Islam, the future of social conservatism?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

1: Al-Islam can't be liberal considering its gender roles, opposition to homosexuality, etc.
2: Mu'tazila is dead afaik, and I don't think it's liberal. It's just a different (and wrong iirc) interpretation.
3: I wouldn't consider Sufism to be liberal either. It's just a different way of getting closer to Allah SWT. Yes, some tariqat are against unification or masjid and state but that doesn't make them liberal.

[Khataiy]

If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

The Mutazila are not Muslims, but even if they were they are not "liberals" the only thing "liberal" about them is that they think its okay to use Greek philosophy as part of Aqeedah and Fiqh these people literally tortured Ahmed Ibn Hanbal for refusing to say the Quran is not uncreated, but they are not Muslims, as for Sufis a lot are perfectly normal Muslims and to not ascribe to "liberal" ideals such as the Naqshbandi they are normal Muslims as for the ones that you are likely thinking of no they are not Muslims in India a lot of them incorporate Hinduism with Islam and this is not allowed.

[Khataiy]

If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

1: Al-Islam can't be liberal considering its gender roles, opposition to homosexuality, etc.
2: Mu'tazila is dead afaik, and I don't think it's liberal. It's just a different (and wrong iirc) interpretation.
3: I wouldn't consider Sufism to be liberal either. It's just a different way of getting closer to Allah SWT. Yes, some tariqat are against unification or masjid and state but that doesn't make them liberal.

The Mutazila are not dead at all, in an "official" sense they are dead but their beliefs are well alive and carried by many

[Aglanen]

El-Amin Caliphate Have you stopped to question to yourself why dictating to gay/lesbian individuals who they're allowed to be in a relationship with, or dictating to men and women (although let's be real, it's primarily towards women) what "roles" they're permitted to have and what attitudes they're allowed to express is a good thing?

If this were the "natural order of things" then there would be no need for religious conservatives to propagate or enforce it. Same if it were how God designed us to act. You don't need to teach a dog how to bark at strangers, they already know and are quite inclined to by their nature. If it were a woman's natural inclination to stay in the kitchen, countries like Saudi Arabia wouldn't need to impose harsh policies to bar them from skilled labour and indoctrinate their chauvinistic garbage from childhood onward. It wouldn't even cross their minds to be anymore than their husband's baby factory/sandwich maker.

Interesting to look at the Muslim world as a prime example of religious conservatism. They certainly are, no doubt. They're also a prime example how destructive, backward, barbaric, and oppressive cesspool it can make of a country. The better example are, just like in the west, the much more secular muslim countries.

[Khataiy]

El-Amin Caliphate Have you stopped to question to yourself why dictating to gay/lesbian individuals who they're allowed to be in a relationship with, or dictating to men and women (although let's be real, it's primarily towards women) what "roles" they're permitted to have and what attitudes they're allowed to express is a good thing?

If this were the "natural order of things" then there would be no need for religious conservatives to propagate or enforce it. Same if it were how God designed us to act. You don't need to teach a dog how to bark at strangers, they already know and are quite inclined to by their nature. If it were a woman's natural inclination to stay in the kitchen, countries like Saudi Arabia wouldn't need to impose harsh policies to bar them from skilled labour and indoctrinate their chauvinistic garbage from childhood onward. It wouldn't even cross their minds to be anymore than their husband's baby factory/sandwich maker.

Interesting to look at the Muslim world as a prime example of religious conservatism. They certainly are, no doubt. They're also a prime example how destructive, backward, barbaric, and oppressive cesspool it can make of a country. The better example are, just like in the west, the much more secular muslim countries.

You need to understand the concept of Fitra and how Satan tempts people

[El-Amin Caliphate]

El-Amin Caliphate Have you stopped to question to yourself why dictating to gay/lesbian individuals who they're allowed to be in a relationship with, or dictating to men and women (although let's be real, it's primarily towards women) what "roles" they're permitted to have and what attitudes they're allowed to express is a good thing?

