Islam, the future of social conservatism?

[Byzconia]

Lol how is that supposed to help your argument? The "Not Real Communism" thing is a joke (to the point of being a meme) to non-Communists. You using the same logical fallacy doesn't support your argument in any way.

True, but have you heard of something called "revisionism"? It's a term used by the commies. We also have people like that in Islam.

And, again, it's ridiculous. In practice, "revisionist" just means "person/idea I disagree with." By all means, disagree with the actions/beliefs of other Muslims, but the fact you disagree with them does mean that you're practicing "real Islam" and they're not.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

It's not a logical fallacy if done right. A communist advocating for government isn't a true communist.

Communism isn't against government, it's against the state. Even then, Communist ideology is most certainly supportive of a "transitional" worker's state. The argument (Marxist) Communists use is that the USSR/China/Vietnam/whoever wasn't "real Communism" because they did A/B/C when they should have done X/Y/Z. This is a fallacy.

A Muslim believing in more than 1 god isn't a true Muslim.

What does this have to do with anything? No one has mentioned this until you, right now.

It point out the flaw in pulling the "no true Scotsman" card.

[Washington Resistance Army]

No human followed Islam before Muhammad, even according to Islam.
Because it was Muhammad it was first fully revealed to, according to Islam.

Fully revealed to, yes. But it existed in its incomplete form before then.

No it didn't lol

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Fully revealed to, yes. But it existed in its incomplete form before then.

No it didn't lol

I mean, sort of. In regards to what it stole from Zoroastrianism, Christianity, Arab polytheism, and Judaism, of course.

[Byzconia]

As I've already pointed out several times, the Kaaba was a part of religious practices in pre-Islamic Arabia. We literally know this for a fact. Constantly denying history doesn't mean that that history didn't happen.

In 2000 BC though, it was a part of Islamic religious practices. Pre-Islamic Arabia? It's a relatively new era compared to Ibrahim's time.

Except, no. Look, I know Islamic theology teaches that the Jewish and Christian prophets were all "actually" prophets of Islam, but no, they weren't. The prophets were Jews preaching Judaism. Jews and Christians both acknowledge this, Muslims are the only ones trying to argue that they were "actually totally Muslims, dude." Islam is a (relatively) young religion created by Mohammed in the 7th century and connecting his new religion to the old prophets was a method of giving his faith legitimacy amongst followers of those religions.

[Byzconia]

No human followed Islam before Muhammad, even according to Islam.
Because it was Muhammad it was first fully revealed to, according to Islam.

Fully revealed to, yes. But it existed in its incomplete form before then.

As I've already pointed out several times, the Kaaba was a part of religious practices in pre-Islamic Arabia. We literally know this for a fact. Constantly denying history doesn't mean that that history didn't happen.

Good thing I never denied it.

Literally all of your posts so far have been you denying historical facts and then going, "I never denied that." It's getting really fucking exhausting.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Fully revealed to, yes. But it existed in its incomplete form before then.

Good thing I never denied it.

Literally all of your posts so far have been you denying historical facts and then going, "I never denied that."

Because I haven't.

It's getting really f*cking exhausting.

Then stop.

[Byzconia]

Communism isn't against government, it's against the state. Even then, Communist ideology is most certainly supportive of a "transitional" worker's state. The argument (Marxist) Communists use is that the USSR/China/Vietnam/whoever wasn't "real Communism" because they did A/B/C when they should have done X/Y/Z. This is a fallacy.



What does this have to do with anything? No one has mentioned this until you, right now.

It point out the flaw in pulling the "no true Scotsman" card.

Except it has literally nothing to do with this conversation. The post I've been responding to literally says:

You cannot blame a single issue in the Middle East on Islam as much as people want to believe it is, none of the issues originate or have anything to do with Islam because if Islam was being practiced properly there would be regional peace and harmony, and if Islam was applied globally there would be world peace.

