Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore - Fixing the rust belt cities

[San Lumen]

What jobs are you called unproductive?

Auto workers in the 70s for one? Amazon warehouse workers are another example.

So what';s your solution then to helping these places come back? Putting thousands out of work because you see their jobs as unproductive?

[Petrolheadia]

Actually not really. It was trade, not wages.

QED, if you are so uncompetitive then businesses will flee from your area. Most auto industries moved from the rust belt to the south for instance

Especially when the government strangles its own country's industry with draconian emission laws.

[Petrolheadia]

Auto workers in the 70s for one? Amazon warehouse workers are another example.

So what';s your solution then to helping these places come back? Putting thousands out of work because you see their jobs as unproductive?

No, paying them the wages they deserve.

[San Lumen]

So what';s your solution then to helping these places come back? Putting thousands out of work because you see their jobs as unproductive?

No, paying them the wages they deserve.

I don't disagree

[Petrolheadia]

No, paying them the wages they deserve.

I don't disagree

So you should disagree with the United Auto Workers.

[San Lumen]

I don't disagree

So you should disagree with the United Auto Workers.

What is wrong with them asking for living wages?

[Novus America]

Actually not really. It was trade, not wages.

QED, if you are so uncompetitive then businesses will flee from your area. Most auto industries moved from the rust belt to the south for instance

Sure, excessive regulation and union power did play a role.
But it was not the auto industry alone that created the rust belt.
Detroit (in addition to defense industries) was the only one really hit by the automotive industry.

Also you ignore Japanese protectionism.
Japan never reciprocated, and did not rise up in the automotive industry by free market principles.
It was government industrial policy.

[Novus America]

Actually not really. It was trade, not wages.
And both Democrats and Republicans pushes the outsourcing.

If you do not allow unrestricted trade with places relying on low wages instead of a true comparative advantage, a wage race to the bottom does not happen.

And customers pay big bucks for shoddy stuff.

Auto workersin the 70s for one? Amazon warehouse workers are another example.

If a car can leave the factory with bottles behind door panels or another model's dashboard trim, someone fucked up.

Oh quality competition is good. It leads to higher quality.
Wage competition is bad, it leads to lower wages.

[Petrolheadia]

When it means that the workers can screw up whatever they want and receive big bucks for it, it is awful. Part of why US-made Japanese cars keep the quality up quite well is because they are built in factories where crappy employees can be sacked and unions don't drive up costs, 'cause the UAW is not there.

The US carmakers' decline was largely caused by the lefties at UAW and the ones who instituted Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency, penalizing the US carmakers for what they did well - building big cars.

Actually Japan has lower productivity than the US.
https://www.tokyoreview.net/2018/07/jap ... -overwork/
Japanese working conditions are poor.
They rely on overwork, not productivity.

If an employee makes a lot of cars because he works long, this is high productivity.

And no, Japan's gains weren't and aren't based on overwork. For example, do you think in the 70s Toyota outproduced British Leyland 8:1 based on working hours?

[Great Minarchistan]

When it means that the workers can screw up whatever they want and receive big bucks for it, it is awful. Part of why US-made Japanese cars keep the quality up quite well is because they are built in factories where crappy employees can be sacked and unions don't drive up costs, 'cause the UAW is not there.

The US carmakers' decline was largely caused by the lefties at UAW and the ones who instituted Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency, penalizing the US carmakers for what they did well - building big cars.

Actually Japan has lower productivity than the US.
https://www.tokyoreview.net/2018/07/jap ... -overwork/
Japanese working conditions are poor.
They rely on overwork, not productivity.

two sides of the same coin, if you have a low productivity while atst needing more income to feed your family (high dependency ratio) you'll need to work more

[Great Minarchistan]

Auto workers in the 70s for one? Amazon warehouse workers are another example.

So what';s your solution then to helping these places come back? Putting thousands out of work because you see their jobs as unproductive?

burn down the uaw

[Novus America]

I don't disagree

So you should disagree with the United Auto Workers.

Sure the did often ask for too much.
But also treating our workers like Japanese workers would not be good either.

You are correct though that adversarial labor relations does not work.
Cooperative labor relations where business and labor work together is needed.
Which would require a complete overhaul of our labor policies.

[Novus America]

Actually Japan has lower productivity than the US.
https://www.tokyoreview.net/2018/07/jap ... -overwork/
Japanese working conditions are poor.
They rely on overwork, not productivity.

two sides of the same coin, if you have a low productivity while atst needing more income to feed your family (high dependency ratio) you'll need to work more

Which is not good.