If this were the "natural order of things" then there would be no need for religious conservatives to propagate or enforce it. Same if it were how God designed us to act. You don't need to teach a dog how to bark at strangers, they already know and are quite inclined to by their nature. If it were a woman's natural inclination to stay in the kitchen, countries like Saudi Arabia wouldn't need to impose harsh policies to bar them from skilled labour and indoctrinate their chauvinistic garbage from childhood onward. It wouldn't even cross their minds to be anymore than their husband's baby factory/sandwich maker.

Interesting to look at the Muslim world as a prime example of religious conservatism. They certainly are, no doubt. They're also a prime example how destructive, backward, barbaric, and oppressive cesspool it can make of a country. The better example are, just like in the west, the much more secular muslim countries.

You need to understand the concept of Fitra and how Satan tempts people

^This. As for gender roles, they are somewhat flexible in Al-Islam. Yes, men are supposed to be the providers and women the home-carers, but they can be switched (as Islamic historical evidence shows, particularly in the womens' situation). Also, secular Muslim countries are bad, just like the extremist Muslim countries.

[Aglanen]

You need to understand the concept of Fitra and how Satan tempts people

You need to understand that the only trickery "Satan" has successfully managed on humanity is of his own existence.

[Khataiy]

You need to understand the concept of Fitra and how Satan tempts people

You need to understand that the only trickery "Satan" has successfully managed on humanity is of his own existence.

The fact is that people are subject to falling for his temptation and tricks even the most pious, which is why in Islam we must propagate virtue and prevent vice.

[Aglanen]

^This. As for gender roles, they are somewhat flexible in Al-Islam. Yes, men are supposed to be the providers and women the home-carers, but they can be switched (as Islamic historical evidence shows, particularly in the womens' situation). Also, secular Muslim countries are bad, just like the extremist Muslim countries.

I have no interest in compromising with what is inherently a decadent ideology. Christian, Muslim, otherwise. You're all the same at the bottom line.

[Aglanen]

The fact is that people are subject to falling for his temptation and tricks even the most pious, which is why in Islam we must propagate virtue and prevent vice.

r/whooosh

[El-Amin Caliphate]

^This. As for gender roles, they are somewhat flexible in Al-Islam. Yes, men are supposed to be the providers and women the home-carers, but they can be switched (as Islamic historical evidence shows, particularly in the womens' situation). Also, secular Muslim countries are bad, just like the extremist Muslim countries.

I have no interest in compromising with what is inherently a decadent ideology. Christian, Muslim, otherwise. You're all the same at the bottom line.

I'm not 100% sure on what you're saying here.

[Byzconia]

Not that I'm particularly Keen to defend him... But turn that around.

In no way was his massive post about the bizarre and Byzantine laws of Islam "claiming you lacked the knowledge to have an opinion while providing no reason why."

Well, he did provide a reason, true. The reason, however, was "you're not a Muslim," which is extremely silly. I'm also not a Christian, but am still fully capable of understanding Christianity. Same with Islam. The real issue, though, is that my understanding of Islam doesn't line up with his specific interpretation, meaning I must be wrong. Hence my frustration.

Not to mention your own source doesn't even say the Courtiers reply fallacy even exists.

Fair point, but it should be noted that the argument itself (ie. that "you're not a Muslim, therefore you automatically no less about Islam than Muslims") is still illogical. I don't doubt there are plenty of Muslims well-versed in the Quran, just like Catholic priests know a lot about the Bible--that doesn't mean their interpretation is "more correct" (or just "correct," period).

He provided ten reasons why. With text quotes to back it up. Are you convinced by those? Apparently not, but you can hardly dismiss them as fallacious.

Firstly, the quotes don't back him up. They're general outlines of what Islam is from one scholar. Since you clearly haven't read anything else I've written so far, I'll say it again: he is free to define "Islam" however he sees fit, using any reasoning he desires. However, his definition is not "The One True Islam," no matter how badly he wants it to be. That's the crux of the issue, here.

Secondly, nothing about those quotes disqualifies groups he dislikes (such as Alawites) from being Muslims. He attempted to make no annotation nor draw any connection as to why, "Alawites aren't Real Muslims because this, this, and this." He just posted quotes and went, "SEE? I'M RIGHT!!!!"

Stop projecting your own stubbornness onto them.

