NationStates

Vassenor wrote:

Unithonia wrote:If that's already the standard for the American education system, then y'all don't need to screw it up even more by focusing on identity politics. Sure, teach it. But don't make it a class. Otherwise, my ass is back off to Ireland for college.

Again with the buzzwords.

The term identity politics does have meaning. Pretending that you don't know what he is trying to convey or that it has no meaning doesn't help your argument.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
Again with the buzzwords.

The term identity politics does have meaning. Pretending that you don't know what he is trying to convey or that it has no meaning doesn't help your argument.

So how does "expecting people to think a certain way because of who they are" relate to what was said?

Vassenor wrote:

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:The term identity politics does have meaning. Pretending that you don't know what he is trying to convey or that it has no meaning doesn't help your argument.

So how does "expecting people to think a certain way because of who they are" relate to what was said?

Well, it's not what I said. Are you arguing in good faith or are you trying to strawman me?

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
So how does "expecting people to think a certain way because of who they are" relate to what was said?

Well, it's not what I said. Are you arguing in good faith or are you trying to strawman me?

It's what "identity politics" means. So how does that meaning, as you pointed out the existence of, relate to what he was trying to convey?

Vassenor wrote:

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Well, it's not what I said. Are you arguing in good faith or are you trying to strawman me?

It's what "identity politics" means. So how does that meaning, as you pointed out the existence of, relate to what he was trying to convey?

1. This is the definition I use: "a tendency for people of a particular religion, race, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics." I don't know where you've got your definition from.

This has everything to do with what he was trying to convey, as identity politics probably had a hand in adding LGBTQ studies into the curriculum. The main problem with that is that people can go overboard when it comes to ID politics. This has happened before with the privilege checking nonsense, and allies who are fanatically dedicated to the cause to the point of self-parody, and declaring non-bigoted things as bigoted. As a result, most forms of ID politics don't belong in our schools. Teach the LGBTQ history, sure, but significantly tone down the ID politics as the overwhelming majority of it is now nonsense, primarily due to activists taking it way too far.

Example of ID politics being taken too far:
https://nypost.com/2016/07/01/elite-k-8 ... rn-racist/

Good on New Jersey, they're trying to be progressive hopefully everything turns out alright.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
It's what "identity politics" means. So how does that meaning, as you pointed out the existence of, relate to what he was trying to convey?

1. This is the definition I use: "a tendency for people of a particular religion, race, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics."

This has everything to do with what he was trying to convey, as identity politics probably had a hand in adding LGBTQ studies into the curriculum. The main problem with that is that people can go overboard when it comes to ID politics. This has happened before with the privilege checking nonsense, and allies who are fanatically dedicated to the cause to the point of self-parody, and declaring non-bigoted things as bigoted. As a result, most forms of ID politics don't belong in our schools. Teach the LGBTQ history, sure, but tone down the ID politics as much of it is nonsense.

Example of ID politics being taken too far:
https://nypost.com/2016/07/01/elite-k-8 ... rn-racist/

Gentle reminder that the NY Post is essentially just a tabloid and tabloids aren't good news sources because their whole gimmick is to get their readers attention with catchy headlines then spin a story to a certain angle to ensure their readers stay sensational throughout the whole experience of the tabloid. They're the things you see in the impulse buy section of the grocery store with headlines like "QUEEN ELIZABETH SAYS MEGAN MARKLE IS TWO INCHES TOO SHORT FOR ROYAL FAMILY" or "SEVEN AND A HALF THINGS BETTY WHITE WANTS YOU TO KNOW." Then the articles are just filled with fluff.

The problem with the this kind of media isn't that they make stuff up, it's that they spin things to an insanely ridiculous level. Any nuance is lost as the potential problems are exaggerated and actual intent downplayed. A history class is either glorification of imperialism and genocide or teaching kids to hate themselves and America depending on how the author wants to write it.

Unithonia wrote:

Alvecia wrote:Supposing it is, and?

If that's already the standard for the American education system, then y'all don't need to screw it up even more by focusing on identity politics. Sure, teach it. But don't make it a class. Otherwise, my ass is back off to Ireland for college.

Bad idea, we're really not a more conservative country than America.

Ifreann wrote:

Unithonia wrote:If that's already the standard for the American education system, then y'all don't need to screw it up even more by focusing on identity politics. Sure, teach it. But don't make it a class. Otherwise, my ass is back off to Ireland for college.

Bad idea, we're really not a more conservative country than America.

You're right. He'll encounter more identity politics in Ireland than over here in America.

