Islam, the future of social conservatism?

[Mystic Warriors]

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians—whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

Just going to leave this here.

[Byzconia]

Oh? So, Islam prohibits the homophobia and persecution of non-Abrahamic religious minorities?

Though, you may not even see those as wrong. Wouldn't be surprised.

The way you word it makes it sound like they are wrong, but the truth of the matter is no I do not support homosexuality or paganism because God has made it for men to be with women and for women to be with men it's natural its basic biology

A) Homosexuality is natural. It "occurs in nature"--that's literally what it means to be "natural." Guess what's not natural? An all-seeing, all-knowing metaphysical being that exists outside the laws of space and time.
B) Even if it weren't natural, this is an appeal to nature fallacy. "Natural" =/= good, "unnatural" =/= bad.

you don't even need to be a Muslim or religious person to understand why homosexuality is wrong its evident by the fact that diseases like AIDS and HIV affect homosexuals more than any other group even though some heterosexuals contract it,

I actually don't know if this is true or not, but even if we assume it is, this is concern-trolling. I'm pretty sure gay people know the risks of sexual intercourse, just like every other sexually active person. If they choose to engage in it, that's their decision. Adults (gay or otherwise) do not need you to handhold them and tell them how to live their lvies.

it will never effect heterosexuals like homosexuals, but even then in spirit of this thread do understand that in the bible it says: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." So you could actually word this "So Christianity prohibits homophobia and persecution of non-Christians?"

Tu ququo fallacy. Christianity most certainly has a shitty attitude towards homosexuals and non-Christians. That doesn't absolve Islam of its own problems.

Because you are also neglecting to note unlike Islam Christianity does not tolerate any other religion not even Jews or Muslims are safe according to pure Christianity

Not sure what "pure Christianity" is, but last I checked, Jesus was pretty big on "love thy neighbor" and "turn the other cheek." "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Dude seems pretty chill to me--at least compared to Mohammed, who was a military leader and personally killed a lot of people.

because salvation only exists through belief in Jesus everyone else is scum.

Not entirely accurate.

[Byzconia]

That is not how Christian thought on the matter works.

Well no because Christians do not actually practice Christianity according to the bible or Jesus for that matter

The Bible doesn't say "everyone is scum." The whole point of Jesus's crucifixion was that he loved humanity and willingly offered himself up as a sacrifice to atone for humanity's sins.

(I don't believe in Christian theology, myself, but the things you're saying about it are just abjectly wrong.)

[Byzconia]

Oh? So, Islam prohibits the homophobia and persecution of non-Abrahamic religious minorities?

Though, you may not even see those as wrong. Wouldn't be surprised.

It protects non muslims yes.

It protects monotheists. Polytheists and atheists get left in the lurch.

[Byzconia]

Ah, that moment when we manipulate semantics to still be completely wrong. A Muslim is someone who believes in Islam as truth, despite how many Scotsmen you insist aren’t Scottish while trying t’take the Englishmen as your own.

They did believe in Islam as the truth because their message is no different than that of Islam, God called them Muslims and I follow God not your logic.

"Pfft, who needs logic when the invisible being in the sky tells me how to think!?"

[North German Realm]

It protects non muslims yes.

It protects monotheists. Polytheists and atheists get left in the lurch.

Doesn't even protect all non-Muslims. Jews certainly didn't have a good life under Islam. Neither did the non-native (i.e. Early Catholic or Orthodox) Christians. Baha'is certainly don't.

[Byzconia]

Y'all we're getting more into IDT territory.

The mods have said nothing so far. Regardless, so what? This thread is about whether Islam could become a new vehicle for social conservatism in the West. While the arch of the topic has admittedly skewed a bit, the point of the discussion remains--Islam has many aspects (both theological and practical) that most Westerners would be opposed to, hence, disagreement with the OP (i.e. relevant).

