Islam, the future of social conservatism?

[Khataiy]

My examples work beautiful you just don't want to accept that

Ah, yes, the Trump method of argument. "I have the best examples. The greatest examples. You're only disagreeing with them because you can't understand my intelligence. I'm a very intelligent man."

not every one who runs around saying "I'm Muslim" is Muslims for what I only assume is personal reasons,

but this is not how Islam works we have a set of rules you must follow to be a Muslim otherwise you are not one and its that simple.

And those rules vary from sect to sect.

No my personal beliefs are not the guidance of Islam nor am I the epicenter of Islamic theology no one is,

Horseshit. You clearly think your version of Islam is the only "right" one--hence why you refuse to acknowledge that anyone who disagrees with your specific theology could be a "Real Muslim." Narrowmindedness. Pure and simple.

God will judge us as individuals not as a whole and that is the entire point of Islam to strive for excellence and perfection and call others to it.

Given that you've mostly just been putting down other Muslims for not being "the right kind of Muslim," I'd say you've done a pretty shit job on all counts.

"Horseshit. You clearly think your version of Islam is the only "right" one--hence why you refuse to acknowledge that anyone who disagrees with your specific theology could be a "Real Muslim." Narrowmindedness. Pure and simple."

If it is "horseshit" that I do not believe I am the basis of Islamic theology than it is equally horseshit for someone who fails to comply with what is required to be a Muslim, is a Muslim.

I refuse to accept them because I myself would be an apostate for accepting them, failing to call a disbeliever a disbeliever would take you out of the fold of Islam and this is aside the fact I do not want the honor of the word Muslim to be tarnished by the filthy actions that are associated with the ones not affiliated with our religion, I do not want to be in the same boat as people that God has told would be guaranteed hellfire.

This is not my theology, these are not my rules, these are established rules of Islam, these are things that will take you outside of the fold of Islam:

1 – Shirk or associating others in worship with Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah forgives not (the sin of) setting up partners (in worship) with Him, but He forgives whom He wills, sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allaah, has indeed strayed far away”

[al-Nisa’ 4:116]

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode”

[al-Maa’idah 5:72]

That includes praying to the dead, seeking their help, making vows and offering sacrifices to them or to the jinn or to the grave.

2 – Whoever sets up intermediaries between himself and Allaah, asks them to intercede, and puts his trust in them, is a kaafir according to scholarly consensus.

3 – Whoever does not regard the mushrikeen as kaafirs, or doubts that they are kaafirs, or regards their way as correct, is a kaafir.

4 – Whoever believes that anything other than the teaching of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is more complete than his teachings, or that the rulings of anyone else are better than his rulings – such as those who prefer the rule of false laws to his rulings – is a kaafir.

5 – Whoever hates any part of that which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) brought, even if he acts in accordance with it, is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“That is because they hate that which Allaah has sent down (this Qur’aan and Islamic laws); so He has made their deeds fruitless”

[Muhammad 47:9]

6 – Whoever makes fun of anything in the religion of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or makes fun of any texts that refer to rewards or punishments, is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:65-66]

7 – Sihr (witchcraft) – including spells to turn one person against another or to make someone love another. Whoever does this or approves of it is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) till they had said, ‘We are for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:102]

8 – Supporting the mushrikeen and helping them against the Muslims. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”

[al-Maa'idah 5:51]

9 – Whoever believes that some people are allowed to operate outside the law of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) just as al-Khidr operated outside the law of Moosa (peace be upon him) is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

10 – Turning away from the religion of Allaah, not learning it and not acting in accordance with it. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of his Lord, then turns aside therefrom? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the Mujrimoon (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners)”

[al-Sajdah 32:22]

I did not write a word of this, and this can be found here this was written by a scholar of Islam something I am not and you certainly are not either, so it is really absurd to try to educate me on my own religion when you aren't even a Muslim.