Also, it's absurd to object to having an LGBT history class, but not to object to the exact same content being taught in other classes.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Ifreann wrote:Bad idea, we're really not a more conservative country than America.

You're right. He'll encounter more identity politics in Ireland than over here in America.

Irish people are currently spray-painting pro-trans graffiti tags on the property of our national broadcaster to object to them platforming a TERF. I expect every Students Union in the country has an LGBT Officer. The leader of our country is a gay Indian.

I think Unithonia would be happier staying in America.

Hediacrana wrote:

Kannap wrote:Nah, as always Christians get a free pass on continuing to be bigots.

Not from me. As a trans Christian, it is a bit of a pet peeve of mine when that happens and goes unchallenged.

In NSG, it seems to be something like a natural law that, when LGBTQ+ rights are discussed, the probability of some self-professed Christian hiding behind "because my religion tells me so" to defend LGBTQ+ oppression approaches One really soon; and that more often than not, this happens without any apparent awareness that many LGBTQ+ people of faith exist (including on this forum), that lots of LGBTQ+ affirming denominations and congregations exist, or that queer theology has been around for decades already.

In my view, following Jesus does not commit one to sexist, homophobic or transphobic prejudice; rather, it commits one to do good, to seek justice, and to correct oppression. In the case of the NJ idea, I'd say that means considering how learning about LGBTQ+ rights might make life better for LGBTQ+ students, whose school life all too often is short and miserable precisely because the kind of prejudice that some, but far from all, Christians defend with an appeal to religion.

Jesus was a first century jew, he was in no way going to be "yay the gay". Now if he were here now I firmly believe he would have a tastefully yet modestly furnished apt. In the west village and host a LGBTQIA shabbat dinners every Friday night, but he would minister to you as he would any other sinner, telling you to put your faith in god.

Kannap wrote:The problem with the this kind of media isn't that they make stuff up, it's that they spin things to an insanely ridiculous level. Any nuance is lost as the potential problems are exaggerated and actual intent downplayed. A history class is either glorification of imperialism and genocide or teaching kids to hate themselves and America depending on how the author wants to write it.

You're right. Here's a far superior example from a far superior source of ID politics taken too far.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/edu ... 73695c7814

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Kannap wrote:The problem with the this kind of media isn't that they make stuff up, it's that they spin things to an insanely ridiculous level. Any nuance is lost as the potential problems are exaggerated and actual intent downplayed. A history class is either glorification of imperialism and genocide or teaching kids to hate themselves and America depending on how the author wants to write it.

You're right. Here's a far superior example from a far superior source of ID politics taken too far.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/edu ... 73695c7814

So because of these two single examples we should gloss over the marginalisation of the LGBT community in schools?

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Kannap wrote:The problem with the this kind of media isn't that they make stuff up, it's that they spin things to an insanely ridiculous level. Any nuance is lost as the potential problems are exaggerated and actual intent downplayed. A history class is either glorification of imperialism and genocide or teaching kids to hate themselves and America depending on how the author wants to write it.

You're right. Here's a far superior example from a far superior source of ID politics taken too far.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/edu ... 73695c7814

You defined "identity politics" as, and I quote, a tendency for people of a particular religion, race, social background, etc., to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics.

But your example of identity politics gone too far is a high school teacher telling his class that to be white is to be racist. Which has nothing to do with forming exclusive political alliances.

Either you've defined your term wrong or you're using it wrong.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Kannap wrote:The problem with the this kind of media isn't that they make stuff up, it's that they spin things to an insanely ridiculous level. Any nuance is lost as the potential problems are exaggerated and actual intent downplayed. A history class is either glorification of imperialism and genocide or teaching kids to hate themselves and America depending on how the author wants to write it.

You're right. Here's a far superior example from a far superior source of ID politics taken too far.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/edu ... 73695c7814

Unrelated to LGBT history in schools, but I'll remind you Europeans colonized the world and absolutely treated the world like shit and treated other peoples as inferior and led a massive global genocide of native persons. While the teacher in question went at the topic in an awful way, the school system acknowledged that and handled the situation effectively acknowledging that both history and the racial divide are important topics to be discussed but the teacher went about it the wrong way.

That being said, lets return to the topic of this thread: LGBT history being taught in schools.

Vassenor wrote:

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:You're right. Here's a far superior example from a far superior source of ID politics taken too far.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/edu ... 73695c7814

So because of these two single examples we should gloss over the marginalisation of the LGBT community in schools?

I never said that we should gloss over it. I'm simply stating that you shouldn't go overboard and make blanket statements that everyone or almost everyone is a bigot, or that anyone who disagrees with a certain political ideology is bigoted by definition.

