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Islam, the future of social conservatism?

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Darussalam
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Islam, the future of social conservatism?

Postby Darussalam » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:11 am

Currently, a large segment among the modern Right are concerned with the increasing encroachment of progressive social values, and (contrary to some people who think this is still the heyday of liberal rationality era of early 2010s) not necessarily for religious reasons. Many perceive these values as responsible for a culture of promiscuity, state-dependence, and maniacal piety contests, which in turn undermined family values and caused a decline in social cohesion. Whether these claims are true is irrelevant - what matters is that many believe that many material/secular ills of modern society are directly caused by proliferation of irresponsible value system. Jordan Peterson is perhaps an apt representation of such beliefs. Therefore, many turned back towards traditions and faith, chiefly Christianity as the traditional religion of much of the West. Not necessarily out of beliefs per se - but as a vehicle of the culture war against Progresssivism, a coherent structure that glues together their sense of identity torn apart by social atomism.

But Christians are losing their own culture war. Throughout the West, not only that observant Christians are declining in number, their values are also being undermined by eternal march towards Progress that values short-term pleasures and a freer range of behaviors compared to those ordained by traditional morality. Christian leaders and institutions don't exactly provide the most exemplary moral guidance, either - many in desperation for the ears of the flock start breaking ranks and making concessions to the Zeitgeist, recognizing values alien to their historical predecessors. It's not exactly unrealistic considering the present trend that soon anything sort of washed-down diverse Unitarian Universalism will be unpalatable to polite society, discriminated as a sort of archaic bigotry.

In a way, betting on Christianity to win the war of cultural values against Progressivism is a losing fight from the get-go. It is simply far too ill-equipped. There is another religion, however, that is currently rising in prominence, rapidly growing in many Western countries, that could solve many social ills traditionalists decry about modern, secularized society.

Image

https://metro.co.uk/2019/01/27/muslim-p ... s-8399641/
Books now being read by pupils at Parkfield Community School include Mommy, Mama and Me and King & King, both of which are stories about same-sex relationships and marriages.

But Mr Moffat, who is gay, has come under fire from some Muslim parents who believe homosexuality is a sin.

Outraged mum Fatima Shah has taken her 10-year-old daughter out of the school.

She said: ‘It’s inappropriate, totally wrong. Children are being told it’s OK to be gay yet 98 per cent of children at this school are Muslim. It’s a Muslim community.

‘I’ve taken my daughter out and other parents have too. Enough is enough. Sex relationship education is being taught without our consent. We’ve not been informed about what’s being taught. ‘Mr Moffat is running what’s called CHIPS – challenging homophobia in primary schools – and it’s totally against Islamic beliefs. My child came home and told me am I OK to be a boy? It’s confusing children about sexuality.

‘I want my child to learn about English, maths and science. I’m keeping my daughter away from the school until something is done. I’ve been paying £20-an-hour tuition at home instead.’

Compared to Christianity, Islam has several advantages in preserving traditional morality.

The first is that its relatively exotic, non-white status confers advantageous privileges. It is far easier to advocate conservative values cloaked through "diversity" and "values of marginalized community". This is why, after all, hijab, a clothing intended as social and sexual control for women, is also bizarrely represented in woke propaganda. Or how anti-semitism penetrated Women's March (Sarsour herself being a well-known Hamas enthusiast, and Mallory an open admirer of Farrakhan). This will be increasingly evident as the number of Muslims increase, and their political clout grows in importance.

Second, Islam has a vastly more sophisticated mechanism of patriarchal social control. It is hardly controversial than in general, women have much less rights in Islam than Christianity. To be more precise, their roles and rights are clearly delineated in al-Qur'an, which is regarded as literal heavenly revelation, and thus followed pretty much word-by-word. There is no weaseling for promiscuity - homosexuality is explicitly condemned in the Qur'an, mentioned as the exact reason God punished Sodom. Fornication has a clear punishment, also explicitly written in the scripture. In short, the room for interpretation regarding sexual morality in Islam is pretty strict, and traditional scholars generally do not dispute over them. The rules made it clear - promiscuous behaviors belong only in very secret, men and women have strictly delineated roles for each other. Little wonder that Muslim communities in general tend to have higher birthrate than other communities around them.

Third, Muslim societies have a high social cohesion and intense sense of identity. Protests ensuing after perceived slights and insults to the Prophet could attest that easily. It is uncontroversial among traditional scholars that apostasy is criminal and punishable - by death. This might seem objectionable until one remembers that freedom of thought is partly the reason many drifted away and abandoned the Christian flock. Muslim societies have apostates (such as Yours Truly!) but they keep themselves in secret, behind the doors, thereby ensuring that degenerate ideas do not publicly spread. Even today, Muslims maintain highly segregated existence in Europe, ensuring preservation of their values in face of increasingly hostile world.