[Khataiy]

First and foremost in Islam the concept of Takfeer exists you being a non-Muslim it is understandable why you wouldn't comprehend this concept, and it is extremely complex and heavily discussed and debated by even the most refined and knowledgeable of Islamic scholars and we as Muslims as a whole have been warned not to deal with it lightly, but there are set conditions for what considers one a Muslim and this is called the fold of Islam and if actions are taken that breach it you are considered outside the fold of Islam and are no longer considered a Muslim no matter how much you may claim to be, but ultimately God knows best who is and who isn't Muslim.

And you can find plenty of similar concepts in every other religion. There are plenty of Christian sects that basically define "Christianity" as "everything we believe and nothing we don't believe." Again, the fact that you disagree with other Muslims' interpretations of Islam does not make your interpretation "right."

Secondly you clearly did not understand what I wrote, and I remain in my stance that no conflict in the Middle East today can be blamed on Islam for numerous reasons

What you wrote was, and remains, a No True Scotsman fallacy. You're trying to pawn off crimes committed in the name of Islam as "Not Real Islam"--just like when Christians say the Crusaders "weren't Real Christians." And in the end it's all completely pointless, because it's not your responsibility to come up with excuses for other people's shitty behavior. If you disagree with it, simply disagree with it--nothing else is necessary.

such as the case of Syria, Bashar al-Assad is not a Muslim

While I have no idea whether Assad is particularly devout, he identifies as an Alawite Muslim, and I see no reason to disbelieve him.

and he initiated the war against the people who are Muslims

Which is irrelevant.

the only thing that Islam has to do with the Syrian war is that it is the Muslims are the victims of the savagery of Bashar al-Assad because he hates Islam and Muslims,

I'm pretty sure Assad hates everyone. Regardless, he retains support amongst Alawite and Shi'ite Syrians (mostly because they're afraid of what would happen if the Sunni majority took power over the secular Assad--a legitimate fear, to be sure).

likewise in Iraq Iran has occupied the country and dominated it and has targeted Muslims with sectarian death squads that also operate in Syria and go back and fourth and take orders from Tehran because Iran is wagging war on Islam to replace it their cult.

Iran are Shi'ites. Sunnis and Shi'ites have been fighting each other for literally centuries. Again, this dispute is no different from the Catholic and Orthodox Christian Churches declaring each other to not be True Christians in the aftermath of the Schism.

The conflict between the Arabs and Kurds and Turks which is a major conflict has absolutely nothing to do with Islam,

No one said it did. You're the one who seems to think that we think that every single conflict in the Middle East is over religion. No one here has said that.

and it is purely an ethnic conflict which is not unique to the middle east or Islamic nations, the war in Afghanistan also has several ethnic undertones to it and this is aside the fact that Afghanistan was invaded by a non-Muslim country causing a majority of the issues we see there today, in Burma you cannot blame Islam for the suffering of the Rohingya, likewise in Bosnia you cannot blame Islam for the genocide that occurred there, nor can you blame Islam for the suffering of the Uyghur people of China.

Why would anyone "blame Islam" for non-Muslims persecuting Muslims? This entire sentence makes no logical sense.

Islam in its true sense does prohibit everything that is wrong in the region today.

And you're free to believe that. Doesn't mean it's true.

There are so many things wrong with what you just wrote its not even worth my time addressing because of how ill-informed and wrong all of it is, it's beyond rudimentary the basic facts that are being written off and blatantly ignored.

[Byzconia]

It protects monotheists. Polytheists and atheists get left in the lurch.

Doesn't even protect all non-Muslims. Jews certainly didn't have a good life under Islam. Neither did the non-native (i.e. Early Catholic or Orthodox) Christians. Baha'is certainly don't.