[Khataiy]

The way you word it makes it sound like they are wrong, but the truth of the matter is no I do not support homosexuality or paganism because God has made it for men to be with women and for women to be with men it's natural its basic biology you don't even need to be a Muslim or religious person to understand why homosexuality is wrong its evident by the fact that diseases like AIDS and HIV affect homosexuals more than any other group even though some heterosexuals contract it, it will never effect heterosexuals like homosexuals, but even then in spirit of this thread do understand that in the bible it says: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." So you could actually word this "So Christianity prohibits homophobia and persecution of non-Christians?" Because you are also neglecting to note unlike Islam Christianity does not tolerate any other religion not even Jews or Muslims are safe according to pure Christianity because salvation only exists through belief in Jesus everyone else is scum.

You realize I don't give a rat's ass about Christianity either, right? I think they're both faiths that are fundamentally flawed and your God is an asshole. Simple as that.

Of course.

Why not?

How does it prevent it?

And I don't even need to answer the second question. He literally did it for me.

It protects non muslims yes.

You know, actually reading posts is a useful thing to do. Non-Abrahamic minorities. Not the precious dhimmi.

Just going to leave this here.

And you still need to work on reading whole posts

Theologically, it does establish protections for Christians and Jews. In practice, it depended on where you lived and when (Fatimid Egypt and Moorish Spain were pretty decent for the most part--Seljuk Jerusalem, not so much). And you're right, I actually completely forgot about the Bahai'is. They really are getting a pretty shit deal in Iran (as do Zoroastrians, though they're "officially" protected). And a lot of Middle Eastern countries just straight up execute atheists (as well as apostates).

Yeah, the persecution of the Bahai is absolutely disgraceful. It's actually tied into your last bit. The IR treats them as apostates.

Bahais are not subject to protection under Islamic law only Christians, Jews and Sabians are, and they never will be.

This just proves the point even bloody more, Khataiy. Islam doesn't protect them. So, if "Islam were being followed properly", no. Not all of the problems in the Middle East would go away.

Wow a non-Muslim trying to educate me on the consensus of the Uleama and every Shari'i ruling from Ibn Taymiyya the Sheikh of Islam and Ibn Qiyyam regarding them, and every ruling from every Shia scholar on this earth that is studied and revered and every Shia Imam that has literally ever lived since the inception of the Alawite cult, Ibn Nusayr was declared a disbeliever by his own teacher who was among the 12 Shia Imams there is no such thing as an Alawite Muslim or Alawite Islam or anything Islamic about the Alawite sect.

You don't bloody need to be Muslim to understand the illogicalness of saying that every/ alim says that Alawites are infidels.

It's not illogical at all, personally I am under the opinion Shias in general are not Muslims, but the fact even the most respected and knowledgeable of Shia scholars regard the Alawites as non-Muslims should be a clear sign that they are not, they are not Christians either, and Alawites themselves do not consider themselves Muslims, the father of Hafez al-Assad even called Christians and Muslims "savages", the only thing "Islamic" about Alawites is they love Ali and to a lesser extent Muhammad, and that they tell their followers to act like Muslims, but the actual Alawite religion is a secret and people are actively discouraged from their scholars and their clergy from learning it and Alawite laymen are told to act as Christians or Muslims, but they are not.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

It's not illogical at all, personally I am under the opinion Shias in general are not Muslims, but the fact even the most respected and knowledgeable of Shia scholars regard the Alawites as non-Muslims should be a clear sign that they are not, they are not Christians either, and Alawites themselves do not consider themselves Muslims, the father of Hafez al-Assad even called Christians and Muslims "savages", the only thing "Islamic" about Alawites is they love Ali and to a lesser extent Muhammad, and that they tell their followers to act like Muslims, but the actual Alawite religion is a secret and people are actively discouraged from their scholars and their clergy from learning it and Alawite laymen are told to act as Christians or Muslims, but they are not.