This isn't real history in my opinion. There is no need to elevate LGBT as being anything special. So their rights to be "different from the norm" weren't always respected by society, a lot of people to this day are going to think "big deal" about that. A lot of people in the present, still object to LGBT being out of the closet.

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

Vassenor wrote:
So because of these two single examples we should gloss over the marginalisation of the LGBT community in schools?

I never said that we should gloss over it. I'm simply stating that you shouldn't go overboard and make blanket statements that everyone or almost everyone is a bigot, or that anyone who disagrees with a certain political ideology is bigoted by definition.

How does teaching LGBT history make blanket statements that everyone is a bigot? That is the point of this little derail into "identity politics", yes?

Saiwania wrote:This isn't real history in my opinion. There is no need to elevate LGBT as being anything special. So their rights to be "different from the norm" weren't always respected by society, a lot of people to this day are going to think "big deal" about that. A lot of people in the present, still object to LGBT being out of the closet.

So we should whitewash historical oppression for the sake of their precious little fee-fees?

Saiwania wrote:This isn't real history in my opinion. There is no need to elevate LGBT as being anything special. So their rights to be "different from the norm" weren't always respected by society, a lot of people to this day are going to think "big deal" about that. A lot of people in the present, still object to LGBT being out of the closet.

We shouldn't tell anyone anything about historical figures. Maybe just a randomly asigned numerical code if you're lucky.

Or, we could make every text book an ad-lib.

I will not be the one which purges this sick brainwashers of the world but i am tired of being shocked by their attempts to brainwash young people be sure if someone exterminates all your brainwashers degeneracy i will watch him/her/... while eating popcorns instead of defending you. I normally respect the sexual desires and acts of other people without saying nothing, but when you instruct the children in your sex variety you go for the limit
When you start brainwashing the childs to follow your degeneracy called free sex values we have a problem, we had tosuffer brainwashing of sects, ideologies, churches which only wanted power instead of improving the humanity and now this...

At your level of impurity you are no more worth than savage animals for the average right wing person , of course you can live as you want having sex bla, bla... but never expect real tolerance for the right wing conservative people we can and will continue smiling to you and saying is fine we respect.... We can say we tolerate you in the real world but you must know we will never do in our internal feelings, of course we the right wing excepting the brainless radicals will never say this hidden disrespect in public much less when in minority we are not brainless, we will wait until your degeneracy generates problems and you start to force us to adopt your ''sex identities''.
I do not hate you i only see souls mixing and spirit degeneration in your practice.

I do not know who is the dark hand behind your movement but i am sure it wants to experiment with your sexual freedom to see deep you can carry it or to gain something probably demons or an entity which want fun of you. Congratulations you invented a lot of weird sex feelings which noone had like trigender and gender void. You one day without surprising me will invent the mantis sex identity and will start to cut off your companion heads with the teeths and worse identities.

Never forget Stalin, Fidel Castro, Che guevara and many of your 'revolutionary heroes' had a worse opinion in this matter than me. Stalin directly killed you, fidel and the other carried you to concentration camps to be trained in the military to become 'men'. We the conservative people will not do any hurt on you until you start to impose your gender indentities in ourselves after few decades of young brainwashing. Then we will force you to stop or else.

And this is not hate speech is the expression of my lack of empathy or simpathies for the LGTB+ members and my lack of aproval to you.
You are not different in your fake tolerance than the catholic church, the islamist and the soviet propaganda you say you respect all people and are tolerant... yeah right until you become majority or someone in not satified with your belief then you will start to terrorize the ''homofobic'' like the nazism did to all of your colectives or something even most barbaric than them.

Awaiting your reports for supposed hate speech ideological opposition and contrarevolutionary, maybe my opinion on the matter end considered as flaming i want to see the number of reports you will put to censore my opinion

Saiwania wrote:This isn't real history in my opinion. There is no need to elevate LGBT as being anything special. So their rights to be "different from the norm" weren't always respected by society, a lot of people to this day are going to think "big deal" about that. A lot of people in the present, still object to LGBT being out of the closet.

And they're allowed to keep whining their little socks off, how does that de-legitimise LGBT history in any way?

Blueflarst wrote:I will not be the one which purges this sick brainwashers of the world but i am tired of being shocked by their attempts to brainwash young people be sure if someone exterminates all your brainwashers degeneracy i will watch him/her/... while eating popcorns instead of defending you. I normally respect the sexual desires and acts of other people without saying nothing, but when you instruct the children in your sex variety you go for the limit
When you start brainwashing the childs to follow your degeneracy called free sex values we have a problem, we had tosuffer brainwashing of sects, ideologies, churches which only wanted power instead of improving the humanity and now this...