Theologically, it does establish protections for Christians and Jews. In practice, it depended on where you lived and when (Fatimid Egypt and Moorish Spain were pretty decent for the most part--Seljuk Jerusalem, not so much). And you're right, I actually completely forgot about the Bahai'is. They really are getting a pretty shit deal in Iran (as do Zoroastrians, though they're "officially" protected). And a lot of Middle Eastern countries just straight up execute atheists (as well as apostates).

[Byzconia]

And you can find plenty of similar concepts in every other religion. There are plenty of Christian sects that basically define "Christianity" as "everything we believe and nothing we don't believe." Again, the fact that you disagree with other Muslims' interpretations of Islam does not make your interpretation "right."



What you wrote was, and remains, a No True Scotsman fallacy. You're trying to pawn off crimes committed in the name of Islam as "Not Real Islam"--just like when Christians say the Crusaders "weren't Real Christians." And in the end it's all completely pointless, because it's not your responsibility to come up with excuses for other people's shitty behavior. If you disagree with it, simply disagree with it--nothing else is necessary.



While I have no idea whether Assad is particularly devout, he identifies as an Alawite Muslim, and I see no reason to disbelieve him.



Which is irrelevant.



I'm pretty sure Assad hates everyone. Regardless, he retains support amongst Alawite and Shi'ite Syrians (mostly because they're afraid of what would happen if the Sunni majority took power over the secular Assad--a legitimate fear, to be sure).



Iran are Shi'ites. Sunnis and Shi'ites have been fighting each other for literally centuries. Again, this dispute is no different from the Catholic and Orthodox Christian Churches declaring each other to not be True Christians in the aftermath of the Schism.



No one said it did. You're the one who seems to think that we think that every single conflict in the Middle East is over religion. No one here has said that.



Why would anyone "blame Islam" for non-Muslims persecuting Muslims? This entire sentence makes no logical sense.



And you're free to believe that. Doesn't mean it's true.

There are so many things wrong with what you just wrote its not even worth my time addressing because of how ill-informed and wrong all of it is, it's beyond rudimentary the basic facts that are being written off and blatantly ignored.

"I have no good argument for what you've said, so I'm just going to call it wrong." This is not how debate works. Try again.

[North German Realm]

-snip

There are so many things wrong with what you just wrote its not even worth my time addressing because of how ill-informed and wrong all of it is, it's beyond rudimentary the basic facts that are being written off and blatantly ignored.

Everything he said was correct tho.

[Khataiy]

There are so many things wrong with what you just wrote its not even worth my time addressing because of how ill-informed and wrong all of it is, it's beyond rudimentary the basic facts that are being written off and blatantly ignored.

"I have no good argument for what you've said, so I'm just going to call it wrong." This is not how debate works. Try again.

No I could completely rebuke everything you wrote, but it would be a waste of time seeing how wrong everything you wrote is, the very fact you said "While I have no idea whether Assad is particularly devout, he identifies as an Alawite Muslim, and I see no reason to disbelieve him." Takes any value in discussion it with you and makes it null this shows a very serious lack of knowledge in Islam, its history and background as there is no such thing as an "Alawite Muslim" its an oxymoron to even say that because Alawites themselves do not even consider themselves Muslims and they have been unanimously declared as non-Muslims there is nothing Islamic about the Alawite sect they literally celebrate Christmas, Easter and Palm Sunday.

[Khataiy]

Doesn't even protect all non-Muslims. Jews certainly didn't have a good life under Islam. Neither did the non-native (i.e. Early Catholic or Orthodox) Christians. Baha'is certainly don't.

Theologically, it does establish protections for Christians and Jews. In practice, it depended on where you lived and when (Fatimid Egypt and Moorish Spain were pretty decent for the most part--Seljuk Jerusalem, not so much). And you're right, I actually completely forgot about the Bahai'is. They really are getting a pretty shit deal in Iran (as do Zoroastrians, though they're "officially" protected). And a lot of Middle Eastern countries just straight up execute atheists (as well as apostates).

Bahais are not subject to protection under Islamic law only Christians, Jews and Sabians are, and they never will be.

