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Islam, the future of social conservatism?

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Minzerland II
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Postby Minzerland II » Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:55 pm

Lyxtovia wrote:
Solar Iran wrote:If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

True. Islam can be fascist, liberal, or communist.

Only if you twist and alter it to an unrecognisable level. Satan twisted scripture for his purposes, Liberals will be no different, whether it be trying to twist Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other religion.
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Minquasdal
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Postby Minquasdal » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:24 am

Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal
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Lyxtovia
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Postby Lyxtovia » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:28 am

Minquasdal wrote:Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal

Islam is more socialist than fascist btw.

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Minquasdal
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Postby Minquasdal » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:37 am

Lyxtovia wrote:
Minquasdal wrote:Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal

Islam is more socialist than fascist btw.

How is Islam either? These are very distinct things, millions of people have died for them, I don't think it's terribly relevant to say something is more like something when it isn't that thing, even though what that thing actually is is extremely important.

Regards, Minquasdal.
Last edited by Minquasdal on Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sahansahiye Iran
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Postby Sahansahiye Iran » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:38 am

Minquasdal wrote:
Lyxtovia wrote:Islam is more socialist than fascist btw.

How is Islam either? These are very distinct things, millions of people have died for them, I don't think it's terribly relevant to say something is more like something when it isn't that thing, even though what that thing actually is is extremely important.

Regards, Minquasdal.

Things are capable of having certain characteristics of a political ideology without being entirely that ideology, ya know.
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Solar Iran
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Postby Solar Iran » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:01 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Solar Iran wrote:If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

1: Al-Islam can't be liberal considering its gender roles, opposition to homosexuality, etc.
2: Mu'tazila is dead afaik, and I don't think it's liberal. It's just a different (and wrong iirc) interpretation.
3: I wouldn't consider Sufism to be liberal either. It's just a different way of getting closer to Allah SWT. Yes, some tariqat are against unification or masjid and state but that doesn't make them liberal.


That's like saying Christianity or Judaism can't be liberal. Religions can change over time, and be reinterpreted.

Figures like Mohammad Abduh and leaders like Amanullah Khan prove that you can be Muslim and have relatively liberal views.

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Solar Iran
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Postby Solar Iran » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:02 am

Minzerland II wrote:
Lyxtovia wrote:True. Islam can be fascist, liberal, or communist.

Only if you twist and alter it to an unrecognisable level. Satan twisted scripture for his purposes, Liberals will be no different, whether it be trying to twist Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other religion.


Friend, surely you don't believe Satan is a real being?

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Phoenicaea
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Postby Phoenicaea » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:42 am

^ i ve claimed the opposite, nevertheless @Minquasdal has got a good a milenstone claim against.

how they could unite so, perhaps mix through immigration. reactionnaries are against dark moorish and asean muslims, not against others, as half-breeds.

what i mean here, is ideologies in faction politics are sort of tracks, rather than strict rules.

nevertheless in the domain of reason, @Minquasdal perhaps has got it.
Last edited by Phoenicaea on Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ardoki
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Postby Ardoki » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:48 am

Religion stands in the way of progress. Perhaps it should be abolished?
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Minzerland II
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Postby Minzerland II » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:47 am

Solar Iran wrote:
Minzerland II wrote:Only if you twist and alter it to an unrecognisable level. Satan twisted scripture for his purposes, Liberals will be no different, whether it be trying to twist Christianity, Islam, Judaism, or any other religion.


Friend, surely you don't believe Satan is a real being?

Of course he is, the world is unexplainable without demons running up and about the world.
Solar Iran wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:1: Al-Islam can't be liberal considering its gender roles, opposition to homosexuality, etc.
2: Mu'tazila is dead afaik, and I don't think it's liberal. It's just a different (and wrong iirc) interpretation.
3: I wouldn't consider Sufism to be liberal either. It's just a different way of getting closer to Allah SWT. Yes, some tariqat are against unification or masjid and state but that doesn't make them liberal.


That's like saying Christianity or Judaism can't be liberal. Religions can change over time, and be reinterpreted.

Figures like Mohammad Abduh and leaders like Amanullah Khan prove that you can be Muslim and have relatively liberal views.

They cannot unless you deliberately reinterpret and misinterpret passages and teachings. In which case, it isn’t the same religion anymore but a feel-good, liberal counterfeit. So yeah, unless you’re twisting and lying, then these religions cannot be said to be liberal. The adherents of these pale imitations are, imo, not even adherents of the religion they claim their own.