Yes. We all know how dearly you cling to your pseudo-Salafi ideals, Khataiy, and how all Shia are "Rawafid", right?

Anyway, it would still be illogical to assume that all ulama have takfired them. Not only illogical but also incorrect. For instance, Amin al-Husseini's fatwa where he declared them to be Muslim.

And they do consider themselves Muslim. As the Chief Justice of Syria put it "We are Alawi Muslims. Our book is the Qur'an. Our prophet is Muhammad. The Ka`ba is our qibla, and our Dīn (religion) is Islam."

[Khataiy]

It's not illogical at all, personally I am under the opinion Shias in general are not Muslims, but the fact even the most respected and knowledgeable of Shia scholars regard the Alawites as non-Muslims should be a clear sign that they are not, they are not Christians either, and Alawites themselves do not consider themselves Muslims, the father of Hafez al-Assad even called Christians and Muslims "savages", the only thing "Islamic" about Alawites is they love Ali and to a lesser extent Muhammad, and that they tell their followers to act like Muslims, but the actual Alawite religion is a secret and people are actively discouraged from their scholars and their clergy from learning it and Alawite laymen are told to act as Christians or Muslims, but they are not.

Yes. We all know how dearly you cling to your pseudo-Salafi ideals, Khataiy, and how all Shia are "Rawafid", right?

Anyway, it would still be illogical to assume that all ulama have takfired them. Not only illogical but also incorrect. For instance, Amin al-Husseini's fatwa where he declared them to be Muslim.

While I respect the Sheikh and Mufti Haji Amin al-Husseini he is incorrect in this instance and while God knows best regarding his reasoning, it was likely out of political reasons and the culture at the time, and had he been alive today I could assure you he would be at the forefront against the Alawites given their war on the Syrian people and their alliance with Iran to vanquish the Arabs which is no different and actually worse than Israel.

[Khataiy]

It's not illogical at all, personally I am under the opinion Shias in general are not Muslims, but the fact even the most respected and knowledgeable of Shia scholars regard the Alawites as non-Muslims should be a clear sign that they are not, they are not Christians either, and Alawites themselves do not consider themselves Muslims, the father of Hafez al-Assad even called Christians and Muslims "savages", the only thing "Islamic" about Alawites is they love Ali and to a lesser extent Muhammad, and that they tell their followers to act like Muslims, but the actual Alawite religion is a secret and people are actively discouraged from their scholars and their clergy from learning it and Alawite laymen are told to act as Christians or Muslims, but they are not.

Yes. We all know how dearly you cling to your pseudo-Salafi ideals, Khataiy, and how all Shia are "Rawafid", right?

Anyway, it would still be illogical to assume that all ulama have takfired them. Not only illogical but also incorrect. For instance, Amin al-Husseini's fatwa where he declared them to be Muslim.

And they do consider themselves Muslim. As the Chief Justice of Syria put it "We are Alawi Muslims. Our book is the Qur'an. Our prophet is Muhammad. The Ka`ba is our qibla, and our Dīn (religion) is Islam."

The chief justice of Syria loyal to Bashar is not a Muslim and the fact he serves Bashar means his opinion means nothing he is worthless.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Yes. We all know how dearly you cling to your pseudo-Salafi ideals, Khataiy, and how all Shia are "Rawafid", right?

Anyway, it would still be illogical to assume that all ulama have takfired them. Not only illogical but also incorrect. For instance, Amin al-Husseini's fatwa where he declared them to be Muslim.

And they do consider themselves Muslim. As the Chief Justice of Syria put it "We are Alawi Muslims. Our book is the Qur'an. Our prophet is Muhammad. The Ka`ba is our qibla, and our Dīn (religion) is Islam."

The chief justice of Syria loyal to Bashar is not a Muslim and the fact he serves Bashar means his opinion means nothing he is worthless.

