Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore - Fixing the rust belt cities

[Novus America]

Improving the lives of the workers and the capitalists is not mutually exclusive...
If your goal is to make Detroit better, sweat shops do not do that.

Sure industrial policy is complicated. You have to weigh a variety of considerations and factors against each other.

But historically countries with no industrial policies fair badly when competing against countries who have effective industrial policies.

Plus the US had industrial policies the first nearly 200 years of its existence.
Some worked very well.

Since the abandonment of those policies manufacturing has struggled.

Part of that policy includes repressing unions and shooting workers on strike. Maybe we should consider re-implementing that. The negative effect of labor resistance on development is not as widely known as it should.

The only country without substantial industrial policy I can think of is Hong Kong. It didn't fare that badly. Generally what happened is that countries with industrial policy compete with other countries with industrial policy.

At any case, whatever industrial policy being designated shouldn't be made with the interest of a few low-productivity manufacturing workers in mind.

The US is another country without a substantial industrial policy.
It has not worked. But it did when we had one.

Repressing unions and violent stike breaking was not always part of the US. It did happen.
It was not good.
And we do not want to go back to that. Again cooperative labor relations (like Japan and Germany) are better than adversarial ones.

Low productivity manufacturing will not work here.
But high productivity manufacturing can (we still have a large manufacturing sector even if it has declined somewhat), and ours is one of the most productive (actually we have higher productivity than Japan).

[Cetacea]

And all of that is awful and not how a city ought to be run

Nobody is accusing Baltimore of being well run.

having been a council member in a very small city I do have sympathy for both sides, there are huge restrictions on what councils can do, limited budgets, lots of infrastructure and basics to pay for before getting to the social enhancement projects and the dealing with the lobbyist with their hands out.

And abandoned industrial areas are harder still - the reality is that people either move 'up' to suburbs where they can commute to work, move to where the jobs are or remain and struggle. So when an Industry dies either you convince an new industry to invest in re-purposing the existing site and bringing new employment or you turn it into commercial/residential and get accused of either creating ghettos or gentrification of poor neighbourhoods.

That said something should be done...

[San Lumen]

Nobody is accusing Baltimore of being well run.

having been a council member in a very small city I do have sympathy for both sides, there are huge restrictions on what councils can do, limited budgets, lots of infrastructure and basics to pay for before getting to the social enhancement projects and the dealing with the lobbyist with their hands out.

And abandoned industrial areas are harder still - the reality is that people either move 'up' to suburbs where they can commute to work, move to where the jobs are or remain and struggle. So when an Industry dies either you convince an new industry to invest in re-purposing the existing site and bringing new employment or you turn it into commercial/residential and get accused of either creating ghettos or gentrification of poor neighbourhoods.

That said something should be done...

What do you propose?

[Hammer Britannia]

I'm surprised nobody in this thread has suggested the one and only solution...

Stainless Steel, that'll prevent rust belts from forming

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Looks about as religious for me as free trade.

Also huh ~countries which depend more heavily on trade for its development are better off utilizing free trade~ I wonder what does that conclude?

I am not one who says protectionism is some magic bullet means to prosperity.
And I support NAFTA. But I do believe moderate protectionism is a useful tool in the right circumstances.

Problem is there are people for whom free trade is an absolute good and all protectionism is bad. Those are the religionists. But those people ran our country for decades.

Both trade and protectionism are merely tools. Properly applied in the right circumstances they work. Improperly applied in the wrong circumstances they do not.

But we can safely state our 1970s and post 2000 trade policies did not turn out well. So I disagree with the people want to keep them.

Logically free trade works better for countries with a high trade to GDP ratio like Singapore and less well for countries with a low GDP to trade ratio (like the US).

But size is a big factor as well.

Singapore and Hong Kong cannot possibly build, grow, mine and produce most of what they need given the lack of land and resources.

Obviously a city state which cannot grow its own food and has little oil has to trade for those things. It cannot build factories bigger than the land it has.
Unlike the US which can produce those things at home.

Again a whole lot of factors go into it.

The US is fortunate to have lots of land, lots of resources and a big enough population to be viable at a low trade to GDP ratio.

In the 60s it was only 9%. Today it is 26.6%.

By comparison Singapore is 322%, Hong Kong 375%.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... -GDP_ratio

Trade to GDP ratio is not the only factor. But certainly a big one (although it is influenced by other factors).

Hong Kong is way too densely populated to have room to grow enough food for everyone there. Not sure how its economy pays for the food (I'm assuming tourism's a huge part of it) but anyone who's been there would have to wonder how the hell they would feed them if they couldn't import food from overseas. They can't live off fishing the surrounding water or they'd all get scurvy.