At your level of impurity you are no more worth than savage animals for the average right wing person , of course you can live as you want having sex bla, bla... but never expect real tolerance for the right wing conservative people we can and will continue smiling to you and saying is fine we respect.... We can say we tolerate you in the real world but you must know we will never do in our internal feelings, of course we the right wing excepting the brainless radicals will never say this hidden disrespect in public much less when in minority we are not brainless, we will wait until your degeneracy generates problems and you start to force us to adopt your ''sex identities''.
I do not hate you i only see souls mixing and spirit degeneration in your practice.

I do not know who is the dark hand behind your movement but i am sure it wants to experiment with your sexual freedom to see deep you can carry it or to gain something probably demons or an entity which want fun of you. Congratulations you invented a lot of weird sex feelings which noone had like trigender and gender void. You one day without surprising me will invent the mantis sex identity and will start to cut off your companion heads with the teeths and worse identities.

Never forget Stalin, Fidel Castro, Che guevara and many of your 'revolutionary heroes' had a worse opinion in this matter than me. Stalin directly killed you, fidel and the other carried you to concentration camps to be trained in the military to become 'men'. We the conservative people will not do any hurt on you until you start to impose your gender indentities in ourselves after few decades of young brainwashing. Then we will force you to stop or else.

And this is not hate speech is the expression of my lack of empathy or simpathies for the LGTB+ members and my lack of aproval to you.
You are not different in your fake tolerance than the catholic church, the islamist and the soviet propaganda you say you respect all people and are tolerant... yeah right until you become majority or someone in not satified with your belief then you will start to terrorize the ''homofobic'' like the nazism did to all of your colectives or something even most barbaric than them.

Awaiting your reports for supposed hate speech ideological opposition and contrarevolutionary, maybe my opinion on the matter end considered as flaming i want to see the number of reports you will put to censore my opinion

...Well that was a thing. Anyone got a tl;dr?

Vassenor wrote:

Blueflarst wrote:I will not be the one which purges this sick brainwashers of the world but i am tired of being shocked by their attempts to brainwash young people be sure if someone exterminates all your brainwashers degeneracy i will watch him/her/... while eating popcorns instead of defending you. I normally respect the sexual desires and acts of other people without saying nothing, but when you instruct the children in your sex variety you go for the limit
When you start brainwashing the childs to follow your degeneracy called free sex values we have a problem, we had tosuffer brainwashing of sects, ideologies, churches which only wanted power instead of improving the humanity and now this...

At your level of impurity you are no more worth than savage animals for the average right wing person , of course you can live as you want having sex bla, bla... but never expect real tolerance for the right wing conservative people we can and will continue smiling to you and saying is fine we respect.... We can say we tolerate you in the real world but you must know we will never do in our internal feelings, of course we the right wing excepting the brainless radicals will never say this hidden disrespect in public much less when in minority we are not brainless, we will wait until your degeneracy generates problems and you start to force us to adopt your ''sex identities''.
I do not hate you i only see souls mixing and spirit degeneration in your practice.

I do not know who is the dark hand behind your movement but i am sure it wants to experiment with your sexual freedom to see deep you can carry it or to gain something probably demons or an entity which want fun of you. Congratulations you invented a lot of weird sex feelings which noone had like trigender and gender void. You one day without surprising me will invent the mantis sex identity and will start to cut off your companion heads with the teeths and worse identities.

Never forget Stalin, Fidel Castro, Che guevara and many of your 'revolutionary heroes' had a worse opinion in this matter than me. Stalin directly killed you, fidel and the other carried you to concentration camps to be trained in the military to become 'men'. We the conservative people will not do any hurt on you until you start to impose your gender indentities in ourselves after few decades of young brainwashing. Then we will force you to stop or else.

And this is not hate speech is the expression of my lack of empathy or simpathies for the LGTB+ members and my lack of aproval to you.
You are not different in your fake tolerance than the catholic church, the islamist and the soviet propaganda you say you respect all people and are tolerant... yeah right until you become majority or someone in not satified with your belief then you will start to terrorize the ''homofobic'' like the nazism did to all of your colectives or something even most barbaric than them.

Awaiting your reports for supposed hate speech ideological opposition and contrarevolutionary, maybe my opinion on the matter end considered as flaming i want to see the number of reports you will put to censore my opinion

...Well that was a thing. Anyone got a tl;dr?

TL;DR: gays bad, commies bad... mantises bad?