Islam, the future of social conservatism?

[Washington Resistance Army]

according to pure Christianity because salvation only exists through belief in Jesus everyone else is scum.

That is not how Christian thought on the matter works.

[Khataiy]

according to pure Christianity because salvation only exists through belief in Jesus everyone else is scum.

That is not how Christian thought on the matter works.

Well no because Christians do not actually practice Christianity according to the bible or Jesus for that matter

[Kowani]

Except, no. Look, I know Islamic theology teaches that the Jewish and Christian prophets were all "actually" prophets of Islam, but no, they weren't. The prophets were Jews preaching Judaism. Jews and Christians both acknowledge this, Muslims are the only ones trying to argue that they were "actually totally Muslims, dude." Islam is a (relatively) young religion created by Mohammed in the 7th century and connecting his new religion to the old prophets was a method of giving his faith legitimacy amongst followers of those religions.

You're wrong about this, Islam teaches that the Jews were Muslims and likewise the Christians were Muslims as well, the Quran literally says "it is a confirmation of what has already been told." You are slandering Islam and Muslims right now.

“Islam teaches that the Jews were Muslims” And thus we begin denying factual history. Mate, Islam can teach all it wants, but that doesn’t make that shit true.

[Khataiy]

You're wrong about this, Islam teaches that the Jews were Muslims and likewise the Christians were Muslims as well, the Quran literally says "it is a confirmation of what has already been told." You are slandering Islam and Muslims right now.

“Islam teaches that the Jews were Muslims” And thus we begin denying factual history. Mate, Islam can teach all it wants, but that doesn’t make that shit true.

How were they not Muslims, the word Muslim means one who submits "Mu- the one who does the action action of slam-submission" so Muslim means one who submits and in its context to God, Abraham and Moses were their prophets and were sent to guide them and lead them to God and to ensure their state of submission and this is evident after the emancipation of the Tribe of Israel when they took idols and began deviating from God and Moses corrected them and the same is to be said for Jesus, modern Christianity is the religion of Paul not Jesus.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Islam in its true sense does prohibit everything that is wrong in the region today.

Oh? So, Islam prohibits the homophobia and persecution of non-Abrahamic religious minorities?

Of course.

Though, you may not even see those as wrong. Wouldn't be surprised.

Why not?

[Kowani]

“Islam teaches that the Jews were Muslims” And thus we begin denying factual history. Mate, Islam can teach all it wants, but that doesn’t make that shit true.

How were they not Muslims, the word Muslim means one who submits "Mu- the one who does the action action of slam-submission" so Muslim means one who submits and in its context to God, Abraham and Moses were their prophets and were sent to guide them and lead them to God and to ensure their state of submission and this is evident after the emancipation of the Tribe of Israel when they took idols and began deviating from God and Moses corrected them and the same is to be said for Jesus, modern Christianity is the religion of Paul not Jesus.

Ah, that moment when we manipulate semantics to still be completely wrong. A Muslim is someone who believes in Islam as truth, despite how many Scotsmen you insist aren’t Scottish while trying t’take the Englishmen as your own.

[Mystic Warriors]

Islam in its true sense does prohibit everything that is wrong in the region today.

Oh? So, Islam prohibits the homophobia and persecution of non-Abrahamic religious minorities?

Though, you may not even see those as wrong. Wouldn't be surprised.

It protects non muslims yes.

[Khataiy]

How were they not Muslims, the word Muslim means one who submits "Mu- the one who does the action action of slam-submission" so Muslim means one who submits and in its context to God, Abraham and Moses were their prophets and were sent to guide them and lead them to God and to ensure their state of submission and this is evident after the emancipation of the Tribe of Israel when they took idols and began deviating from God and Moses corrected them and the same is to be said for Jesus, modern Christianity is the religion of Paul not Jesus.

Ah, that moment when we manipulate semantics to still be completely wrong. A Muslim is someone who believes in Islam as truth, despite how many Scotsmen you insist aren’t Scottish while trying t’take the Englishmen as your own.