And that really drives home the value of free trade generally. You need to either trade with other countries, or have enough variety in geography to extract every type of natural resource you would need for your economy. The USA has a lot of variety in geography, but I'm skeptical it's enough that they've nothing to gain from importing.

And that's just counting natural resources. It's possible the nationalities processing them have different natural skills in different countries as well. We shouldn't rule it out.

[Novus America]

I am not one who says protectionism is some magic bullet means to prosperity.
And I support NAFTA. But I do believe moderate protectionism is a useful tool in the right circumstances.

Problem is there are people for whom free trade is an absolute good and all protectionism is bad. Those are the religionists. But those people ran our country for decades.

Both trade and protectionism are merely tools. Properly applied in the right circumstances they work. Improperly applied in the wrong circumstances they do not.

But we can safely state our 1970s and post 2000 trade policies did not turn out well. So I disagree with the people want to keep them.

Logically free trade works better for countries with a high trade to GDP ratio like Singapore and less well for countries with a low GDP to trade ratio (like the US).

But size is a big factor as well.

Singapore and Hong Kong cannot possibly build, grow, mine and produce most of what they need given the lack of land and resources.

Obviously a city state which cannot grow its own food and has little oil has to trade for those things. It cannot build factories bigger than the land it has.
Unlike the US which can produce those things at home.

Again a whole lot of factors go into it.

The US is fortunate to have lots of land, lots of resources and a big enough population to be viable at a low trade to GDP ratio.

In the 60s it was only 9%. Today it is 26.6%.

By comparison Singapore is 322%, Hong Kong 375%.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... -GDP_ratio

Trade to GDP ratio is not the only factor. But certainly a big one (although it is influenced by other factors).

Hong Kong is way too densely populated to have room to grow enough food for everyone there. Not sure how its economy pays for the food (I'm assuming tourism's a huge part of it) but anyone who's been there would have to wonder how the hell they would feed them if they couldn't import food from overseas. They can't live off fishing the surrounding water or they'd all get scurvy.

And that really drives home the value of free trade generally. You need to either trade with other countries, or have enough variety in geography to extract every type of natural resource you would need for your economy. The USA has a lot of variety in geography, but I'm skeptical it's enough that they've nothing to gain from importing.

And that's just counting natural resources. It's possible the nationalities processing them have different natural skills in different countries as well. We shouldn't rule it out.

Sure there can be benefits from trade, but there can be harm too.
Nobody here is calling for a ban on all trade, just restrictions on the more destructive aspects of a race to the bottom on wages, working conditions and the environment.

And no, there is absolutely zero evidence of race based “natural skills” regarding the manufacturing of goods. And even if there were you can simply import people of those nationalities.
Our shortage of manufacturing workers could be resolved by taking in manufacturing workers from China.

[Petrolheadia]

The problem is trade policies. We cannot keep pretending free trade can actually apply to subsidized industries like autos. Sure we supported our auto industry less, and less effectively than Japan and Germany did. But that is not because their vehicles are inherently better, or because we cannot produce our own. It is a failure of government policies.

Umm most people in Detroit have already relocated anyways.
And people are still leaving. I fail to see what purpose subsidizing the depopulation of the city accomplishes.

Sure rebuilding the Detroit auto industry to its pre 70s glory days is not going to happen.
But there are other things Detroit can do or make.

Are they things that require one to be across the river from Windsor?

No?

Then abandon it completely and seal it off so we never have to worry about it again.

Japan built its car industry on protectionism, subsidies and intellectual property theft as much as it did on innovation and skill.

Curious, then, that Japan's more high-tech than the USA in almost every other context as well.

The problem with Detroit wasn't American auto industry, it was overpowered unions.

Just look at the auto industry in the less-unionized South. Toyota in Kentucky and Texas, Toyota and Nissan in Missisippi, Honda and Hyundai in Alabama...

[Conserative Morality]

The problem with Detroit wasn't American auto industry, it was overpowered unions.

Just look at the auto industry in the less-unionized South. Toyota in Kentucky and Texas, Toyota and Nissan in Missisippi, Honda and Hyundai in Alabama...

>> Honda
>> Toyota
>> Nisan
>> Hyundai

Yes, clearly the problem is not American auto industry, as these completely American companies in other parts of the country show.

[Petrolheadia]

The problem with Detroit wasn't American auto industry, it was overpowered unions.

Just look at the auto industry in the less-unionized South. Toyota in Kentucky and Texas, Toyota and Nissan in Missisippi, Honda and Hyundai in Alabama...

>> Honda
>> Toyota
>> Nisan
>> Hyundai

Yes, clearly the problem is not American auto industry, as these completely American companies in other parts of the country show.