[North German Realm]

No I could completely rebuke everything you wrote, but it would be a waste of time seeing how wrong everything you wrote is, the very fact you said "While I have no idea whether Assad is particularly devout, he identifies as an Alawite Muslim, and I see no reason to disbelieve him." Takes any value in discussion it with you and makes it null this shows a very serious lack of knowledge in Islam, its history and background as there is no such thing as an "Alawite Muslim" its an oxymoron to even say that because Alawites themselves do not even consider themselves Muslims and they have been unanimously declared as non-Muslims there is nothing Islamic about the Alawite sect they literally celebrate Christmas, Easter and Palm Sunday.

There's no such thing as a "unanimous declaration" about Alawites tho.

[Khataiy]

No I could completely rebuke everything you wrote, but it would be a waste of time seeing how wrong everything you wrote is, the very fact you said "While I have no idea whether Assad is particularly devout, he identifies as an Alawite Muslim, and I see no reason to disbelieve him." Takes any value in discussion it with you and makes it null this shows a very serious lack of knowledge in Islam, its history and background as there is no such thing as an "Alawite Muslim" its an oxymoron to even say that because Alawites themselves do not even consider themselves Muslims and they have been unanimously declared as non-Muslims there is nothing Islamic about the Alawite sect they literally celebrate Christmas, Easter and Palm Sunday.

There's no such thing as a "unanimous declaration" about Alawites tho.

Wow a non-Muslim trying to educate me on the consensus of the Uleama and every Shari'i ruling from Ibn Taymiyya the Sheikh of Islam and Ibn Qiyyam regarding them, and every ruling from every Shia scholar on this earth that is studied and revered and every Shia Imam that has literally ever lived since the inception of the Alawite cult, Ibn Nusayr was declared a disbeliever by his own teacher who was among the 12 Shia Imams there is no such thing as an Alawite Muslim or Alawite Islam or anything Islamic about the Alawite sect.

[Byzconia]

No I could completely rebuke everything you wrote, but it would be a waste of time seeing how wrong everything you wrote is,

Lol this is hilarious. "I'd totally rebuke everything you wrote, but it's just so wrong I don't even need to waste my time!" This is literally something a sitcom teenager would say lmao.

the very fact you said "While I have no idea whether Assad is particularly devout, he identifies as an Alawite Muslim, and I see no reason to disbelieve him." Takes any value in discussion it with you and makes it null

Going "I disagree with you, so that makes you wrong" is not argument.

this shows a very serious lack of knowledge in Islam,

No, it just shows that your definition of Islam isn't the only legitimate one.

its history and background as there is no such thing as an "Alawite Muslim" its an oxymoron to even say that because Alawites themselves do not even consider themselves Muslims

Literally a five-second Google search: "The Alawis, also rendered as Alawites (Arabic: علوية‎ Alawīyah), are a sect of the Ghulat branch of Shia Islam, primarily centred in Syria. The eponymously-named Alawites revere Ali (Ali ibn Abi Talib), considered the first Imam of the Twelver school." (emphasis mine)

and they have been unanimously declared as non-Muslims

I didn't realize there was a Global Muslim Council where all Muslims come together and vote on who is or isn't a Muslim.

there is nothing Islamic about the Alawite sect they literally celebrate Christmas, Easter and Palm Sunday.

"Since they don't practice Islam exactly like I think they should, they're not Real Muslims." How do you not see how bigoted and close-minded this is?

[Khataiy]

Lol this is hilarious. "I'd totally rebuke everything you wrote, but it's just so wrong I don't even need to waste my time!" This is literally something a sitcom teenager would say lmao.



Going "I disagree with you, so that makes you wrong" is not argument.



No, it just shows that your definition of Islam isn't the only legitimate one.



