zero sum game.
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Costa Fierro
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Ex-Nation

Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:32 pm

Novus America wrote:We are talking entire countries disappearing.


No we are not. Stop being alarmist.

Which your misanthropic arguments support but not everyone hates humans to the same degree.


It's not a misanthropic argument to suggest humanity needs a population reduction. It is not misanthropic to point out that we are beyond the carrying capacity of the planet.

When you can never retire, and face ever increasing taxes as you work to death at 80 with no puplic services maybe you will think differently.


Most of us won't ever retire regardless, not because there's not enough money to fund us, but because we ourselves have been unable to effectively acquire enough money in our working lives to be able to live comfortable in retirement. More to the point, we will be living longer than our parents did.
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Costa Fierro
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Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:38 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:We need to breed more


No we don't. End of.
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Confederate States of German America
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Ex-Nation

Postby Confederate States of German America » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:56 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:We need to breed more


No we don't. End of.


Beyond false to the point of being absurd.
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Novus America
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Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:35 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Novus America wrote:We are talking entire countries disappearing.


No we are not. Stop being alarmist.

Which your misanthropic arguments support but not everyone hates humans to the same degree.


It's not a misanthropic argument to suggest humanity needs a population reduction. It is not misanthropic to point out that we are beyond the carrying capacity of the planet.

When you can never retire, and face ever increasing taxes as you work to death at 80 with no puplic services maybe you will think differently.


Most of us won't ever retire regardless, not because there's not enough money to fund us, but because we ourselves have been unable to effectively acquire enough money in our working lives to be able to live comfortable in retirement. More to the point, we will be living longer than our parents did.


Actually this is not being alarmist.
The demographic crisis is beyond catastrophic in places.

A reduction in humanity will still happen. We are talking about slowing the reduction in certain places, not stopping it globally.

Besides the actual carrying capacity if the earth is greatly disputed.
Plus we can improve things without a population reduction.

And the demographic crisis absolutely will makes things worse for us as we get older.
This is a fact.
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Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Costa Fierro
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Ex-Nation

Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:36 pm

Confederate States of German America wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
No we don't. End of.


Beyond false to the point of being absurd.


It's not. There's too many people here already. Adding more is only going to make things worse.
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Kowani
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:51 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Confederate States of German America wrote:
Beyond false to the point of being absurd.


It's not. There's too many people here already. Adding more is only going to make things worse.

How are we all bring some reputable sources (who aren’t fucking Malthus), so we can stop yelling “yes/no?”
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Costa Fierro
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Ex-Nation

Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:02 pm

Novus America wrote:Actually this is not being alarmist.


It is being alarmist. Whole nations are not going to disappear.

The demographic crisis is beyond catastrophic in places.


It's "catastrophic" from the point of view that wishes to maintain perpetual population growth. There are no places where perpetual population growth would be beneficial. There would be places where a temporary reduction in the population would be beneficial.

Humanity has bounced back from worse crises in the past.

A reduction in humanity will still happen. We are talking about slowing the reduction in certain places, not stopping it globally.


It's not a global reduction, it's a reduction in wealthy countries. Fertility is correlated with wealth.

Besides the actual carrying capacity if the earth is greatly disputed.


It isn't.

Plus we can improve things without a population reduction.


It cannot.
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United Muscovite Nations
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Ex-Nation

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:04 pm

Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
Christ Triumphant wrote:Denmark runs "sexy" advertisements offering subsidized vacations for couples to romantic places (e.g. Paris) for the explicit purpose that they have will be having sex there and hopefully getting pregnant.


I don’t exactly need a romantic vacation to bonk my theoretical female partner into pregnancy.

If your partner is purely theoretical, you won't be 'bonking' anyone.
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Novus America
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Ex-Nation

Postby Novus America » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:20 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Novus America wrote:Actually this is not being alarmist.


It is being alarmist. Whole nations are not going to disappear.

The demographic crisis is beyond catastrophic in places.


It's "catastrophic" from the point of view that wishes to maintain perpetual population growth. There are no places where perpetual population growth would be beneficial. There would be places where a temporary reduction in the population would be beneficial.

Humanity has bounced back from worse crises in the past.

A reduction in humanity will still happen. We are talking about slowing the reduction in certain places, not stopping it globally.


It's not a global reduction, it's a reduction in wealthy countries. Fertility is correlated with wealth.

Besides the actual carrying capacity if the earth is greatly disputed.


It isn't.