[Great Minarchistan]

QED, if you are so uncompetitive then businesses will flee from your area. Most auto industries moved from the rust belt to the south for instance

Sure, excessive regulation and union power did play a role.
But it was not the auto industry alone that created the rust belt.
Detroit (in addition to defense industries) was the only one really hit by the automotive industry.

Also you ignore Japanese protectionism.
Japan never reciprocated, and did not rise up in the automotive industry by free market principles.
It was government industrial policy.

never mentioned japan, besides the fact that chicago and baltimore are also included in the rust belt (which was ravaged especially due to the auto industry leaving said region)

[Petrolheadia]

QED, if you are so uncompetitive then businesses will flee from your area. Most auto industries moved from the rust belt to the south for instance

Sure, excessive regulation and union power did play a role.
But it was not the auto industry alone that created the rust belt.
Detroit (in addition to defense industries) was the only one really hit by the automotive industry.

Also you ignore Japanese protectionism.
Japan never reciprocated, and did not rise up in the automotive industry by free market principles.
It was government industrial policy.

What sort of "protectionism" do you mean?

Also, while the Japanese industry might have enjoyed some protection, it mainly succeeded due to export sales (which were hampered by import quotas in countries like the US, France or UK, or outright bans in places like the USSR).

[Great Minarchistan]

two sides of the same coin, if you have a low productivity while atst needing more income to feed your family (high dependency ratio) you'll need to work more

Which is not good.

your other option is starving to death, or you can also pray to mother nature to get free shit but guess that doesnt work

[Petrolheadia]

And customers pay big bucks for shoddy stuff.


If a car can leave the factory with bottles behind door panels or another model's dashboard trim, someone fucked up.

Oh quality competition is good. It leads to higher quality.
Wage competition is bad, it leads to lower wages.

It also leads to lower prices and more money left for other spending.

And that's only in the mentioned-by-you seller's market,,where there is more workers than jobs.

[San Lumen]

Which is not good.

your other option is starving to death, or you can also pray to mother nature to get free shit but guess that doesnt work

Do tell your solution to fixing these municipalities

[Great Minarchistan]

your other option is starving to death, or you can also pray to mother nature to get free shit but guess that doesnt work

Do tell your solution to fixing these municipalities

I just said it, burning down the UAW would grant a large advancement in talks to bring back the auto industry to the rust belt

[Petrolheadia]

your other option is starving to death, or you can also pray to mother nature to get free shit but guess that doesnt work

Do tell your solution to fixing these municipalities

I think that at this point, you can't really fix them.

I mean, you probably could, but it would bring a lot less gains than investing in other places.

[Novus America]

Actually Japan has lower productivity than the US.
https://www.tokyoreview.net/2018/07/jap ... -overwork/
Japanese working conditions are poor.
They rely on overwork, not productivity.

If an employee makes a lot of cars because he works long, this is high productivity.

And no, Japan's gains weren't and aren't based on overwork. For example, do you think in the 70s Toyota outproduced British Leyland 8:1 based on working hours?

No, productivity is value produced/hours worked.
You cannot increase productivity by working longer.
Working hours is the denominator.

Productivity is not production.

Japanese gains are not really so much a problem anymore, but when they were it was overwork and government industrial policy played a huge part.

Japan has lost a lot of its edge.

[San Lumen]

Do tell your solution to fixing these municipalities

I just said it, burning down the UAW would grant a large advancement in talks to bring back the auto industry to the rust belt

and that's somehow going to help the poverty in Detroit or Baltimore? There ought to be unsafe conditions at the auto plants as well?

[San Lumen]

Do tell your solution to fixing these municipalities

I think that at this point, you can't really fix them.

I mean, you probably could, but it would bring a lot less gains than investing in other places.

In other words just leave them to rot? The state and federal government should just ignore them completely?

[Petrolheadia]

I just said it, burning down the UAW would grant a large advancement in talks to bring back the auto industry to the rust belt

and that's somehow going to help the poverty in Detroit or Baltimore? There ought to be unsafe conditions at the auto plants as well?

The non-unionized plants are safe. They also make good cars at competitive costs.

The UAW and the government already let the Japanese wreck Americans in midprice cars, let's end the UAW and CAFE before the Koreans wreck in low-end.

[Great Minarchistan]

You cannot increase productivity by working longer.

You pretty much can by speeding up the accumulation of human capital/skills and by shaving the relative deadweight loss provoked by work (e.g. travel time to workplace), but that's stochastic rather than static -- latter of which is being discussed