Which shows that Americans can make cars damn well, despite LUNA's comments about some Japanese innate superiority.

Many of those cars are designed in the companies' US research labs - for example, the Tundra or Sequoia are mostly done by California's Toyota studio, and made in Texas. Except that they don't have to deal with United Auto Workers' bullshit.

And then you have GM in Texas, Kentucky, Missisippi and Tennessee and Ford in Missouri and Kentucky, as well as un-unionized Tesla in California.

[Big Jim P]

Quit electing Democrats.

[San Lumen]

Quit electing Democrats.

A republican is magically going to fix Detroit, Cleveland or Gary? They actively try to prevent people there from voting.

[Cekoviu]

Quit electing Democrats.

It's easy to try to blame all the problems on your opponents, but I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

[Tendiesia]

Quit electing Democrats.

It's easy to try to blame all the problems on your opponents, but I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Mainstream American politics is literally just "The other side is everything wrong with this universe." I, as a right winger, am more welcome on r/chapotraphouse than I am on r/politicalhumor. That says something about the Democrats and Republicans.

[Big Jim P]

Quit electing Democrats.

It's easy to try to blame all the problems on your opponents, but I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Well, at least Detroit was doing well until the Dems took over.

[San Lumen]

It's easy to try to blame all the problems on your opponents, but I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Well, at least Detroit was doing well until the Dems took over.

And a Republican mayor or city council is going to magically fix it when they actively try to suppress votes in Wayne County?

[Paddy O Fernature]

Well, at least Detroit was doing well until the Dems took over.

And a Republican mayor or city council is going to magically fix it when they actively try to suppress votes in Wayne County?

Lets find out, shall we? Can't do any worse then what we already have.

[San Lumen]

And a Republican mayor or city council is going to magically fix it when they actively try to suppress votes in Wayne County?

Lets find out, shall we? Can't do any worse then what we already have.

Why would they vote for a mayor of political party whose made it harder for them to vote if at all?

[Ethel mermania]

>> Honda
>> Toyota
>> Nisan
>> Hyundai

Yes, clearly the problem is not American auto industry, as these completely American companies in other parts of the country show.

Which shows that Americans can make cars damn well, despite LUNA's comments about some Japanese innate superiority.

Many of those cars are designed in the companies' US research labs - for example, the Tundra or Sequoia are mostly done by California's Toyota studio, and made in Texas. Except that they don't have to deal with United Auto Workers' bullshit.

And then you have GM in Texas, Kentucky, Missisippi and Tennessee and Ford in Missouri and Kentucky, as well as un-unionized Tesla in California.

Tesla's QC is shit. And the Japanese did adopt Demming long before the Americans did.

[Sicaris]

Quit electing Democrats.

Yeah, that also helps.

A lot actually

[San Lumen]

Quit electing Democrats.

Yeah, that also helps.

A lot actually

And why would these places vote for someone of a political party whose made it quite clear they dont want them voting?

[Petrolheadia]

Which shows that Americans can make cars damn well, despite LUNA's comments about some Japanese innate superiority.

Many of those cars are designed in the companies' US research labs - for example, the Tundra or Sequoia are mostly done by California's Toyota studio, and made in Texas. Except that they don't have to deal with United Auto Workers' bullshit.

And then you have GM in Texas, Kentucky, Missisippi and Tennessee and Ford in Missouri and Kentucky, as well as un-unionized Tesla in California.

Tesla's QC is shit.

With that sort of deadlines, it's not a surprise.

[Novus America]

Quit electing Democrats.

Yeah, that also helps.

A lot actually

True, but not electing Republicans either. How about independents not bound by ruinous party ideology at all?

[Sicaris]

Yeah, that also helps.

A lot actually

And why would these places vote for someone of a political party whose made it quite clear they dont want them voting?

Hm? What do you mean?

Most Republicans are completely fine with Black people, if you mean that.

Generalizing and assuming is not a good way to conduct accurate tests, you know. There’s a reason they aren’t used too much when you want to be on the dot.

[Sicaris]

Yeah, that also helps.

A lot actually

True, but not electing Republicans either. How about independents not bound by ruinous party ideology at all?

Hopefully. But at the same time, both parties have a stranglehold on politics so I doubt much will change. The Republicans are still better than the Dems, at least. And I can live with them for now.

[San Lumen]

And why would these places vote for someone of a political party whose made it quite clear they dont want them voting?

Hm? What do you mean?

Most Republicans are completely fine with Black people, if you mean that.

Generalizing and assuming is not a good way to conduct accurate tests, you know. There’s a reason they aren’t used too much when you want to be on the dot.

Republicans have passed many laws to suppress votes of non whites such as voter id and gerrymandering the legislature to dilute their votes.