Plus we can improve things without a population reduction.


It cannot.


Actually the correlation between wealth and birthrate are far from absolute, and often extremely inconsistent and in many cases it is simply does not exist.

Actually the US and France have a much higher birth rate than Eastern Europe and China despite being much wealthier.

And the US and France have a higher birthrate than even Brazil and much higher than Thailand!

Actually India is not much above replacement and falling fast.
Much of South America is below replacement.
So the wealthy countries only is garbage.

Many other factors go into birthrate besides wealth.

Many countries will get old long before they get rich.

And yes, there is no exact way to calculate our exact carrying capacity and there certainly are many other ways to reduce our impact.

And we are not talking about a “temporary decrease in certain places”!

We are talking about Japan losing a third of its population by 2100 for example.

Certainly some countries still need a decrease. This does not mean all countries need a massive decrease.

And we are not discussing increasing the global birthrate, we are simply discussing slowing the decrease in certain places.

You are completely unaware of what is actually going on.
So your whole “we have been through worse so we do not need to worry about this” is wrong on multiple levels.
Last edited by Novus America on Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:15 pm, edited 5 times in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. I support what is good for the country, which means I cannot support either party.

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Shofercia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Shofercia » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:24 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Western Vale Confederacy wrote:
I don’t exactly need a romantic vacation to bonk my theoretical female partner into pregnancy.

If your partner is purely theoretical, you won't be 'bonking' anyone.


It's always nice when our fellow NSGers share their experience with us :lol2:
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:34 pm

Hungary: We need more citizens.
Me: That's great!
Hungary: We're gonna restrict immigration.
Me: Why...?
Hungary: So that they don't abuse our "Get Pregs Plez" program. Money is tight you know.
Me: So then why not do the opposite?
Hungary: What do you mean?
Me: Loosening up restrictions on immigration is essentially free.
Hungary: ... are you an idiot?
Me: I guess....


EDIT: And for those that say Hungary isn't attractive enough to get immigrants without incentives, lemme just suggest that they get a marketer who knows his or her stuff. They can get the job done.
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Last edited by VoVoDoCo on Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:43 pm

Also, for those of us who turned to the carrying capacity of the planet as the angle they've chosen to hit from, just a reminder that a growing field of thought suggests that the population in 2100 could be the exact same as it is now. Birth rates are more highly correlated with education than anything else, and education around the planet is quickly improving.


"Models that take education into account produce wildly different projections. Mr Lutz and his team have produced a range. If progress in education and other social indicators stalls, the global population will be 12bn by 2100. If current progress continues, it will peak at 9.4bn in 2075 and then fall to 8.9bn by 2100. If progress is a bit brisker, the world’s population will peak at around 9bn and decline back to 7bn—today’s level—by 2100 (see chart 2). These estimates are based on three scenarios devised by climate-change wonks. Both the medium and optimistic ones are significantly lower than the un’s 95% confidence range. To assess whether this is plausible, it is important to understand why some women have lots of children and others very few. A good way to start is to ask them..."



https://www.economist.com/international ... n-expected
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Zordennox
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Zordennox » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:45 pm

I support these new policies on account of them increasing the native Hungarian population. Migration in these troubling times would amount to total racial suicide. Unless you want Hungary to be African and Syrian, you should encourage these policies.
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VoVoDoCo
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Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:46 pm

Zordennox wrote:I support these new policies on account of them increasing the native Hungarian population. Migration in these troubling times would amount to total racial suicide. Unless you want Hungary to be African and Syrian, you should encourage these policies.

I don't give a shit if they become African or Syrian.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:41 pm

VoVoDoCo wrote:
Zordennox wrote:I support these new policies on account of them increasing the native Hungarian population. Migration in these troubling times would amount to total racial suicide. Unless you want Hungary to be African and Syrian, you should encourage these policies.

I don't give a sh*t if they become African or Syrian.

I was gonna say something similar.
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Confederate States of German America
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Postby Confederate States of German America » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:05 pm

Costa Fierro wrote:
Confederate States of German America wrote:
Beyond false to the point of being absurd.


It's not. There's too many people here already. Adding more is only going to make things worse.


Only if you don't understand basic demographic math and economics.
I'm literally OEP. Still a National Syndicalist.

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I just wanna do the dash, put my pedal to the gas
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Major-Tom
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Postby Major-Tom » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:29 pm

Costly. That's the only way to summarize this. Politically, it's a brilliant move, Orban has selfishly tapped into nativist sentiments, further stirring that pot during his tenure. He recognizes that denigrating foreigners works, though, of course, Hungary is still a largely homogeneous nation, particularly ethnically.