They did believe in Islam as the truth because their message is no different than that of Islam, God called them Muslims and I follow God not your logic.

[North German Realm]

I'm sure there are countries you can find that didn't become Muslim Majority through imperialist aggression, colonial ambitions, apartheid level segregation based on religion and warfare by a regional power throughout Islam's 14 centuries of history. Until then, however, it's just plain and obvious truth.

That isn't relevant, because Christianity was also spread through "imperialist aggression, colonial ambitions, [and] apartheid level segregation based on religion and warfare." While I'm not a fan of any religions, the "these people did bad things in the past so they're all bad now" argument is fucking stupid (not to mention an association fallacy). By all means, point out the stupid and immoral things religious people (Muslims or otherwise) do, but when you generalize to the entire religion, yes, that's Islamophobia.

Correct as this statement is, my response was directly to someone who said the above statement wasn't true regarding Islam, and Christianity (which, also, came into power largely by imperialist aggression, colonial ambition, apartheid level segregation based on religion and warfare by regional and Great powers) was not relevant because nobody brought it up. well, until you.

[Kowani]

Ah, that moment when we manipulate semantics to still be completely wrong. A Muslim is someone who believes in Islam as truth, despite how many Scotsmen you insist aren’t Scottish while trying t’take the Englishmen as your own.

They did believe in Islam as the truth because their message is no different than that of Islam

Yeah, the Hebrews were huge fans of Muhammad as God’s messager! Oh wait, no. How about hell? No, they don’t have that either. Jesus as a prophet? Nope, he’s a false messiah. The true faith being for those who were not ethnically Jewish? Absolutely not.

[North German Realm]

They did believe in Islam as the truth because their message is no different than that of Islam

Yeah, the Hebrews were huge fans of Muhammad as God’s messager! Oh wait, no. How about hell? No, they don’t have that either. Jesus as a prophet? Nope, he’s a false messiah. The true faith being for those who were not ethnically Jewish? Absolutely not.

I mean while they still (correctly) don't believe in the first three, the last one had by large disappeared by the time they'd been banished into Europe by Rome I think.

[Khataiy]

They did believe in Islam as the truth because their message is no different than that of Islam

Yeah, the Hebrews were huge fans of Muhammad as God’s messager! Oh wait, no. How about hell? No, they don’t have that either. Jesus as a prophet? Nope, he’s a false messiah. The true faith being for those who were not ethnically Jewish? Absolutely not.

You are confusing what we consider Jews and Judaism today with what they were, and yes many Jews embraced Islam and this case can be seen with Abdullah Ibn Salam who was a Rabbi and said regarding his acceptance of the Prophethood of Muhammad,

"When I heard of the appearance of the Messenger of God (peace be upon him) I began to make enquiries about his name, his genealogy, his characteristics, his time and place and I began to compare this information with what is contained in our books. From these enquiries, I became convinced about the authenticity of his prophethood and I affirmed the truth of his mission. However, I concealed my conclusions from the Jews. I held my tongue.

Then came the day when the Prophet, peace be upon him, left Makkah and headed for Yathrib. When he reached Yathrib and stopped at Quba, a man came rushing into the city, calling out to people and announcing the arrival of the Prophet.

At that moment, I was at the top of a palm tree doing some work. My aunt, Khalidah bint Al-Harith, was sitting under the tree. On hearing the news, I shouted: “Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!” (God is Great! God is Great!)

When my aunt heard me, she remonstrated with me: “May God frustrate you... By God, if you had heard that Moses was coming you would not have been more enthusiastic.”

“Auntie, he is really, by God, the ‘brother’ of Moses and follows his religion."


And you seem to forget Jesus was a "Jew" he was a Rabbi his followers were also "Jews", the truth is they were Muslims according to God during the era they lived, the Quran says: "When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims." And do remember the semantics of what Muslim means, a submitter to God they submitted to the command of God and his Prophet and their Messiah.