Oh Lordy. Am I going to have to break it down for you? You said "Alawites themselves do not consider themselves Muslims". An Alawite literally calling himself Muslim shows that is false.

Nice job ignoring the rest, though.

[Khataiy]

The chief justice of Syria loyal to Bashar is not a Muslim and the fact he serves Bashar means his opinion means nothing he is worthless.

Oh Lordy. Am I going to have to break it down for you? You said "Alawites themselves do not consider themselves Muslims". An Alawite literally calling himself Muslim shows that is false.

Nice job ignoring the rest, though.

Yet again I already explained that Alawites are instructed to act like Muslims, its called Taqiya

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Oh Lordy. Am I going to have to break it down for you? You said "Alawites themselves do not consider themselves Muslims". An Alawite literally calling himself Muslim shows that is false.

Nice job ignoring the rest, though.

Yet again I already explained that Alawites are instructed to act like Muslims, its called Taqiya

Lol I love it. A Muslim criticizing someone and calling them liars based on taqqiyah.

[Byzconia]

If it is "horseshit" that I do not believe I am the basis of Islamic theology than it is equally horseshit for someone who fails to comply with what is required to be a Muslim, is a Muslim.

Non sequitur.

I refuse to accept them because I myself would be an apostate for accepting them, failing to call a disbeliever a disbeliever would take you out of the fold of Islam and this is aside the fact I do not want the honor of the word Muslim to be tarnished by the filthy actions that are associated with the ones not affiliated with our religion, I do not want to be in the same boat as people that God has told would be guaranteed hellfire.

Again, you're free to believe them. However, no one else is required to share your view.

This is not my theology, these are not my rules, these are established rules of Islam,

I don't care if you say this a billion times, it still won't be true.

these are things that will take you outside of the fold of Islam:

1 – Shirk or associating others in worship with Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah forgives not (the sin of) setting up partners (in worship) with Him, but He forgives whom He wills, sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allaah, has indeed strayed far away”

[al-Nisa’ 4:116]

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode”

[al-Maa’idah 5:72]

That includes praying to the dead, seeking their help, making vows and offering sacrifices to them or to the jinn or to the grave.

2 – Whoever sets up intermediaries between himself and Allaah, asks them to intercede, and puts his trust in them, is a kaafir according to scholarly consensus.

3 – Whoever does not regard the mushrikeen as kaafirs, or doubts that they are kaafirs, or regards their way as correct, is a kaafir.

4 – Whoever believes that anything other than the teaching of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is more complete than his teachings, or that the rulings of anyone else are better than his rulings – such as those who prefer the rule of false laws to his rulings – is a kaafir.

5 – Whoever hates any part of that which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) brought, even if he acts in accordance with it, is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“That is because they hate that which Allaah has sent down (this Qur’aan and Islamic laws); so He has made their deeds fruitless”

[Muhammad 47:9]

6 – Whoever makes fun of anything in the religion of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or makes fun of any texts that refer to rewards or punishments, is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:65-66]

7 – Sihr (witchcraft) – including spells to turn one person against another or to make someone love another. Whoever does this or approves of it is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) till they had said, ‘We are for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:102]

8 – Supporting the mushrikeen and helping them against the Muslims. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”

[al-Maa'idah 5:51]

9 – Whoever believes that some people are allowed to operate outside the law of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) just as al-Khidr operated outside the law of Moosa (peace be upon him) is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

10 – Turning away from the religion of Allaah, not learning it and not acting in accordance with it. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of his Lord, then turns aside therefrom? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the Mujrimoon (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners)”

[al-Sajdah 32:22]

Ooh, look, a bunch of cherry-picked sayings that other Muslims could just as easily accuse you of if they disagreed with your theology. Look, I'm getting real sick of repeating myself, so I'll say it one last time and just be ignoring this kind of shit from here on: your interpretation of Islam is not the only legitimate one. I don't care how "true" you think you're being to scripture, your interpretation isn't worth more than anyone else's.