Plenty of Muslims have started to resist tides of Progress. Rate of opposition to homosexuality, for example, remains far higher among Muslim communities in Europe, which should a grave cause of concern among LGBT communities there. They appeal to the wishes of Western leaders to avoid offending their sensibilities, which are very thin - but on the other hand, very enforceable. Between an increasing importance of Muslim political voice in Europe, and increasing social liberalization, there's no way this bodes well. Both parties will clash, and quite violently at that.
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So, traditionalists, social conservatives, fascists, and alt-rightists of NSG. Instead of the virgin Christianity, why not the chad Islam?
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:19 am

Whilst yeah I do increasingly believe we're trying to push too much shit solely for "muh progress" Islam has no place in the western world tbh
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Postby Gospel Power » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:19 am

Sad but true, Christianity is on decline, but Islam is not the answer and never will be.
The answer is more Christianity, the fundamental type.
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Postby Darussalam » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:19 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Whilst yeah I do increasingly believe we're trying to push too much shit solely for "muh progress" Islam has no place in the western world tbh

And why is that?
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:20 am

I'm not a fascist, alt-right, or anything like that, but that shit should be kept out of the west. It's bad enough that the left supports such authoritarianism for their "diversity" reasons, and the last thing we need is a reactionary movement embracing radical Islam just to bring us into the dark ages. The ideals of the Enlightenment should be protected.

Edit: Also, many elements of social conservatism aren't great to say the least.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:20 am

Darussalam wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:Whilst yeah I do increasingly believe we're trying to push too much shit solely for "muh progress" Islam has no place in the western world tbh

And why is that?


Most forms of the religion are just not compatible with western civilization.
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Postby North German Realm » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:24 am

Within context of the west, Islam is never going to have the large enough popular base that it needs to become a "culture" that would need conserving (i.e., topic of the social conservatives)

Social Conservatives tend to align with Hardliner Muslims on certain issues. That's only because they're both idiocies that belong to garbage can of history, not because "Islam is becoming the future of social conservatism"
At least, that's my own two cents.
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Darussalam
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Postby Darussalam » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:24 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Darussalam wrote:And why is that?


Most forms of the religion are just not compatible with western civilization.

Christianity used to be an Oriental religion too. It isn't particularly more or less compatible than Islam, status quo bias just makes you feel that. In reality, Islam can be "Westernized" without its core beliefs stripped apart. It would perhaps look somewhat like Istanbul or the Balkans. After all, there were Western traditionalists in 20th century who did convert to Islam.
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:28 am

Darussalam wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Most forms of the religion are just not compatible with western civilization.

Christianity used to be an Oriental religion too. It isn't particularly more or less compatible than Islam, status quo bias just makes you feel that. In reality, Islam can be "Westernized" without its core beliefs stripped apart. It would perhaps look somewhat like Istanbul or the Balkans. After all, there were Western traditionalists in 20th century who did convert to Islam.


Christianity became westernized because it got cucked and lost all its power to secular states and became more of a cultural thing than an actual religious thing for a lot of people. Sure the same could happen for Islam, but it would hardly be Islam at that point.
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:28 am

Darussalam wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Most forms of the religion are just not compatible with western civilization.

Christianity used to be an Oriental religion too. It isn't particularly more or less compatible than Islam, status quo bias just makes you feel that. In reality, Islam can be "Westernized" without its core beliefs stripped apart. It would perhaps look somewhat like Istanbul or the Balkans. After all, there were Western traditionalists in 20th century who did convert to Islam.

And there was later a genocide against Greeks and Christians in the area centuries later, by the Muslims.
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:29 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Darussalam wrote:Christianity used to be an Oriental religion too. It isn't particularly more or less compatible than Islam, status quo bias just makes you feel that. In reality, Islam can be "Westernized" without its core beliefs stripped apart. It would perhaps look somewhat like Istanbul or the Balkans. After all, there were Western traditionalists in 20th century who did convert to Islam.


Christianity became westernized because it got cucked and lost all its power to secular states and became more of a cultural thing than an actual religious thing for a lot of people. Sure the same could happen for Islam, but it would hardly be Islam at that point.

Good, religion should loose all of its power. It's an out of date concept anyway.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:31 am

I don't know if it'll replace Christianity as the primary mechanism for promoting social conservatism in the West, but I think it will draw in some social conservatives for whom Christianity really is just a tool.