Literally a five-second Google search: "The Alawis, also rendered as Alawites (Arabic: علوية‎ Alawīyah), are a sect of the Ghulat branch of Shia Islam, primarily centred in Syria. The eponymously-named Alawites revere Ali (Ali ibn Abi Talib), considered the first Imam of the Twelver school." (emphasis mine)



I didn't realize there was a Global Muslim Council where all Muslims come together and vote on who is or isn't a Muslim.

"Since they don't practice Islam exactly like I think they should, they're not Real Muslims." How do you not see how bigoted and close-minded this is?

If someone told you an orange was an apple because it was a fruit what would you tell him? If an atheist told you he believed in god what would you tell him? If a Communist told you he believed in private property and free markets what would you tell him?

[Byzconia]

Theologically, it does establish protections for Christians and Jews. In practice, it depended on where you lived and when (Fatimid Egypt and Moorish Spain were pretty decent for the most part--Seljuk Jerusalem, not so much). And you're right, I actually completely forgot about the Bahai'is. They really are getting a pretty shit deal in Iran (as do Zoroastrians, though they're "officially" protected). And a lot of Middle Eastern countries just straight up execute atheists (as well as apostates).

Bahais are not subject to protection under Islamic law only Christians, Jews and Sabians are, and they never will be.

I was referring to Iranian law, not Islamic law. Also, why? "It's okay to discriminate against these religious groups, but not these religious groups." This is completely arbitrary.

[Khataiy]

No I could completely rebuke everything you wrote, but it would be a waste of time seeing how wrong everything you wrote is,

Lol this is hilarious. "I'd totally rebuke everything you wrote, but it's just so wrong I don't even need to waste my time!" This is literally something a sitcom teenager would say lmao.

the very fact you said "While I have no idea whether Assad is particularly devout, he identifies as an Alawite Muslim, and I see no reason to disbelieve him." Takes any value in discussion it with you and makes it null

Going "I disagree with you, so that makes you wrong" is not argument.

this shows a very serious lack of knowledge in Islam,

No, it just shows that your definition of Islam isn't the only legitimate one.

its history and background as there is no such thing as an "Alawite Muslim" its an oxymoron to even say that because Alawites themselves do not even consider themselves Muslims

Literally a five-second Google search: "The Alawis, also rendered as Alawites (Arabic: علوية‎ Alawīyah), are a sect of the Ghulat branch of Shia Islam, primarily centred in Syria. The eponymously-named Alawites revere Ali (Ali ibn Abi Talib), considered the first Imam of the Twelver school." (emphasis mine)

and they have been unanimously declared as non-Muslims

I didn't realize there was a Global Muslim Council where all Muslims come together and vote on who is or isn't a Muslim.

there is nothing Islamic about the Alawite sect they literally celebrate Christmas, Easter and Palm Sunday.

"Since they don't practice Islam exactly like I think they should, they're not Real Muslims." How do you not see how bigoted and close-minded this is?

Ghulat in Shiia theology literally means they are not to be considered Muslims because of their extreme views

[Khataiy]

Bahais are not subject to protection under Islamic law only Christians, Jews and Sabians are, and they never will be.

I was referring to Iranian law, not Islamic law. Also, why? "It's okay to discriminate against these religious groups, but not these religious groups." This is completely arbitrary.

It's not arbitrary because God told us that Christians, Jews and Sabians are fine, the problem Islamically with Bahais is they believe in a Prophet after Muhammad and this is forbidden because Muhammad is the final prophet, Iranians hate Bahais more so than others however because Bahaias like Alawites are an offshoot cult from Shiism, they are Shiite apostates.

[Byzconia]

"Since they don't practice Islam exactly like I think they should, they're not Real Muslims." How do you not see how bigoted and close-minded this is?

If someone told you an orange was an apple because it was a fruit what would you tell him? If an atheist told you he believed in god what would you tell him? If a Communist told you he believed in private property and free markets what would you tell him?