I did not write a word of this, and this can be found here this was written by a scholar of Islam something I am not and you certainly are not either, so it is really absurd to try to educate me on my own religion when you aren't even a Muslim.

Courtier's reply fallacy.

[Khataiy]

Yet again I already explained that Alawites are instructed to act like Muslims, its called Taqiya

Lol I love it. A Muslim criticizing someone and calling them liars based on taqqiyah.

Bashar al-Assad and his entire government is full of liars they are filth this moron claims to be "anti-America" yet deployed the Syrian "Arab" Army to attack Iraq, this animal denies using chemical weapons on his own people as part of his sectarian and racist war on Arab Muslims, he claims he hates Israel yet Netanyahu openly says "We have no issues with President Assad", in 2012 or 2013 the "Sunni" Grand Mufti of Syria said Syria would deployed suicide bombers to America after Obama said using chemical weapons was a red line and America would bomb Syria (but Obama was another liar) yet Trump has bombed Syria multiple times and we are yet to see Bashar's suicide bombers in America his regime is a joke everything they say is false and they are a bunch of liars and drama queens.

[Byzconia]

Yet again I already explained that Alawites are instructed to act like Muslims, its called Taqiya

Lol I love it. A Muslim criticizing someone and calling them liars based on taqqiyah.

Honestly, this is a massive waste of time. Khataiy has absolutely no interest in learning about other people's ideas. His interpretation of Islam is the only correct one and everyone who disagrees with him is automatically wrong and "not a Real Muslim." You can't reason with someone who has no interest in reason.

[North German Realm]

Yet again I already explained that Alawites are instructed to act like Muslims, its called Taqiya

Lol I love it. A Muslim criticizing someone and calling them liars based on taqqiyah.

"They can't do Taqiyya! Only we can do taqiyya!"

[Khataiy]

If it is "horseshit" that I do not believe I am the basis of Islamic theology than it is equally horseshit for someone who fails to comply with what is required to be a Muslim, is a Muslim.

Non sequitur.

I refuse to accept them because I myself would be an apostate for accepting them, failing to call a disbeliever a disbeliever would take you out of the fold of Islam and this is aside the fact I do not want the honor of the word Muslim to be tarnished by the filthy actions that are associated with the ones not affiliated with our religion, I do not want to be in the same boat as people that God has told would be guaranteed hellfire.

Again, you're free to believe them. However, no one else is required to share your view.

This is not my theology, these are not my rules, these are established rules of Islam,

I don't care if you say this a billion times, it still won't be true.

these are things that will take you outside of the fold of Islam:

1 – Shirk or associating others in worship with Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Verily, Allaah forgives not (the sin of) setting up partners (in worship) with Him, but He forgives whom He wills, sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allaah, has indeed strayed far away”

[al-Nisa’ 4:116]

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode”

[al-Maa’idah 5:72]

That includes praying to the dead, seeking their help, making vows and offering sacrifices to them or to the jinn or to the grave.

2 – Whoever sets up intermediaries between himself and Allaah, asks them to intercede, and puts his trust in them, is a kaafir according to scholarly consensus.

3 – Whoever does not regard the mushrikeen as kaafirs, or doubts that they are kaafirs, or regards their way as correct, is a kaafir.

4 – Whoever believes that anything other than the teaching of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is more complete than his teachings, or that the rulings of anyone else are better than his rulings – such as those who prefer the rule of false laws to his rulings – is a kaafir.