[Kowani]

Yeah, the Hebrews were huge fans of Muhammad as God’s messager! Oh wait, no. How about hell? No, they don’t have that either. Jesus as a prophet? Nope, he’s a false messiah. The true faith being for those who were not ethnically Jewish? Absolutely not.

I mean while they still (correctly) don't believe in the first three, the last one had by large disappeared by the time they'd been banished into Europe by Rome I think.

Yes, but he’s trying to claim that the Ancient Hebrews were actually Muslims.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Y'all we're getting more into IDT territory.

[North German Realm]

I mean while they still (correctly) don't believe in the first three, the last one had by large disappeared by the time they'd been banished into Europe by Rome I think.

Yes, but he’s trying to claim that the Ancient Hebrews were actually Muslims.

Oh, that is complete and utter cow dung and I agree with you on it.

[The of Japan]

Yes, but he’s trying to claim that the Ancient Hebrews were actually Muslims.

Oh, that is complete and utter cow dung and I agree with you on it.

yeah, islam is not really similar to the jewish law like at all.

[Khataiy]

Oh, that is complete and utter cow dung and I agree with you on it.

yeah, islam is not really similar to the jewish law like at all.

Is this sarcasm?

[The of Japan]

yeah, islam is not really similar to the jewish law like at all.

Is this sarcasm?

sorry if it sounded like sarcasm, but it is not.

[North German Realm]

Oh, that is complete and utter cow dung and I agree with you on it.

yeah, islam is not really similar to the jewish law like at all.

Technically a lot of its laws are a deviation of what the Hanifs of Quraysh thought Jewish laws were like. Part of the early Jewish-Islamic enmity started because of that.

[The of Japan]

yeah, islam is not really similar to the jewish law like at all.

Technically a lot of its laws are a deviation of what the Hanifs of Quraysh thought Jewish laws were like. Part of the early Jewish-Islamic enmity started because of that.

many of them ddint believe muhammed, and a jewish woman also poisoned him.

[Kowani]

Yeah, the Hebrews were huge fans of Muhammad as God’s messager! Oh wait, no. How about hell? No, they don’t have that either. Jesus as a prophet? Nope, he’s a false messiah. The true faith being for those who were not ethnically Jewish? Absolutely not.

You are confusing what we consider Jews and Judaism today with what they were, and yes many Jews embraced Islam and this case can be seen with Abdullah Ibn Salam who was a Rabbi and said regarding his acceptance of the Prophethood of Muhammad,

"When I heard of the appearance of the Messenger of God (peace be upon him) I began to make enquiries about his name, his genealogy, his characteristics, his time and place and I began to compare this information with what is contained in our books. From these enquiries, I became convinced about the authenticity of his prophethood and I affirmed the truth of his mission. However, I concealed my conclusions from the Jews. I held my tongue.

Then came the day when the Prophet, peace be upon him, left Makkah and headed for Yathrib. When he reached Yathrib and stopped at Quba, a man came rushing into the city, calling out to people and announcing the arrival of the Prophet.

At that moment, I was at the top of a palm tree doing some work. My aunt, Khalidah bint Al-Harith, was sitting under the tree. On hearing the news, I shouted: “Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!” (God is Great! God is Great!)

When my aunt heard me, she remonstrated with me: “May God frustrate you... By God, if you had heard that Moses was coming you would not have been more enthusiastic.”

“Auntie, he is really, by God, the ‘brother’ of Moses and follows his religion."


And you seem to forget Jesus was a "Jew" he was a Rabbi his followers were also "Jews", the truth is they were Muslims according to God during the era they lived, the Quran says: "When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims." And do remember the semantics of what Muslim means, a submitter to God they submitted to the command of God and his Prophet and their Messiah.

Your first example is absolutely irrelevant, as religious conversions happen all the time. The logic behind each individual one does not make a difference.

