Islam, the future of social conservatism?

[Byzconia]

Then why disagree? We know for a fact that Mohammed incorporated elements of native Arabic religion into Islam. For instance, circling the Kaaba in Mecca was already a major religious practice of local tribes at the time.

The Kaaba was built by Abaraham, the Arabs corrupted it over time by introducing paganism but even during the pre-Islamic era the Kaaba contained Allah the God of Abraham, and local Christians and Jews reharded it sacred as well for this reason nothing in Islam originates from Arab paganism and whoever says this is highly uneducated and ignorant.

Literally, "everyone who disagrees with me is highly uneducated and ignorant." Which I guess includes most historians of the Middle East.

[Novus America]

But that does not support your point. The fact that Arab Paganism of the time certainly had Jewish influences does not mean Arab Paganism had no impact on Islam.

No it didnt because Islam is God's mandate not Muhammad's

What historical and archeological evidence do you have to support that?

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Of course. There's a term for it: syncretism. It naturally happens when religions and cultures encounter. For instance, Mithra worship in Rome was quite popular for a while after they encountered his worship in the east.

The God of Abaraham was present first and had Zamzam not existed Mecca would not exist either, paganism was introduced into Arabia after Christanity and Judaism from the Levant.

Mmmm. Doubtful. Considering both Esarhadon, Herodotus, and Strabo all write of their polytheistic beliefs. Unless you now believe Christianity predates Jesus by several hundred years? Which would be interesting.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

The Kaaba was built by Abaraham, the Arabs corrupted it over time by introducing paganism but even during the pre-Islamic era the Kaaba contained Allah the God of Abraham, and local Christians and Jews reharded it sacred as well for this reason nothing in Islam originates from Arab paganism and whoever says this is highly uneducated and ignorant.

Literally, "everyone who disagrees with me is highly uneducated and ignorant." Which I guess includes most historians of the Middle East.

Compared to Allah SWT, yes

[Lyxtovia]

I think Islam could be applied in most ideologies, right-wing or left-wing.
From a socialist Muslim

Assalaamu 'Alaikum I'm a Muslim as well.

I think some aspects of socialism are compatible with Al-Islam but idk about all of it. Also, doesn't Al-Islam already have an economic system?

I am asserting that if social conservatives and muslims joined forces in order to achieve goals like restrict divorce or abortion

Muslims shouldn't be restricting divorce, that's halal. As for abortion, in New York they now allow women to abort their children even by 9 months pregnancy. Are you ok with that?

then I as somebody who is on the secular liberal side of the west would gladly take the fight to this alliance. I strongly disagree with social conservatism, and thus do not much care about who is saying it. I am also antipathetic to religion, and so if believers of islam decide that that is what is important to them, then they won't get much rhetorical mercy from me.

Then let the jihad commence.

Wa'alaikum salam.
We only use the compatible aspects, and Islamic economics will be there too. It's a hybrid system.

[Byzconia]

No, I do not think Islam is the future of Western Conservatism or Conservatism in general. Islam is a religion and therefore can’t really be *completely* conservative and if you look at the Middle East today....well it wouldn’t be in the best interest of the West.

You cannot blame a single issue in the Middle East on Islam as much as people want to believe it is, none of the issues originate or have anything to do with Islam because if Islam was being practiced properly there would be regional peace and harmony, and if Islam was applied globally there would be world peace.

Oh, I see. It's okay, guys, all of that bad stuff is Not Real Islam!

[Novus America]

Of course. There's a term for it: syncretism. It naturally happens when religions and cultures encounter. For instance, Mithra worship in Rome was quite popular for a while after they encountered his worship in the east.

The God of Abaraham was present first and had Zamzam not existed Mecca would not exist either, paganism was introduced into Arabia after Christanity and Judaism from the Levant.

So? Even if it was (evidence?) It was still introduced before Islam.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

The God of Abaraham was present first and had Zamzam not existed Mecca would not exist either, paganism was introduced into Arabia after Christanity and Judaism from the Levant.

So? It was still introduced before Islam.

No it wasn't.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Umm actually there is a lack of historical and archeological evidence for the Abraham built it claim, and a large amount of evidence that he could not have done so.

By humans, not Allah SWT.

I mean, if Allah wants to come down and speak to me in a cave to tell me, I'd gladly accept. Hell, I'll even just take an angel or two. But until then, legend isn't a good enough replacement for archeology and reliable accounts from that period. If they were, we'd still think the Jews had come from Egypt to Canaan lol.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

You cannot blame a single issue in the Middle East on Islam as much as people want to believe it is, none of the issues originate or have anything to do with Islam because if Islam was being practiced properly there would be regional peace and harmony, and if Islam was applied globally there would be world peace.

Oh, I see. It's okay, guys, all of that bad stuff is Not Real Islam!

Just like "no real communism" is a thing, "no real Islam" exists as well.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Literally, "everyone who disagrees with me is highly uneducated and ignorant." Which I guess includes most historians of the Middle East.