5 – Whoever hates any part of that which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) brought, even if he acts in accordance with it, is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“That is because they hate that which Allaah has sent down (this Qur’aan and Islamic laws); so He has made their deeds fruitless”

[Muhammad 47:9]

6 – Whoever makes fun of anything in the religion of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or makes fun of any texts that refer to rewards or punishments, is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“Say: Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:65-66]

7 – Sihr (witchcraft) – including spells to turn one person against another or to make someone love another. Whoever does this or approves of it is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) till they had said, ‘We are for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:102]

8 – Supporting the mushrikeen and helping them against the Muslims. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”

[al-Maa'idah 5:51]

9 – Whoever believes that some people are allowed to operate outside the law of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) just as al-Khidr operated outside the law of Moosa (peace be upon him) is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]

10 – Turning away from the religion of Allaah, not learning it and not acting in accordance with it. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):

“And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of his Lord, then turns aside therefrom? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the Mujrimoon (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners)”

[al-Sajdah 32:22]

Ooh, look, a bunch of cherry-picked sayings that other Muslims could just as easily accuse you of if they disagreed with your theology. Look, I'm getting real sick of repeating myself, so I'll say it one last time and just be ignoring this kind of shit from here on: your interpretation of Islam is not the only legitimate one. I don't care how "true" you think you're being to scripture, your interpretation isn't worth more than anyone else's.

I did not write a word of this, and this can be found here this was written by a scholar of Islam something I am not and you certainly are not either, so it is really absurd to try to educate me on my own religion when you aren't even a Muslim.

Courtier's reply fallacy.

"fallacy fallacy" that's not an argument that's just you choosing not to accept what I am saying I have provided evidence and so on I could quote hundreds of scholars for you if you would like for the 10 nullifiers of Islam, and yes you are right someone could accuse me of those things and it has happened before it's something that is unfortunately pretty regular for Muslims to accuse each other of being an apostate for the above reasons but God does know best the fact of the matter remains Alawites are not Muslims and this is a unanimous agreement.

[Khataiy]

Lol I love it. A Muslim criticizing someone and calling them liars based on taqqiyah.

"They can't do Taqiyya! Only we can do taqiyya!"

No one can do Taqiyya it's not allowed in Islam

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Lol I love it. A Muslim criticizing someone and calling them liars based on taqqiyah.

Bashar al-Assad and his entire government is full of liars they are filth this moron claims to be "anti-America" yet deployed the Syrian "Arab" Army to attack Iraq, this animal denies using chemical weapons on his own people as part of his sectarian and racist war on Arab Muslims, he claims he hates Israel yet Netanyahu openly says "We have no issues with President Assad", in 2012 or 2013 the "Sunni" Grand Mufti of Syria said Syria would deployed suicide bombers to America after Obama said using chemical weapons was a red line and America would bomb Syria (but Obama was another liar) yet Trump has bombed Syria multiple times and we are yet to see Bashar's suicide bombers in America his regime is a joke everything they say is false and they are a bunch of liars and drama queens.

Yo. That literally has nothing to do with the conversation. Look, I get you want to spout a Saudi platform as much as possible and hate on Syria and Iran but at least try to stay on topic. Take it to the Middle East conflict thread if you really want.

[Khataiy]

Lol I love it. A Muslim criticizing someone and calling them liars based on taqqiyah.

Honestly, this is a massive waste of time. Khataiy has absolutely no interest in learning about other people's ideas. His interpretation of Islam is the only correct one and everyone who disagrees with him is automatically wrong and "not a Real Muslim." You can't reason with someone who has no interest in reason.

Oh now you're calling me a waste of time, but when I tell you that it's me being ignorant and a narrow minded jerk right?

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Honestly, this is a massive waste of time. Khataiy has absolutely no interest in learning about other people's ideas. His interpretation of Islam is the only correct one and everyone who disagrees with him is automatically wrong and "not a Real Muslim." You can't reason with someone who has no interest in reason.

Oh now you're calling me a waste of time, but when I tell you that it's me being ignorant and a narrow minded jerk right?

If you think he has broken a rule and attacked you personally or some such, go report it. Don't whine about it here.

[Khataiy]

Oh now you're calling me a waste of time, but when I tell you that it's me being ignorant and a narrow minded jerk right?

If you think he has broken a rule and attacked you personally or some such, go report it. Don't whine about it here.