None of this has anything to do with "believing in more than one God." You're right, a Muslim believing in more than one god isn't practicing Islam correctly, but I also never said otherwise.

[Byzconia]

Literally all of your posts so far have been you denying historical facts and then going, "I never denied that."

Because I haven't.

It's getting really f*cking exhausting.

Then stop.

So? It was still introduced before Islam.

No it wasn't.

It certainly was before any human ever heard of Islam.

No it wasn't. That word maybe, but not the worship.

[Lyxtovia]

In 2000 BC though, it was a part of Islamic religious practices. Pre-Islamic Arabia? It's a relatively new era compared to Ibrahim's time.

Except, no. Look, I know Islamic theology teaches that the Jewish and Christian prophets were all "actually" prophets of Islam, but no, they weren't. The prophets were Jews preaching Judaism. Jews and Christians both acknowledge this, Muslims are the only ones trying to argue that they were "actually totally Muslims, dude." Islam is a (relatively) young religion created by Mohammed in the 7th century and connecting his new religion to the old prophets was a method of giving his faith legitimacy amongst followers of those religions.

Think of it like patches in a software, now, thanks.
Judaism and Christianity are the "revisionist" version of Islam.
Think of it as comparing Bernie Sanders to Karl Marx.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Except, no. Look, I know Islamic theology teaches that the Jewish and Christian prophets were all "actually" prophets of Islam, but no, they weren't. The prophets were Jews preaching Judaism. Jews and Christians both acknowledge this, Muslims are the only ones trying to argue that they were "actually totally Muslims, dude." Islam is a (relatively) young religion created by Mohammed in the 7th century and connecting his new religion to the old prophets was a method of giving his faith legitimacy amongst followers of those religions.

Think of it like patches in a software, now, thanks.
Judaism and Christianity are the "revisionist" version of Islam.
Think of it as comparing Bernie Sanders to Karl Marx.

See, any of those metaphors would make sense if you had literally any sources besides Islamic ones to back it.

[Novus America]

Except, no. Look, I know Islamic theology teaches that the Jewish and Christian prophets were all "actually" prophets of Islam, but no, they weren't. The prophets were Jews preaching Judaism. Jews and Christians both acknowledge this, Muslims are the only ones trying to argue that they were "actually totally Muslims, dude." Islam is a (relatively) young religion created by Mohammed in the 7th century and connecting his new religion to the old prophets was a method of giving his faith legitimacy amongst followers of those religions.

Think of it like patches in a software, now, thanks.
Judaism and Christianity are the "revisionist" version of Islam.
Think of it as comparing Bernie Sanders to Karl Marx.

Umm the problem with that is if Allah is perfect why did it take him so long to get his software running properly?

His software being buggier than a Microsoft operating system for thousands of years makes that analogy totally undermine any claim to Allah being perfect.

[Byzconia]

Think of it like patches in a software, now, thanks.
Judaism and Christianity are the "revisionist" version of Islam.
Think of it as comparing Bernie Sanders to Karl Marx.

See, any of those metaphors would make sense if you had literally any sources besides Islamic ones to back it.

^This.

I'll also add that, no, Judaism and Christianity are not "revisionist" versions of Islam--they came first. Likewise, the "comparing Bernie Sanders to Karl Marx" analogy makes no sense in this context, as Sanders has nothing to do with Marxism (aside from social democracy's very vague historical connection to it).

[Novus America]

Think of it like patches in a software, now, thanks.
Judaism and Christianity are the "revisionist" version of Islam.
Think of it as comparing Bernie Sanders to Karl Marx.

See, any of those metaphors would make sense if you had literally any sources besides Islamic ones to back it.

Actually though even if the were correct they would contradict the idea Allah is perfect.
Which is a big issue with Islam.

If the Quaran always existed, and Allah came to people before Muhammad, why not give it to them? Why purposely have people practices your religion incorrectly?