Except those analogies don't work, because those are objective things. First off, fruits are a terrible analogy because those are physical objects, not belief systems. Secondly, atheism is a terrible analogy because it's not a belief system, either (it's a label used to describe people who lack a specific belief--belief in gods). Communism works, as it is a belief system. Except the analogy still fails because there are communists who believe in those things. Pierre Proudhon literally described his philosophy as "the synthesis of communism and property." Max Stirner, the father of anarcho-individualism, advocated for a communist society that had both private property and markets. The only thing all Communists objectively believe in is the idea of a stateless society, whether now or in the future. Everything else is just personal preference.

Likewise, the only thing all Muslims objectively believe is that there is one God and Mohammed is his last and greatest prophet. Everything else is just personal preference. For the 8 billionth time, your personal beliefs are not the standard by which other Muslims are measured.

[Byzconia]

I was referring to Iranian law, not Islamic law. Also, why? "It's okay to discriminate against these religious groups, but not these religious groups." This is completely arbitrary.

It's not arbitrary because God told us that Christians, Jews and Sabians are fine,

And what is the basis of God's decision? What logical reason does he have to discriminate? If it's just "because I said so," then that's the very definition of arbitrary.

the problem Islamically with Bahais is they believe in a Prophet after Muhammad and this is forbidden because Muhammad is the final prophet, Iranians hate Bahais more so than others however because Bahaias like Alawites are an offshoot cult from Shiism, they are Shiite apostates.

Which still doesn't justify persecution of them.

[Khataiy]

If someone told you an orange was an apple because it was a fruit what would you tell him? If an atheist told you he believed in god what would you tell him? If a Communist told you he believed in private property and free markets what would you tell him?

Except those analogies don't work, because those are objective things. First off, fruits are a terrible analogy because those are physical objects, not belief systems. Secondly, atheism is a terrible analogy because it's not a belief system, either (it's a label used to describe people who lack a specific belief--belief in gods). Communism works, as it is a belief system. Except the analogy still fails because there are communists who believe in those things. Pierre Proudhon literally described his philosophy as "the synthesis of communism and property." Max Stirner, the father of anarcho-individualism, advocated for a communist society that had both private property and markets. The only thing all Communists objectively believe in is the idea of a stateless society, whether now or in the future. Everything else is just personal preference.

Likewise, the only thing all Muslims objectively believe is that there is one God and Mohammed is his last and greatest prophet. Everything else is just personal preference. For the 8 billionth time, your personal beliefs are not the standard by which other Muslims are measured.

My examples work beautiful you just don't want to accept that not every one who runs around saying "I'm Muslim" is Muslims for what I only assume is personal reasons, but this is not how Islam works we have a set of rules you must follow to be a Muslim otherwise you are not one and its that simple.

No my personal beliefs are not the guidance of Islam nor am I the epicenter of Islamic theology no one is, God will judge us as individuals not as a whole and that is the entire point of Islam to strive for excellence and perfection and call others to it.

[Byzconia]

My examples work beautiful you just don't want to accept that

Ah, yes, the Trump method of argument. "I have the best examples. The greatest examples. You're only disagreeing with them because you can't understand my intelligence. I'm a very intelligent man."

not every one who runs around saying "I'm Muslim" is Muslims for what I only assume is personal reasons,

but this is not how Islam works we have a set of rules you must follow to be a Muslim otherwise you are not one and its that simple.

And those rules vary from sect to sect.

No my personal beliefs are not the guidance of Islam nor am I the epicenter of Islamic theology no one is,

Horseshit. You clearly think your version of Islam is the only "right" one--hence why you refuse to acknowledge that anyone who disagrees with your specific theology could be a "Real Muslim." Narrowmindedness. Pure and simple.

God will judge us as individuals not as a whole and that is the entire point of Islam to strive for excellence and perfection and call others to it.

Given that you've mostly just been putting down other Muslims for not being "the right kind of Muslim," I'd say you've done a pretty shit job on all counts.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Oh? So, Islam prohibits the homophobia and persecution of non-Abrahamic religious minorities?