I do not think he broke a rule it's just I told him replying to him was a waste of time and he posted a rant about it now ironically he is saying talking to me is a waste of time.

[Byzconia]

"fallacy fallacy" that's not an argument

To make an argument would require me to have something to argue against. The purpose of pointing out logical fallacies is so I don't have to waste my time "arguing" against thinks that don't make any goddamned sense. Fallacy means "fault in logic." Your "arguments" are illogical, therefore I don't have to answer them.

that's just you choosing not to accept what I am saying I have provided evidence

Quotemining scholars isn't "evidence" of anything. Like I said, every single one of those quotes was so general that they would easily encompass most of the people you're claiming "aren't Muslims."

and so on I could quote hundreds of scholars for you if you would like for the 10 nullifiers of Islam,

And none of it would matter, because Quranic scholars aren't considered particularly special by Sunni Islam. You're literally acting like "scholars" are the equivalent of Shi'ite Imams (who actually do authority to interpret the Quran), when they're literally just people who've read the Quran a lot. I don't give a shit how much someone studies the Quran, they don't have any "special" insights beyond personal interpretation.

and yes you are right someone could accuse me of those things and it has happened before it's something that is unfortunately pretty regular for Muslims to accuse each other of being an apostate for the above reasons but God does know best the fact of the matter remains Alawites are not Muslims and this is a unanimous agreement.

>Says it's "unfortunately regular for Muslims to accuse each other of being an apostate"
>Immediately accuses other Muslims of not being Muslims

Do you not read your own posts before you hit "Submit"?

[Byzconia]

Honestly, this is a massive waste of time. Khataiy has absolutely no interest in learning about other people's ideas. His interpretation of Islam is the only correct one and everyone who disagrees with him is automatically wrong and "not a Real Muslim." You can't reason with someone who has no interest in reason.

Oh now you're calling me a waste of time, but when I tell you that it's me being ignorant and a narrow minded jerk right?

False equivocation.

[Byzconia]

If you think he has broken a rule and attacked you personally or some such, go report it. Don't whine about it here.

I do not think he broke a rule it's just I told him replying to him was a waste of time and he posted a rant about it now ironically he is saying talking to me is a waste of time.

Because you're really pissing me the fuck off. This is literally more painful than if I just bashed my head against a wall. Repeatedly. For hours.

Your arguments have all been non sequiturs and logical fallacies and when people point that out to you, you double-down and just keep repeating the same rehearsed talking points over and over again. You have absolutely zero interest in hearing what anyone else has to say and I'm fucking sick of it.

[Khataiy]

"fallacy fallacy" that's not an argument

To make an argument would require me to have something to argue against. The purpose of pointing out logical fallacies is so I don't have to waste my time "arguing" against thinks that don't make any goddamned sense. Fallacy means "fault in logic." Your "arguments" are illogical, therefore I don't have to answer them.

that's just you choosing not to accept what I am saying I have provided evidence

Quotemining scholars isn't "evidence" of anything. Like I said, every single one of those quotes was so general that they would easily encompass most of the people you're claiming "aren't Muslims."

and so on I could quote hundreds of scholars for you if you would like for the 10 nullifiers of Islam,

And none of it would matter, because Quranic scholars aren't considered particularly special by Sunni Islam. You're literally acting like "scholars" are the equivalent of Shi'ite Imams (who actually do authority to interpret the Quran), when they're literally just people who've read the Quran a lot. I don't give a shit how much someone studies the Quran, they don't have any "special" insights beyond personal interpretation.

and yes you are right someone could accuse me of those things and it has happened before it's something that is unfortunately pretty regular for Muslims to accuse each other of being an apostate for the above reasons but God does know best the fact of the matter remains Alawites are not Muslims and this is a unanimous agreement.

>Says it's "unfortunately regular for Muslims to accuse each other of being an apostate"
>Immediately accuses other Muslims of not being Muslims

Do you not read your own posts before you hit "Submit"?