For that second part, I’m going to need a citation, that being a Bible page, what with the Qu’ran having a very obvious bias in this case, claiming that Jesus and his disciples didn’t believe that Jesus wasn’t actually God’s son, what with that being a somewhat important part of Christianity and Islam denying that...after all, if one believes Jesus was the sin of God, they cannot be a Muslim.

The semantics are also useless. This particular fallacy involves believing that the roots of a word determine its meaning and all other definitions are invalid. Homophobia is not usually the fear of homosexuals, a county is no longer ruled by a count, and decimation no longer means reduce something by a tenth.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=441628

[Byzconia]

Except, no. Look, I know Islamic theology teaches that the Jewish and Christian prophets were all "actually" prophets of Islam, but no, they weren't. The prophets were Jews preaching Judaism. Jews and Christians both acknowledge this, Muslims are the only ones trying to argue that they were "actually totally Muslims, dude." Islam is a (relatively) young religion created by Mohammed in the 7th century and connecting his new religion to the old prophets was a method of giving his faith legitimacy amongst followers of those religions.

You're wrong about this, Islam teaches that the Jews were Muslims and likewise the Christians were Muslims as well, the Quran literally says "it is a confirmation of what has already been told."

This is literally what I just said.

You are slandering Islam and Muslims right now.

Objectively false.

[Khataiy]

You are confusing what we consider Jews and Judaism today with what they were, and yes many Jews embraced Islam and this case can be seen with Abdullah Ibn Salam who was a Rabbi and said regarding his acceptance of the Prophethood of Muhammad,

"When I heard of the appearance of the Messenger of God (peace be upon him) I began to make enquiries about his name, his genealogy, his characteristics, his time and place and I began to compare this information with what is contained in our books. From these enquiries, I became convinced about the authenticity of his prophethood and I affirmed the truth of his mission. However, I concealed my conclusions from the Jews. I held my tongue.

Then came the day when the Prophet, peace be upon him, left Makkah and headed for Yathrib. When he reached Yathrib and stopped at Quba, a man came rushing into the city, calling out to people and announcing the arrival of the Prophet.

At that moment, I was at the top of a palm tree doing some work. My aunt, Khalidah bint Al-Harith, was sitting under the tree. On hearing the news, I shouted: “Allahu Akbar! Allahu Akbar!” (God is Great! God is Great!)

When my aunt heard me, she remonstrated with me: “May God frustrate you... By God, if you had heard that Moses was coming you would not have been more enthusiastic.”

“Auntie, he is really, by God, the ‘brother’ of Moses and follows his religion."


And you seem to forget Jesus was a "Jew" he was a Rabbi his followers were also "Jews", the truth is they were Muslims according to God during the era they lived, the Quran says: "When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) Allah." Said the disciples: "We are Allah's helpers: We believe in Allah, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims." And do remember the semantics of what Muslim means, a submitter to God they submitted to the command of God and his Prophet and their Messiah.

Your first example is absolutely irrelevant, as religious conversions happen all the time. The logic behind each individual one does not make a difference.

For that second part, I’m going to need a citation, that being a Bible page, what with the Qu’ran having a very obvious bias in this case, claiming that Jesus and his disciples didn’t believe that Jesus wasn’t actually God’s son, what with that being a somewhat important part of Christianity and Islam denying that...after all, if one believes Jesus was the sin of God, they cannot be a Muslim.

The semantics are also useless. This particular fallacy involves believing that the roots of a word determine its meaning and all other definitions are invalid. Homophobia is not usually the fear of homosexuals, a county is no longer ruled by a count, and decimation no longer means reduce something by a tenth.