Like I said, you clearly haven't read a single other bit of our conversation.

[Hurricania Imperium]

Currently, a large segment among the modern Right are concerned with the increasing encroachment of progressive social values, and (contrary to some people who think this is still the heyday of liberal rationality era of early 2010s) not necessarily for religious reasons. Many perceive these values as responsible for a culture of promiscuity, state-dependence, and maniacal piety contests, which in turn undermined family values and caused a decline in social cohesion. Whether these claims are true is irrelevant - what matters is that many believe that many material/secular ills of modern society are directly caused by proliferation of irresponsible value system. Jordan Peterson is perhaps an apt representation of such beliefs. Therefore, many turned back towards traditions and faith, chiefly Christianity as the traditional religion of much of the West. Not necessarily out of beliefs per se - but as a vehicle of the culture war against Progresssivism, a coherent structure that glues together their sense of identity torn apart by social atomism.

But Christians are losing their own culture war. Throughout the West, not only that observant Christians are declining in number, their values are also being undermined by eternal march towards Progress that values short-term pleasures and a freer range of behaviors compared to those ordained by traditional morality. Christian leaders and institutions don't exactly provide the most exemplary moral guidance, either - many in desperation for the ears of the flock start breaking ranks and making concessions to the Zeitgeist, recognizing values alien to their historical predecessors. It's not exactly unrealistic considering the present trend that soon anything sort of washed-down diverse Unitarian Universalism will be unpalatable to polite society, discriminated as a sort of archaic bigotry.

In a way, betting on Christianity to win the war of cultural values against Progressivism is a losing fight from the get-go. It is simply far too ill-equipped. There is another religion, however, that is currently rising in prominence, rapidly growing in many Western countries, that could solve many social ills traditionalists decry about modern, secularized society.

(Image)

https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/27/muslim-p ... s-8399641/

Books now being read by pupils at Parkfield Community School include Mommy, Mama and Me and King & King, both of which are stories about same-sex relationships and marriages.

But Mr Moffat, who is gay, has come under fire from some Muslim parents who believe homosexuality is a sin.

Outraged mum Fatima Shah has taken her 10-year-old daughter out of the school.

She said: ‘It’s inappropriate, totally wrong. Children are being told it’s OK to be gay yet 98 per cent of children at this school are Muslim. It’s a Muslim community.

‘I’ve taken my daughter out and other parents have too. Enough is enough. Sex relationship education is being taught without our consent. We’ve not been informed about what’s being taught. ‘Mr Moffat is running what’s called CHIPS – challenging homophobia in primary schools – and it’s totally against Islamic beliefs. My child came home and told me am I OK to be a boy? It’s confusing children about sexuality.

‘I want my child to learn about English, maths and science. I’m keeping my daughter away from the school until something is done. I’ve been paying £20-an-hour tuition at home instead.’

Compared to Christianity, Islam has several advantages in preserving traditional morality.

The first is that its relatively exotic, non-white status confers advantageous privileges. It is far easier to advocate conservative values cloaked through "diversity" and "values of marginalized community". This is why, after all, hijab, a clothing intended as social and sexual control for women, is also bizarrely represented in woke propaganda. Or how anti-semitism penetrated Women's March (Sarsour herself being a well-known Hamas enthusiast, and Mallory an open admirer of Farrakhan). This will be increasingly evident as the number of Muslims increase, and their political clout grows in importance.

Second, Islam has a vastly more sophisticated mechanism of patriarchal social control. It is hardly controversial than in general, women have much less rights in Islam than Christianity. To be more precise, their roles and rights are clearly delineated in al-Qur'an, which is regarded as literal heavenly revelation, and thus followed pretty much word-by-word. There is no weaseling for promiscuity - homosexuality is explicitly condemned in the Qur'an, mentioned as the exact reason God punished Sodom. Fornication has a clear punishment, also explicitly written in the scripture. In short, the room for interpretation regarding sexual morality in Islam is pretty strict, and traditional scholars generally do not dispute over them. The rules made it clear - promiscuous behaviors belong only in very secret, men and women have strictly delineated roles for each other. Little wonder that Muslim communities in general tend to have higher birthrate than other communities around them.