Well it's good to know I can google some "fallacies" and call everyone I don't like for alleged fallacies just because I don't want to address/admit to things I am wrong about, but anyway Shiite Imams, the 12 Shiite Imams in Shiism according to Shias are equal to Prophets aside from Muhammad they hold Ali, Hussein, Hasan and so on as equal to Moses and Jesus the fact someone (actually multiple) that Shias consider equal to Moses or Abraham says the founder of the Alawite sect is an apostate should say a lot, the fact his own teacher labeled him an apostate should say even more.

[The Emerald Legion]

I do not think he broke a rule it's just I told him replying to him was a waste of time and he posted a rant about it now ironically he is saying talking to me is a waste of time.

Because you're really pissing me the fuck off. This is literally more painful than if I just bashed my head against a wall. Repeatedly. For hours.

Your arguments have all been non sequiturs and logical fallacies and when people point that out to you, you double-down and just keep repeating the same rehearsed talking points over and over again. You have absolutely zero interest in hearing what anyone else has to say and I'm fucking sick of it.

Not that I'm particularly Keen to defend him... But turn that around.

In no way was his massive post about the bizarre and Byzantine laws of Islam "claiming you lacked the knowledge to have an opinion while providing no reason why." Not to mention your own source doesn't even say the Courtiers reply fallacy even exists.

He provided ten reasons why. With text quotes to back it up. Are you convinced by those? Apparently not, but you can hardly dismiss them as fallacious.

Stop projecting your own stubbornness onto them.

[Minzerland II]

So, traditionalists, social conservatives, fascists, and alt-rightists of NSG. Instead of the virgin Christianity, why not the chad Islam?

Because Christianity is the Truth. The future is certain: the Church shall prevail till the end, in squalor or prosperity but always in glory, and Christ will come again. Christians will worry, indeed, but they should remember God’s providence and assurance. Christianity was not on top for many centuries (I’d bargain never) and that this century, nor the next, nor the one after that, will be any different until the end of time.

The Bl. John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote:

But in truth the whole course of Christianity from the first, when we come to examine it, is but one series of troubles and disorders. Every century is like every other and to those who live in it seems worse than all times before it. The Church is ever ailing, and lingers on in weakness, “always bearing about in the body the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in her body.” Religion seems ever expiring, schisms dominant, the light of Truth dim, its adherents scattered. The cause of Christ is ever in its last agony, as though it were but a question of time whether it fails finally this day or another. The Saints are ever all but failing from the earth, and Christ all but coming; and thus the Day of Judgement is literally ever at hand; and it is our duty ever to be looking out for it, not disappointed that we have so often said, “now is the moment”, and that at the last, contrary to our expectation, Truth has somewhat rallied. Such is God’s will, gathering in His elect, first one and then another, by little and little, in the intervals of sunshine between storm and storm, or snatching them from the surge of evil, even when the waters rage most furiously. Well may prophets cry out, “How long will it be, O Lord, to the end of these wonders?” how long will this mystery proceed? how long will this perishing world be sustained by feeble lights which struggle for existence in its unhealthy atmosphere? God alone knows the day and the hour when that will at length be, which He is ever threatening; meanwhile, thus much of comfort do we gain from what has been hitherto, —— not to despond, not to be dismayed, not to be anxious, at the troubles which encompass us. They have ever been; they ever shall be; they are our portion. “The floods are risen, the floods lift up their voice, the floods lift up their waves. The waves of the sea are mighty, and rage horribly; but yet the Lord, who dwelleth on high, is mightier.”

[Solar Iran]

If you think the only way to entrench conservative values is by adopting a new religion, you're not very creative.

Conservatism can be atheistic. Islam can be liberal - Mu'tazila and Sufism are but two examples - and the culture that currently dominates the Middle East is merely a very fundamentalist form of Islam.