Incidentally, it's always entertaining to see people pretend to care about "Western values" while they call for freedom of religion to be thrown out.
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Postby Darussalam » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:33 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Darussalam wrote:Christianity used to be an Oriental religion too. It isn't particularly more or less compatible than Islam, status quo bias just makes you feel that. In reality, Islam can be "Westernized" without its core beliefs stripped apart. It would perhaps look somewhat like Istanbul or the Balkans. After all, there were Western traditionalists in 20th century who did convert to Islam.


Christianity became westernized because it got cucked and lost all its power to secular states and became more of a cultural thing than an actual religious thing for a lot of people. Sure the same could happen for Islam, but it would hardly be Islam at that point.

? Westernization isn't secularization, which is impossible. State religion will always exist at the top no matter what. The Christian Church was just supplanted by the Cathedral of Progress, which in a way is its natural continuation. If you think "Progress" is the fundamental element of Western civilization, then fair - this proposal isn't intended for you, just as it isn't intended for me.
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Postby Darussalam » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:36 am

Ifreann wrote:I don't know if it'll replace Christianity as the primary mechanism for promoting social conservatism in the West, but I think it will draw in some social conservatives for whom Christianity really is just a tool.


Incidentally, it's always entertaining to see people pretend to care about "Western values" while they call for freedom of religion to be thrown out.

If you think Western values should intrinsically entail things like women's rights, religious freedoms, and an assortment of other things then you're among those who are enthusiastically clapping for 21st century. This is intended for people who grumble at it instead.

Incidentally, while I'm not a social conservative per se, I don't think there's such thing as the Platonic form of "Western values". Religious freedoms really just evolved as states centralized violence and consolidated their authority, and women's rights have changed a lot during the last century. LGBT rights are hardly "Western values" until the last twenty years or so.
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:38 am

Darussalam wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Christianity became westernized because it got cucked and lost all its power to secular states and became more of a cultural thing than an actual religious thing for a lot of people. Sure the same could happen for Islam, but it would hardly be Islam at that point.

? Westernization isn't secularization, which is impossible. State religion will always exist at the top no matter what. The Christian Church was just supplanted by the Cathedral of Progress, which in a way is its natural continuation. If you think "Progress" is the fundamental element of Western civilization, then fair - this proposal isn't intended for you, just as it isn't intended for me.

What a wonderful thread this is turning out to be. We've got the people who want to destroy "Western values" to save them from the Muslims, and we have you telling us that secularism is actually a religion.
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Postby Darussalam » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:42 am

Ifreann wrote:
Darussalam wrote:? Westernization isn't secularization, which is impossible. State religion will always exist at the top no matter what. The Christian Church was just supplanted by the Cathedral of Progress, which in a way is its natural continuation. If you think "Progress" is the fundamental element of Western civilization, then fair - this proposal isn't intended for you, just as it isn't intended for me.

What a wonderful thread this is turning out to be. We've got the people who want to destroy "Western values" to save them from the Muslims, and we have you telling us that secularism is actually a religion.

Ideally, I would prefer that this isn't the case and that secularism is actually genuine secularism.

But "Progressivism is a religion" is a very old, trivially obvious take to everyone except progressives. This isn't necessarily bad thing, especially if you're sympathetic with progressive social values.
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:43 am

Gospel Power wrote:Christianity is on decline ... The answer is more Christianity, the fundamental type.

How the fuck do you square the former with the latter? If Christianity is declining, how do you figure that we can increase it?
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:49 am

Darussalam wrote:
Ifreann wrote:I don't know if it'll replace Christianity as the primary mechanism for promoting social conservatism in the West, but I think it will draw in some social conservatives for whom Christianity really is just a tool.


Incidentally, it's always entertaining to see people pretend to care about "Western values" while they call for freedom of religion to be thrown out.

If you think Western values should intrinsically entail things like women's rights, religious freedoms, and an assortment of other things then you're among those who are enthusiastically clapping for 21st century. This is intended for people who grumble at it instead.

And as I said, I think that some of the people who grumble at this century will convert to Islam and use it to promote their social conservative agenda, but I don't expect it to take the top spot in that particular league from Christianity. Christianity is too thoroughly entwined with the "European"/"Western" identity that conservatives want to enforce.

Incidentally, while I'm not a social conservative per se, I don't think there's such thing as the Platonic form of "Western values". Religious freedoms really just evolved as states centralized violence and consolidated their authority, and women's rights have changed a lot during the last century. LGBT rights are hardly "Western values" until the last twenty years or so.