No, it doesn’t. It only proves that people can hold inconsistent, contradictory beliefs simultaneously. Sort of like cognitive dissonance, if I misappropriate the term.
Last edited by Minzerland II on Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Mystic Warriors
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Postby Mystic Warriors » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:07 am

Christianity isnt going anywhere and neither is conservativism. I see plenty of young conservatives and they vote Republican. Even if Christians lose here Islam won't take its place, it will face the same issues and lose too.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:12 am

Minquasdal wrote:Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal

There are a few Islamist parties in Europe right now. Yeah, they don't get a lot of votes, but still.
Solar Iran wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:1: Al-Islam can't be liberal considering its gender roles, opposition to homosexuality, etc.
2: Mu'tazila is dead afaik, and I don't think it's liberal. It's just a different (and wrong iirc) interpretation.
3: I wouldn't consider Sufism to be liberal either. It's just a different way of getting closer to Allah SWT. Yes, some tariqat are against unification or masjid and state but that doesn't make them liberal.


That's like saying Christianity or Judaism can't be liberal.

They can't. Their teachings are not in the liberal framework.
Solar Iran wrote:Religions can change over time, and be reinterpreted.

Then the people are changing, not the religion.
Solar Iran wrote:Figures like Mohammad Abduh and leaders like Amanullah Khan prove that you can be Muslim and have relatively liberal views.

See above.
Ardoki wrote:Religion stands in the way of progress.

This is a historical lie.
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Postby United Capitalist Federations » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:18 am

Well, to be honest, I doubt many on the modern right would embrace Islam for MANY reasons, as yes, it is socially conservative, but so is Christianity, and many in America (not just conservatives/right-wingers) have a huge disconnect with Islam as it is literally a foreign concept. I think the already very Christian right and by extension the US would be very hard-pressed to welcome Islam, especially more extreme right-wingers and atheists/agnostics/etc.

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Postby ShakaZuli » Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:24 am

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Minquasdal wrote:Why would a universalist doctrine like Islam appeal to Alt-righters and the nationalist new right that wants to actively exclude people? Maybe for a few people on the fringes it might, but otherwise a home-grown Islamist movement in America or the West in general would fail

Regards, Minquasdal

There are a few Islamist parties in Europe right now. Yeah, they don't get a lot of votes, but still.
Solar Iran wrote:
That's like saying Christianity or Judaism can't be liberal.

They can't. Their teachings are not in the liberal framework.
Solar Iran wrote:Religions can change over time, and be reinterpreted.

Then the people are changing, not the religion.
Solar Iran wrote:Figures like Mohammad Abduh and leaders like Amanullah Khan prove that you can be Muslim and have relatively liberal views.

See above.
Ardoki wrote:Religion stands in the way of progress.

This is a historical lie.

What is your expectation of Europe once you conquer it?

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sun Feb 03, 2019 9:07 am

United Capitalist Federations wrote:Well, to be honest, I doubt many on the modern right would embrace Islam for MANY reasons, as yes, it is socially conservative, but so is Christianity, and many in America (not just conservatives/right-wingers) have a huge disconnect with Islam as it is literally a foreign concept. I think the already very Christian right and by extension the US would be very hard-pressed to welcome Islam, especially more extreme right-wingers and atheists/agnostics/etc.

Al-Islam isn't a foreign religion to the west. Muslims have been in and out of the west for a long time.
ShakaZuli wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:There are a few Islamist parties in Europe right now. Yeah, they don't get a lot of votes, but still.

They can't. Their teachings are not in the liberal framework.

Then the people are changing, not the religion.

See above.

This is a historical lie.

What is your expectation of Europe once you conquer it?

Dude I live in America lol. I don't even have a job nor car yet, how do you expect me to conquer a continent? :rofl:
Last edited by El-Amin Caliphate on Sun Feb 03, 2019 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kowani » Sun Feb 03, 2019 11:14 am

Minzerland II wrote:
Solar Iran wrote:
Friend, surely you don't believe Satan is a real being?

Of course he is, the world is unexplainable without demons running up and about the world.

So, these evil beings that are the source of evil are running around, and God, omnipotent and omnibenevolent, just lets it happen. I mean, he’s destroyed them before, so I assume he can do it again...
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Postby Ardoki » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:12 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Ardoki wrote:Religion stands in the way of progress.

This is a historical lie.

Well, it is certainly correct with regards to organised religion (especially the Abrahamic religions). They are very dogmatic, which is incompatible with progress.
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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:48 pm

Ardoki wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:This is a historical lie.