[Byzconia]

See, any of those metaphors would make sense if you had literally any sources besides Islamic ones to back it.

Actually though even if the were correct they would contradict the idea Allah is perfect.
Which is a big issue with Islam.

If the Quaran always existed, and Allah came to people before Muhammad, why not give it to them? Why purposely have people practices your religion incorrectly?

$5 says it'll be something along the lines of, "It's all a part of God's plan."

[El-Amin Caliphate]

See, any of those metaphors would make sense if you had literally any sources besides Islamic ones to back it.

Actually though even if the were correct they would contradict the idea Allah is perfect.
Which is a big issue with Islam.

If the Quaran always existed, and Allah came to people before Muhammad, why not give it to them? Why purposely have people practices your religion incorrectly?

The Holy Qur'an didnt always exist, and Allah SWT isn't here to handhold people.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Allah SWT isn't here to handhold people.

Wouldn't he be? He's an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omniomniomni god. If he cares for his followers, wouldn't he hold their hands? Why would he let them stray so far from his true teachings? Was he incapable? Or was he uncaring?

[El-Amin Caliphate]

Allah SWT isn't here to handhold people.

Wouldn't he be? He's an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omniomniomni god. If he cares for his followers, wouldn't he hold their hands? Why would he let them stray so far from his true teachings? Was he incapable? Or was he uncaring?

Because this life is a test, not mollycoddling. Also, Allah SWT isn't gonna help people who don't want it. Does Ahura Mazda act differently?

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Wouldn't he be? He's an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omniomniomni god. If he cares for his followers, wouldn't he hold their hands? Why would he let them stray so far from his true teachings? Was he incapable? Or was he uncaring?

Because this life is a test, not mollycoddling. Does Ahura Mazda act differently?

Ahura Mazda isn't omnipotent. He's just the most powerful. Humanity aids him against evil through our actions.

And, for that matter, Allah is sort of here to hold our hands. The Quran calls him al-Hadi, right? He's al-Rashid? Al-Wali? Al-Hafiz? Al-Qadib? Al-Muhaymin? Al-Mumin? How can he be any of these if he sets people on the path to disbelief, knowing that he'll punish them in the end for it?

Edit for your edit: Zoroastrianism accepts the validity of all faiths and rejects eternal punishment for nonbelievers. Why would Ahura Mazda feel the need to push people to be Zoroastrian if he had laid this out?

[Byzconia]

Wouldn't he be? He's an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omniomniomni god. If he cares for his followers, wouldn't he hold their hands? Why would he let them stray so far from his true teachings? Was he incapable? Or was he uncaring?

Because this life is a test, not mollycoddling.

Gotta say, I personally detest this notion. Saying "this life is a test" is saying that literally nothing matters outside getting into Heaven--every experience you have, every person you meet, every thought--all of it is meaningless if it doesn't improve your standing with God. If this life only matters for "getting good" with God, then it doesn't matter--yet Christians and Muslims simultaneously claim to value "the sanctity of life." Don't get me wrong, life is totally meaningless, but at least I actually acknowledge it. There's a lot more I could say about this, but it would probably start to veer into threadjacking territory.

Also, Allah SWT isn't gonna help people who don't want it.

Christians also love to say this--and it doesn't mean anything when they say it, either.

[Khataiy]

In 2000 BC though, it was a part of Islamic religious practices. Pre-Islamic Arabia? It's a relatively new era compared to Ibrahim's time.

Except, no. Look, I know Islamic theology teaches that the Jewish and Christian prophets were all "actually" prophets of Islam, but no, they weren't. The prophets were Jews preaching Judaism. Jews and Christians both acknowledge this, Muslims are the only ones trying to argue that they were "actually totally Muslims, dude." Islam is a (relatively) young religion created by Mohammed in the 7th century and connecting his new religion to the old prophets was a method of giving his faith legitimacy amongst followers of those religions.