I agree, it's a vague and evolving concept.
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Postby United States of Natan » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:52 am

(Full disclosure, I'm politically liberal, not conservative)

Honestly, I think the primary reason you see so few Muslims in right-wing parties here in the West is because of the pervasive islamophobia within the right, coupled with the far left's embrace of and acceptance of Muslim values which, admittedly, if such values were displayed by a Christian, would be considered intolerable. If there was a church here in the U.S. that made it's women wear full-body coverings to "prevent them from arousing men", would that be considered acceptable by the far left? Doubtful. Now, to be clear, I fully support a person's freely-made choice to dress how they want, even for religious reasons. However, it's admittedly perplexing how the far left so willingly accepts Muslim social values which, coming from a Christian, would be considered extremely conservative and not in line with the values of a liberal party. Linda Sarsour is indeed surprisingly openly conservative, and yet she's idolized by the far left.

And obviously, in western countries, Muslims don't have the numbers to overtake Christian conservatives, but I don't see conservative racism declining anytime soon; in fact, as conservatism continues to decline, right-wing parties will become MORE racist, because while the overall membership declines, the ones leaving are less racist. The ones who stay are often more racist, so as such, you'll have more concentrated racism. Just look at the GOP; thousands, if not millions, have left because the GOP has become too racist, and as they've left, the racists are the ones staying behind. That's why you see support for trump among republicans not declining as much as it should; those who oppose Trump are leaving to become independents or join the Democratic Party, while those who stay behind are his biggest fans, and as such, support amongst the GOP hasn't declined much; because it's become more concentrated.
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Postby Darussalam » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:52 am

Ifreann wrote:And as I said, I think that some of the people who grumble at this century will convert to Islam and use it to promote their social conservative agenda, but I don't expect it to take the top spot in that particular league from Christianity. Christianity is too thoroughly entwined with the "European"/"Western" identity that conservatives want to enforce.

Romans probably used to think that too about their Old Gods. At any case, this is less a prediction that Western conservatives will convert to Islam en masse, and more "You're losing, social conservatism is losing outside Islam anyway, and there will be more Muslims overtime who have higher chance of actually winning the culture war. Why not join the winning side?" sort of poke to them.
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Postby LiberNovusAmericae » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:56 am

United States of Natan wrote:(Full disclosure, I'm politically liberal, not conservative)

Honestly, I think the primary reason you see so few Muslims in right-wing parties here in the West is because of the pervasive islamophobia within the right, coupled with the far left's embrace of and acceptance of Muslim values which, admittedly, if such values were displayed by a Christian, would be considered intolerable. If there was a church here in the U.S. that made it's women wear full-body coverings to "prevent them from arousing men", would that be considered acceptable by the far left? Doubtful. Now, to be clear, I fully support a person's freely-made choice to dress how they want, even for religious reasons. However, it's admittedly perplexing how the far left so willingly accepts Muslim social values which, coming from a Christian, would be considered extremely conservative and not in line with the values of a liberal party. Linda Sarsour is indeed surprisingly openly conservative, and yet she's idolized by the far left.

The OP is right about one thing. Extremely conservative Islam is tolerated because most of the people who practice it happen to be brown.
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Postby The Shrailleeni Empire » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:57 am

I usually don't get too involved in these things, but I'll admit to a polite interest in this theme. I have often thought about the bizarre alliance between the Left and Western Islam that has become commonplace lately. Muslims are seen as natural allies to progressives because the Right villainizes both groups, but the truth is that most Muslims more closely align to Christian conservative values on issues like LGBT, abortion, and traditional morality. It has made for very awkward bedfellows at times.

I have a few challenges for the OP though, ignoring the blatant Islamophobia and outdated ideology of everyone else:

First, you are assuming that social conservatism as it is traditionally understood has a future. Isn't it true that conservative morality might simply evolve with time as all morality does? Jordan Peterson is a good example of a non-religious conservatism based on a return to rationality (although I do not agree with the man on several things).

Second, Islam has not journeyed to "the West" unchanged by the experience. Many Muslims living in Europe and North America have experienced the same challenges to traditional interpretations of their faith that Christians are experiencing. Example, many Muslim women in the West view the hijab, and even the burka, as a form of empowerment, precisely because Western society frowns upon wearing it. Many also choose not to wear it, but do not feel any less strongly about their faith. This attitude of choice is relatively new.