I did not quote the bible at all in my post, with that aside Christianity is the religion of Saul, modern Christianity and what is considered canonical and orthodox is based 100% on the beliefs of Saul not Jesus and this is evident by the very fact that early Christianity was clandestine and unorganized with it varying from follower to follower as in many cases Christians held sermons and so on in private and hidden and it would largely very and various group of Christians rejected the trinity and even the notion that Jesus is God such as the case with ebionites who believe regarding Jesus beliefs very similar if not identical to Islam, and even today this can also be witnessed to an extent with the Jehova's witnesses who are arguably the closest Christian sect to Islam, and it should also be pointed out the Gospel of Barnabas which also verifies many Islamic teachings aside from the main Gospel and Psalms.

The semantics are extremely important here because as a Muslim you must believe the Quran is God's speech and word, this means when you read the Quran you read what God has personally written and from this perspective God has made no difference between them us and calls us the same as his submitters.

[Byzconia]

Oh, I see. It's okay, guys, all of that bad stuff is Not Real Islam!

First and foremost in Islam the concept of Takfeer exists you being a non-Muslim it is understandable why you wouldn't comprehend this concept, and it is extremely complex and heavily discussed and debated by even the most refined and knowledgeable of Islamic scholars and we as Muslims as a whole have been warned not to deal with it lightly, but there are set conditions for what considers one a Muslim and this is called the fold of Islam and if actions are taken that breach it you are considered outside the fold of Islam and are no longer considered a Muslim no matter how much you may claim to be, but ultimately God knows best who is and who isn't Muslim.

And you can find plenty of similar concepts in every other religion. There are plenty of Christian sects that basically define "Christianity" as "everything we believe and nothing we don't believe." Again, the fact that you disagree with other Muslims' interpretations of Islam does not make your interpretation "right."

Secondly you clearly did not understand what I wrote, and I remain in my stance that no conflict in the Middle East today can be blamed on Islam for numerous reasons

What you wrote was, and remains, a No True Scotsman fallacy. You're trying to pawn off crimes committed in the name of Islam as "Not Real Islam"--just like when Christians say the Crusaders "weren't Real Christians." And in the end it's all completely pointless, because it's not your responsibility to come up with excuses for other people's shitty behavior. If you disagree with it, simply disagree with it--nothing else is necessary.

such as the case of Syria, Bashar al-Assad is not a Muslim

While I have no idea whether Assad is particularly devout, he identifies as an Alawite Muslim, and I see no reason to disbelieve him.

and he initiated the war against the people who are Muslims

Which is irrelevant.

the only thing that Islam has to do with the Syrian war is that it is the Muslims are the victims of the savagery of Bashar al-Assad because he hates Islam and Muslims,

I'm pretty sure Assad hates everyone. Regardless, he retains support amongst Alawite and Shi'ite Syrians (mostly because they're afraid of what would happen if the Sunni majority took power over the secular Assad--a legitimate fear, to be sure).

likewise in Iraq Iran has occupied the country and dominated it and has targeted Muslims with sectarian death squads that also operate in Syria and go back and fourth and take orders from Tehran because Iran is wagging war on Islam to replace it their cult.

Iran are Shi'ites. Sunnis and Shi'ites have been fighting each other for literally centuries. Again, this dispute is no different from the Catholic and Orthodox Christian Churches declaring each other to not be True Christians in the aftermath of the Schism.

The conflict between the Arabs and Kurds and Turks which is a major conflict has absolutely nothing to do with Islam,

No one said it did. You're the one who seems to think that we think that every single conflict in the Middle East is over religion. No one here has said that.

and it is purely an ethnic conflict which is not unique to the middle east or Islamic nations, the war in Afghanistan also has several ethnic undertones to it and this is aside the fact that Afghanistan was invaded by a non-Muslim country causing a majority of the issues we see there today, in Burma you cannot blame Islam for the suffering of the Rohingya, likewise in Bosnia you cannot blame Islam for the genocide that occurred there, nor can you blame Islam for the suffering of the Uyghur people of China.

Why would anyone "blame Islam" for non-Muslims persecuting Muslims? This entire sentence makes no logical sense.

Islam in its true sense does prohibit everything that is wrong in the region today.

And you're free to believe that. Doesn't mean it's true.