What could come back to bite him in the ass, and his entire party, is when people are enthused by these subsidies, running funds in a plethora of areas completely dry. Interest free loans amounting in the tens of thousands of dollars, per one interested family? In a country of millions?

From a fiscal standpoint, that's lunacy, makes AOC look like Paul Ryan.
Last edited by Major-Tom on Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:30 pm

Shofercia wrote:
Ifreann wrote:He was born in Budapest to Hungarian parents. Well-off Hungarian parents, apparently, who were keeping the Jewishness on the DL even before the Nazis showed up. I can't imagine why he wouldn't have Hungarian citizenship.

Regardless, it's an amusing thought. Orbán's no fan of ol' George, it's very funny to imagine him having to buy Soros a people-carrier and give back a few decades of income taxes.


You're assuming that Soros actually paid his income taxes in full.

I'm sure he paid the least amount he could get away with.
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Ex-Nation

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:56 pm

Novus America wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
No we are not. Stop being alarmist.



It's not a misanthropic argument to suggest humanity needs a population reduction. It is not misanthropic to point out that we are beyond the carrying capacity of the planet.



Most of us won't ever retire regardless, not because there's not enough money to fund us, but because we ourselves have been unable to effectively acquire enough money in our working lives to be able to live comfortable in retirement. More to the point, we will be living longer than our parents did.


Actually this is not being alarmist.
The demographic crisis is beyond catastrophic in places.

A reduction in humanity will still happen. We are talking about slowing the reduction in certain places, not stopping it globally.

Besides the actual carrying capacity if the earth is greatly disputed.
Plus we can improve things without a population reduction.

And the demographic crisis absolutely will makes things worse for us as we get older.
This is a fact.

Well, maybe the baby boomers should've thought of that before having more kids than the environment could afford. THEY made this mess, THEY should have to deal with the consequences.
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Costa Fierro
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Ex-Nation

Postby Costa Fierro » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:00 pm

Confederate States of German America wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
It's not. There's too many people here already. Adding more is only going to make things worse.


Only if you don't understand basic demographic math and economics.


It is going to make things worse.

Novus America wrote:Actually the correlation between wealth and birthrate are far from absolute, and often extremely inconsistent and in many cases it is simply does not exist.

Actually the US and France have a much higher birth rate than Eastern Europe and China despite being much wealthier.

And the US and France have a higher birthrate than even Brazil and much higher than Thailand!

Actually India is not much above replacement and falling fast.
Much of South America is below replacement.
So the wealthy countries only is garbage.

Many other factors go into birthrate besides wealth.

Many countries will get old long before they get rich.

And yes, there is no exact way to calculate our exact carrying capacity and there certainly are many other ways to reduce our impact.

And we are not talking about a “temporary decrease in certain places”!

We are talking about Japan losing a third of its population by 2100 for example.

Certainly some countries still need a decrease. This does not mean all countries need a massive decrease.

And we are not discussing increasing the global birthrate, we are simply discussing slowing the decrease in certain places.

You are completely unaware of what is actually going on.
So your whole “we have been through worse so we do not need to worry about this” is wrong on multiple levels.


All of these are untrue.
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Zordennox
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Founded: Sep 01, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Zordennox » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:05 pm

VoVoDoCo wrote:
Zordennox wrote:I support these new policies on account of them increasing the native Hungarian population. Migration in these troubling times would amount to total racial suicide. Unless you want Hungary to be African and Syrian, you should encourage these policies.

I don't give a shit if they become African or Syrian.


That's quite troubling. Genocide isn't ethical and it never will be.
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VoVoDoCo
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Ex-Nation

Postby VoVoDoCo » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:08 pm

Zordennox wrote:
VoVoDoCo wrote:I don't give a shit if they become African or Syrian.


That's quite troubling. Genocide isn't ethical and it never will be.

That's not what genocide is.

Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

Nice strawman bruh
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Zordennox
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Founded: Sep 01, 2018
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Zordennox » Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:11 pm

VoVoDoCo wrote:
Zordennox wrote:
That's quite troubling. Genocide isn't ethical and it never will be.

That's not what genocide is.

Genocide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

Nice strawman bruh


If you don't care that the native population will be decimated, you're okay with genocide by the definition you've given.
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