Third, the "high social cohesion" of Muslim societies is not as monolithic as you make it seem. For example, there do exist debates even in traditional Sunni circles about whether or not death for apostasy should be applied in all cases, the infamous haddud debates. And many Muslims who live in the West belong to persecuted or minority branches of Islam, such as the Ahmadiyya and the Nazari, who have very different attitudes toward social conservatism. Even in Europe, which encouraged ghettoization of its Muslim communities resulting in more segregation than in Canada or the United States, Islamic communities don't exist as complete monoliths, and it is difficult to say what that future holds for these communities if policies were to change.

And finally, this isn't a question but if you expect the Right to overcome their xenophobia to ally with Islamic conservatives, you are kidding yourself. The Right is just as wrongly convinced that traditional Islam is their enemy as the Left is wrongly convinced it is their ally.
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Postby United States of Natan » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:06 am

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:
United States of Natan wrote:(Full disclosure, I'm politically liberal, not conservative)

Honestly, I think the primary reason you see so few Muslims in right-wing parties here in the West is because of the pervasive islamophobia within the right, coupled with the far left's embrace of and acceptance of Muslim values which, admittedly, if such values were displayed by a Christian, would be considered intolerable. If there was a church here in the U.S. that made it's women wear full-body coverings to "prevent them from arousing men", would that be considered acceptable by the far left? Doubtful. Now, to be clear, I fully support a person's freely-made choice to dress how they want, even for religious reasons. However, it's admittedly perplexing how the far left so willingly accepts Muslim social values which, coming from a Christian, would be considered extremely conservative and not in line with the values of a liberal party. Linda Sarsour is indeed surprisingly openly conservative, and yet she's idolized by the far left.

The OP is right about one thing. Extremely conservative Islam is tolerated because most of the people who practice it happen to be brown.

That's sadly accurate. It's also why the far left has a lot of antisemitism, because most Jews, despite being a minority ourselves, are white, and a lot on the far left forget that we're still a marginalized minority as well.

Further, I'll also add that a lot on the far left seem to forget that Muslims, while a minority here, are very much the majority in the middle east, and that Israel, comparitively, is essentially a religious and ethnic minority country surrounded by dozens of countries with people who make up the majority of the region, and who hate Jews. And it's frankly absurd to suggest that people of color are themselves incapable of bigotry; in fact, we see bigotry from Louis Farrakhan, Linda Sarsour, and Tamika Mallory. Just because they're people of color doesn't mean the antisemitism you see from them is justified.
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Valrifell
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Postby Valrifell » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:07 am

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Darussalam wrote:And why is that?


Most forms of the religion are just not compatible with western civilization.


Everything is compatible when we're talking about two poorly defined concepts that exist solely in the abstract!

WRA, I don't know how else to tell you this, but the rules are made up and the points don't matter.
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:10 am

Darussalam wrote:
Ifreann wrote:And as I said, I think that some of the people who grumble at this century will convert to Islam and use it to promote their social conservative agenda, but I don't expect it to take the top spot in that particular league from Christianity. Christianity is too thoroughly entwined with the "European"/"Western" identity that conservatives want to enforce.

Romans probably used to think that too about their Old Gods.

I imagine they did, and while I'm no historian, I understand that for several hundred years they were right, until one of their emperors fancied this cool new religion. And that's not really how Europe works any more. We no longer have people with the authority to change the religion of our nations.
At any case, this is less a prediction that Western conservatives will convert to Islam en masse, and more "You're losing, social conservatism is losing outside Islam anyway, and there will be more Muslims overtime who have higher chance of actually winning the culture war. Why not join the winning side?" sort of poke to them.

I don't think they will, because opposing Islam is a pretty critical element of their conservatism.


United States of Natan wrote:(Full disclosure, I'm politically liberal, not conservative)

Honestly, I think the primary reason you see so few Muslims in right-wing parties here in the West is because of the pervasive islamophobia within the right, coupled with the far left's embrace of and acceptance of Muslim values which, admittedly, if such values were displayed by a Christian, would be considered intolerable. If there was a church here in the U.S. that made it's women wear full-body coverings to "prevent them from arousing men", would that be considered acceptable by the far left? Doubtful. Now, to be clear, I fully support a person's freely-made choice to dress how they want, even for religious reasons. However, it's admittedly perplexing how the far left so willingly accepts Muslim social values which, coming from a Christian, would be considered extremely conservative and not in line with the values of a liberal party. Linda Sarsour is indeed surprisingly openly conservative, and yet she's idolized by the far left.

The political interests of Muslims and liberals often align in nations where the conservatives and Christian and Islamophobic. That doesn't mean that liberals support the tenets of Islam, obviously. And in nations where Christianity is the dominant religion, Christianity is going to be the religion most criticised in public. Again, obviously.
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