Third, Muslim societies have a high social cohesion and intense sense of identity. Protests ensuing after perceived slights and insults to the Prophet could attest that easily. It is uncontroversial among traditional scholars that apostasy is criminal and punishable - by death. This might seem objectionable until one remembers that freedom of thought is partly the reason many drifted away and abandoned the Christian flock. Muslim societies have apostates (such as Yours Truly!) but they keep themselves in secret, behind the doors, thereby ensuring that degenerate ideas do not publicly spread. Even today, Muslims maintain highly segregated existence in Europe, ensuring preservation of their values in face of increasingly hostile world.

Plenty of Muslims have started to resist tides of Progress. Rate of opposition to homosexuality, for example, remains far higher among Muslim communities in Europe, which should a grave cause of concern among LGBT communities there. They appeal to the wishes of Western leaders to avoid offending their sensibilities, which are very thin - but on the other hand, very enforceable. Between an increasing importance of Muslim political voice in Europe, and increasing social liberalization, there's no way this bodes well. Both parties will clash, and quite violently at that.

So, traditionalists, social conservatives, fascists, and alt-rightists of NSG. Instead of the virgin Christianity, why not the chad Islam?

We do NOT want Islam, but maybe another religion can work. Maybe Judaism? Christianity? Buddhism? F**KING FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTERS?!

[El-Amin Caliphate]

We do NOT want Islam

Ey bruv, you shouldn't project your feelings onto others.

[Karu Nadu]

If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

Al-Islam can't be liberal considering its gender roles, opposition to homosexuality, etc.

I'm not muslim, so it may seem as if I'm interfering with your religion, just please note that I'm not trying to do that.

My personal opinion is that most religions ought to adapt over time, as do most Ideologies, which means that strict interpretations of old values and rules of Islam may be ignored, just as they have been with almost every religion.

[Genivaria]

We do NOT want Islam

Ey bruv, you shouldn't project your feelings onto others.

No Islam is pretty awful, offer up a better Middle Eastern religion.
Like Zoroastrianism.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Ey bruv, you shouldn't project your feelings onto others.

No Islam is pretty awful, offer up a better Middle Eastern religion.
Like Zoroastrianism.

*offers*

[Lyxtovia]

If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

True. Islam can be fascist, liberal, or communist.

[ShakaZuli]

Islam will definitely win in future but not because of the religion of Islam per se but because of demography. Things will end like when Turks demographically conquered Byzantium. Whites are poisoned by decades long liberalism and toxic individualism which combined with materialism creates a nihilist and atomised society

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Ey bruv, you shouldn't project your feelings onto others.

No Islam is pretty awful

Nice opinion.

If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.

True. Islam can be fascist, liberal, or communist.

False

[Genivaria]

No Islam is pretty awful

Nice opinion.

True. Islam can be fascist, liberal, or communist.

False

It's funny that you think dismissing something as just an opinion constitutes an argument.

[United States of Americanas]

Religion isn’t the answer.

This thread is a headache to read. Therefore my reply is as simple as this.

I say no to theocracy!

People are free to follow whatever religion they wish. But forcing Christianity or Islam or anything down everyone’s throat in the name of social conservatism is trash in my eyes.

With this post I hereby dismiss myself from this thread and shall have no further interactions with this pile of rubbish.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Nice opinion.

False

It's funny that you think dismissing something as just an opinion constitutes an argument.

I wasn't, I was commenting. And what you said is an opinion.

Religion isn’t the answer.

This thread is a headache to read. Therefore my reply is as simple as this.

I say no to theocracy!

And I say "yes" to theocracy.

People are free to follow whatever religion they wish. But forcing Christianity or Islam or anything down everyone’s throat in the name of social conservatism is trash in my eyes.

Agreed.

With this post I hereby dismiss myself from this thread and shall have no further interactions with this pile of rubbish.

You say this like you been commenting on this thread before. Afaik I haven't seen any post of yours here except this one.

[Menassa]

As long as they let me pay the jizyah and live in peace I don't particularly care.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

As long as they let me pay the jizyah and live in peace I don't particularly care.