Though, you may not even see those as wrong. Wouldn't be surprised.

The way you word it makes it sound like they are wrong, but the truth of the matter is no I do not support homosexuality or paganism because God has made it for men to be with women and for women to be with men it's natural its basic biology you don't even need to be a Muslim or religious person to understand why homosexuality is wrong its evident by the fact that diseases like AIDS and HIV affect homosexuals more than any other group even though some heterosexuals contract it, it will never effect heterosexuals like homosexuals, but even then in spirit of this thread do understand that in the bible it says: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." So you could actually word this "So Christianity prohibits homophobia and persecution of non-Christians?" Because you are also neglecting to note unlike Islam Christianity does not tolerate any other religion not even Jews or Muslims are safe according to pure Christianity because salvation only exists through belief in Jesus everyone else is scum.

You realize I don't give a rat's ass about Christianity either, right? I think they're both faiths that are fundamentally flawed and your God is an asshole. Simple as that.

Oh? So, Islam prohibits the homophobia and persecution of non-Abrahamic religious minorities?

Of course.

Though, you may not even see those as wrong. Wouldn't be surprised.

Why not?

How does it prevent it?

And I don't even need to answer the second question. He literally did it for me.

Oh? So, Islam prohibits the homophobia and persecution of non-Abrahamic religious minorities?

Though, you may not even see those as wrong. Wouldn't be surprised.

It protects non muslims yes.

You know, actually reading posts is a useful thing to do. Non-Abrahamic minorities. Not the precious dhimmi.

"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians—whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor shall they grieve" (2:62, 5:69, and many other verses).

Just going to leave this here.

And you still need to work on reading whole posts

Doesn't even protect all non-Muslims. Jews certainly didn't have a good life under Islam. Neither did the non-native (i.e. Early Catholic or Orthodox) Christians. Baha'is certainly don't.

Theologically, it does establish protections for Christians and Jews. In practice, it depended on where you lived and when (Fatimid Egypt and Moorish Spain were pretty decent for the most part--Seljuk Jerusalem, not so much). And you're right, I actually completely forgot about the Bahai'is. They really are getting a pretty shit deal in Iran (as do Zoroastrians, though they're "officially" protected). And a lot of Middle Eastern countries just straight up execute atheists (as well as apostates).

Yeah, the persecution of the Bahai is absolutely disgraceful. It's actually tied into your last bit. The IR treats them as apostates.

Theologically, it does establish protections for Christians and Jews. In practice, it depended on where you lived and when (Fatimid Egypt and Moorish Spain were pretty decent for the most part--Seljuk Jerusalem, not so much). And you're right, I actually completely forgot about the Bahai'is. They really are getting a pretty shit deal in Iran (as do Zoroastrians, though they're "officially" protected). And a lot of Middle Eastern countries just straight up execute atheists (as well as apostates).

Bahais are not subject to protection under Islamic law only Christians, Jews and Sabians are, and they never will be.

This just proves the point even bloody more, Khataiy. Islam doesn't protect them. So, if "Islam were being followed properly", no. Not all of the problems in the Middle East would go away.

There's no such thing as a "unanimous declaration" about Alawites tho.

Wow a non-Muslim trying to educate me on the consensus of the Uleama and every Shari'i ruling from Ibn Taymiyya the Sheikh of Islam and Ibn Qiyyam regarding them, and every ruling from every Shia scholar on this earth that is studied and revered and every Shia Imam that has literally ever lived since the inception of the Alawite cult, Ibn Nusayr was declared a disbeliever by his own teacher who was among the 12 Shia Imams there is no such thing as an Alawite Muslim or Alawite Islam or anything Islamic about the Alawite sect.

You don't bloody need to be Muslim to understand the illogicalness of saying that every/ alim says that Alawites are infidels.