You're wrong about this, Islam teaches that the Jews were Muslims and likewise the Christians were Muslims as well, the Quran literally says "it is a confirmation of what has already been told." You are slandering Islam and Muslims right now.

[Khataiy]

You cannot blame a single issue in the Middle East on Islam as much as people want to believe it is, none of the issues originate or have anything to do with Islam because if Islam was being practiced properly there would be regional peace and harmony, and if Islam was applied globally there would be world peace.

Oh, I see. It's okay, guys, all of that bad stuff is Not Real Islam!

First and foremost in Islam the concept of Takfeer exists you being a non-Muslim it is understandable why you wouldn't comprehend this concept, and it is extremely complex and heavily discussed and debated by even the most refined and knowledgeable of Islamic scholars and we as Muslims as a whole have been warned not to deal with it lightly, but there are set conditions for what considers one a Muslim and this is called the fold of Islam and if actions are taken that breach it you are considered outside the fold of Islam and are no longer considered a Muslim no matter how much you may claim to be, but ultimately God knows best who is and who isn't Muslim.

Secondly you clearly did not understand what I wrote, and I remain in my stance that no conflict in the Middle East today can be blamed on Islam for numerous reasons such as the case of Syria, Bashar al-Assad is not a Muslim and he initiated the war against the people who are Muslims the only thing that Islam has to do with the Syrian war is that it is the Muslims are the victims of the savagery of Bashar al-Assad because he hates Islam and Muslims, likewise in Iraq Iran has occupied the country and dominated it and has targeted Muslims with sectarian death squads that also operate in Syria and go back and fourth and take orders from Tehran because Iran is wagging war on Islam to replace it their cult.

The conflict between the Arabs and Kurds and Turks which is a major conflict has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, and it is purely an ethnic conflict which is not unique to the middle east or Islamic nations, the war in Afghanistan also has several ethnic undertones to it and this is aside the fact that Afghanistan was invaded by a non-Muslim country causing a majority of the issues we see there today, in Burma you cannot blame Islam for the suffering of the Rohingya, likewise in Bosnia you cannot blame Islam for the genocide that occurred there, nor can you blame Islam for the suffering of the Uyghur people of China.

Islam in its true sense does prohibit everything that is wrong in the region today.

[Khataiy]

Actually though even if the were correct they would contradict the idea Allah is perfect.
Which is a big issue with Islam.

If the Quaran always existed, and Allah came to people before Muhammad, why not give it to them? Why purposely have people practices your religion incorrectly?

The Holy Qur'an didnt always exist, and Allah SWT isn't here to handhold people.

Actually Allah is here to handhold us, he is our helper and lord and we turn to him, but do bear in mind, he doesn't need us but we do need him.

[Sahansahiye Iran]

Islam in its true sense does prohibit everything that is wrong in the region today.

Oh? So, Islam prohibits the homophobia and persecution of non-Abrahamic religious minorities?

Though, you may not even see those as wrong. Wouldn't be surprised.

[Khataiy]

Islam in its true sense does prohibit everything that is wrong in the region today.

Oh? So, Islam prohibits the homophobia and persecution of non-Abrahamic religious minorities?

Though, you may not even see those as wrong. Wouldn't be surprised.

The way you word it makes it sound like they are wrong, but the truth of the matter is no I do not support homosexuality or paganism because God has made it for men to be with women and for women to be with men it's natural its basic biology you don't even need to be a Muslim or religious person to understand why homosexuality is wrong its evident by the fact that diseases like AIDS and HIV affect homosexuals more than any other group even though some heterosexuals contract it, it will never effect heterosexuals like homosexuals, but even then in spirit of this thread do understand that in the bible it says: "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them." So you could actually word this "So Christianity prohibits homophobia and persecution of non-Christians?" Because you are also neglecting to note unlike Islam Christianity does not tolerate any other religion not even Jews or Muslims are safe according to pure Christianity because salvation only exists through belief in Jesus everyone else is scum.