Compared to Allah SWT, yes

See, that's what makes an omniscient God such a good cop-out, huh?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Compared to Allah SWT, yes

See, that's what makes an omniscient God such a good cop-out, huh?

I'm not copping out.

[Byzconia]

Literally, "everyone who disagrees with me is highly uneducated and ignorant." Which I guess includes most historians of the Middle East.

Compared to Allah SWT, yes

Ah, yes, the good 'ol "I have God on my side, therefore I'm right" argument. This may work in theological debates, but it's useless against someone who doesn't believe Allah even exists to begin with.

[Audioslavia]

Then why disagree? We know for a fact that Mohammed incorporated elements of native Arabic religion into Islam. For instance, circling the Kaaba in Mecca was already a major religious practice of local tribes at the time.

The Kaaba was built by Abaraham, the Arabs corrupted it over time by introducing paganism but even during the pre-Islamic era the Kaaba contained Allah the God of Abraham, and local Christians and Jews reharded it sacred as well for this reason nothing in Islam originates from Arab paganism and whoever says this is highly uneducated and ignorant.

Emphasis mine. This reads like an ad-hominem attack on Byzconia. This is a *** warning for flaming ***. Please be careful to attack a user's argument, not the user themselves.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

See, that's what makes an omniscient God such a good cop-out, huh?

I'm not copping out.

But it is. You repeatedly cite the "words" of an unreachable, all-knowing deity as your sole source as a replacement for actual archeology and historical accounts. Idk what you'd call that but okay.

[Novus America]

So? It was still introduced before Islam.

No it wasn't.

It certainly was before any human ever heard of Islam.
So it was before Islam was introduced.

Even if you argue (without evidence of course) Islam existed before in some unknown existence, it was still not INTRODUCED before Muhammad.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

No it wasn't.

It certainly was before any human ever heard of Islam.

No it wasn't. That word maybe, but not the worship.

[Byzconia]

Oh, I see. It's okay, guys, all of that bad stuff is Not Real Islam!

Just like "no real communism" is a thing, "no real Islam" exists as well.

Lol how is that supposed to help your argument? The "Not Real Communism" thing is a joke (to the point of being a meme) to non-Communists. You using the same logical fallacy doesn't support your argument in any way.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Just like "no real communism" is a thing, "no real Islam" exists as well.

Lol how is that supposed to help your argument? The "Not Real Communism" thing is a joke (to the point of being a meme) to non-Communists. You using the same logical fallacy doesn't support your argument in any way.

It's not a logical fallacy if done right. A communist advocating for government isn't a true communist. A Muslim believing in more than 1 god isn't a true Muslim.

[Lyxtovia]

Just like "no real communism" is a thing, "no real Islam" exists as well.

Lol how is that supposed to help your argument? The "Not Real Communism" thing is a joke (to the point of being a meme) to non-Communists. You using the same logical fallacy doesn't support your argument in any way.

True, but have you heard of something called "revisionism"? It's a term used by the commies. We also have people like that in Islam.

[Novus America]

It certainly was before any human ever heard of Islam.

No it wasn't. That word maybe, but not the worship.

No human followed Islam before Muhammad, even according to Islam.
Because it was Muhammad it was first fully revealed to, according to Islam.

[Byzconia]

It certainly was before any human ever heard of Islam.

No it wasn't. That word maybe, but not the worship.

As I've already pointed out several times, the Kaaba was a part of religious practices in pre-Islamic Arabia. We literally know this for a fact. Constantly denying history doesn't mean that that history didn't happen.

[Lyxtovia]

No it wasn't. That word maybe, but not the worship.

As I've already pointed out several times, the Kaaba was a part of religious practices in pre-Islamic Arabia. We literally know this for a fact. Constantly denying history doesn't mean that that history didn't happen.

In 2000 BC though, it was a part of Islamic religious practices. Pre-Islamic Arabia? It's a relatively new era compared to Ibrahim's time.

[Byzconia]

Lol how is that supposed to help your argument? The "Not Real Communism" thing is a joke (to the point of being a meme) to non-Communists. You using the same logical fallacy doesn't support your argument in any way.

It's not a logical fallacy if done right. A communist advocating for government isn't a true communist.

Communism isn't against government, it's against the state. Even then, Communist ideology is most certainly supportive of a "transitional" worker's state. The argument (Marxist) Communists use is that the USSR/China/Vietnam/whoever wasn't "real Communism" because they did A/B/C when they should have done X/Y/Z. This is a fallacy.

A Muslim believing in more than 1 god isn't a true Muslim.

What does this have to do with anything? No one has mentioned this until you, right now.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

No it wasn't. That word maybe, but not the worship.

No human followed Islam before Muhammad, even according to Islam.
Because it was Muhammad it was first fully revealed to, according to Islam.

Fully revealed to, yes. But it existed in its incomplete form before then.

No it wasn't. That word maybe, but not the worship.

As I've already pointed out several times, the Kaaba was a part of religious practices in pre-Islamic Arabia. We literally know this for a fact. Constantly denying history doesn't mean that that history didn't happen.

Good thing I never denied it.