Well, it is certainly correct with regards to organised religion (especially the Abrahamic religions). They are very dogmatic, which is incompatible with progress.

Look up the Islamic Golden Age.
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Postby Jolthig » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:08 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
Ardoki wrote:Well, it is certainly correct with regards to organised religion (especially the Abrahamic religions). They are very dogmatic, which is incompatible with progress.

Look up the Islamic Golden Age.

It can even be argued that Muhammad (saw) himself was a progressive (not in the modern and more Western sense of course), but because of the fact, he saved Arabia from many internal problems.
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Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

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Postby Byzconia » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:09 pm

ShakaZuli wrote:Islam will definitely win in future but not because of the religion of Islam per se but because of demography. Things will end like when Turks demographically conquered Byzantium. Whites are poisoned by decades long liberalism and toxic individualism which combined with materialism creates a nihilist and atomised society


Not really how demographics works. The Turks didn't "demographically conquer" Byzantium, they just conquered it. They took over the Byzantine Empire militarily and colonized it with their own people (not that there weren't Turks living there already, but they were by no means a significant minority). What you're talking about here is literally just a flipped perspective on the "white genocide" idea. But, again, that's not how demographics works.
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Postby Jolthig » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:13 pm

Ardoki wrote:Religion stands in the way of progress. Perhaps it should be abolished?

No it does not.

And no because people have religious freedom. You're really not going to convince anyone to give up their faith if somehow religion is made illegal. It just won't happen.

You might be able to keep it out in public, but in private, people will still practice their faith. Not unless you want an Orwellian way of doing it; even then, you simply won't be able to change the minds of religious people.
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Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

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LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:13 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:
United Capitalist Federations wrote:Well, to be honest, I doubt many on the modern right would embrace Islam for MANY reasons, as yes, it is socially conservative, but so is Christianity, and many in America (not just conservatives/right-wingers) have a huge disconnect with Islam as it is literally a foreign concept. I think the already very Christian right and by extension the US would be very hard-pressed to welcome Islam, especially more extreme right-wingers and atheists/agnostics/etc.

Al-Islam isn't a foreign religion to the west. Muslims have been in and out of the west for a long time.

True, but irrelevant. Most Americans have absolutely no (direct) interaction with Muslims. For all intents and purposes, it is a foreign concept.
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Postby Jolthig » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:14 pm

Byzconia wrote:
El-Amin Caliphate wrote:Al-Islam isn't a foreign religion to the west. Muslims have been in and out of the west for a long time.

True, but irrelevant. Most Americans have absolutely no (direct) interaction with Muslims. For all intents and purposes, it is a foreign concept.

True, it is actually estimated that nearly 60% of Americans have not met a Muslim.
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Kowani wrote:
Jolthig wrote:Lol why

“Und Mirza”

:lol2:

Jean-Paul Sartre wrote:
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:Isn't that what NSG is for though to a degree?

YOU’RE WRONG.

Allow me to explain using several fallacies, veiled insults, and insinuations that you’re ugly and dumb.

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Byzconia
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Postby Byzconia » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:20 pm

Jolthig wrote:
Byzconia wrote:True, but irrelevant. Most Americans have absolutely no (direct) interaction with Muslims. For all intents and purposes, it is a foreign concept.

True, it is actually estimated that nearly 60% of Americans have not met a Muslim.


And to further supplement my point, Americans (even conservative ones) have been becoming increasingly irreligious over time (like most Western states, though their transitions have largely finished at this point). While I don't doubt Islam could win some converts, the reality is that religion is just becoming less important in people's lives and their more likely to stay irreligious (or become atheist) than jump to another religion. Especially when you consider that the main reasons most young people give for leaving Christianity is their perception of it being "out of touch with modern values" and "anti-LGBT rights." Given Islam's reputation in regards to LGBTQ+ folks (at least among Westerners), it's unlikely to really gain mass support.

And this doesn't just apply to progressives/liberals, either. Young conservatives are also more welcoming of gay and trans people than previous generations (though bigotry still remains, of course).
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Andoros
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Postby Andoros » Sun Feb 03, 2019 3:36 pm

Isn't adopting a foreign religion to combat so-called progressivism the antithesis of conservatism? Islam in this context seems to be more a (foreign) moralizer reaction movement rather than legitimate belief. And while I agree some may find a better purpose for themselves as a Muslim, they will likely remain a tiny minority. Some might even later denounce Islam as a fad of their lives (although then they probably weren't good converts to begin with).

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