NationStates

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:28 am**

Hammer Britannia wrote:I'm surprised nobody has suggested the sane and realistic solution

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Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:46 am**

Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:Grew up in Detroit. I can guarantee you Democrats didn't kill the city. White flight did. Even the staunchest right wing city in the world could not survive the loss of the wealthiest 65% of it's population.

You want to save the rust belt? Ever notice that all the military bases and government offices are located on the coasts? Sure you can find some inland but by and large most military and beaurocratic spending effectively subsidizes a handful of very lucky states. Start with that.

Edit: btw Detroit legalized weed years ago.

There are lots of reasons why, but blaming Democrats is easier and more politically beneficial to the right.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 5:35 am**

Thanatttynia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
I dont think we ought to be forcing companies into doing things but they could instead of pitting places against each other going to communities like Detroit and helping them by hiring local people. You could turn Detroit around in a few years time.

I agree. But how do we get them to do that when they are a company driven by profit?

Well through various regulations and incentives that make it profitable to do what we want, and unprofitable to engage in harmful behavior.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 6:32 am**

British Tackeettlaus wrote:My opinion? Need to take some money out the suburbs to get the schools up to standard. Need to end the war on drugs and focus on rehabilitation so that more families are kept together. You need real investment in these communities. You need to give the hopeless hope.

The way public schools are funded needs to be entirely changed nationwide. In most other countries, funding for schools are distributed at the federal or state level. Only in the US are property taxes the primary means of funding schools, meaning that an affluent suburb's high school with 200 students might have more funding than a poor inner city's school of 2000 students. The wealth of one's neighborhood should not determine the quality of a student's education and a rich area shouldn't be able to install a second tennis court at their school while poor families' kids have 10 year old textbooks and half the bathroom stall doors are broken.

The War on Drugs does need to end, not just in these cities but nationwide. Personal possession and personal use should not be a criminal offense regardless of the drug. Cities need to open safe injection sites at which drug users can receive clean paraphernalia, get their drugs tested for adulterants, and where trained staff members are standing by in case of overdose. If we had such places no one would be shooting up in parking garages and McDonald's bathrooms and far fewer people would die. Rehab should be fully covered under a universal health care system.

We also need to give housing to the homeless. When there are far more empty houses and apartments than there are homeless people, something is clearly wrong.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:40 am**

Mystic Warriors wrote:
Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:Grew up in Detroit. I can guarantee you Democrats didn't kill the city. White flight did. Even the staunchest right wing city in the world could not survive the loss of the wealthiest 65% of it's population.

You want to save the rust belt? Ever notice that all the military bases and government offices are located on the coasts? Sure you can find some inland but by and large most military and beaurocratic spending effectively subsidizes a handful of very lucky states. Start with that.

Edit: btw Detroit legalized weed years ago.

There are lots of reasons why, but blaming Democrats is easier and more politically beneficial to the right.

and lets not forget that suburbs where quite literally founded on racism

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 9:51 am**

San Lumen wrote:
Mystic Warriors wrote:

There are lots of reasons why, but blaming Democrats is easier and more politically beneficial to the right.

and lets not forget that suburbs where quite literally founded on racism

Not really. (Missuse of literally too, the were literally founded on the ground they are on) Racism did play a role in white flight but that became a bigger thing after the first suburbs were first established.

Overpopulation and the baby boom made the suburbs necessary to accommodate large families and a growing population.
Even cities that had a very small minority population developed suburbs.
Also there were minority suburbs as well.
Black flight was also a thing.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:01 am**

[quote="San Lumen";p="35355346]

and lets not forget that suburbs where quite literally founded on racism[/quote]

Depends where in the country you are. Many suburbs started a farming communities or railway refueling stops that were later developed.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:09 am**

Autumn Wind wrote:[quote="San Lumen";p="35355346]

and lets not forget that suburbs where quite literally founded on racism[/quote]

Depends where in the country you are. Many suburbs started a farming communities or railway refueling stops that were later developed.[/quote]

True but in the US racism was a big factor

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:10 am**

Novus America wrote:
San Lumen wrote:and lets not forget that suburbs where quite literally founded on racism

Not really. (Missuse of literally too, the were literally founded on the ground they are on) Racism did play a role in white flight but that became a bigger thing after the first suburbs were first established.

Overpopulation and the baby boom made the suburbs necessary to accommodate large families and a growing population.
Even cities that had a very small minority population developed suburbs.
Also there were minority suburbs as well.
Black flight was also a thing.

There a very few minority suburbs. Most are overwhelmingly white

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:28 am**

San Lumen wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Not really. (Missuse of literally too, the were literally founded on the ground they are on) Racism did play a role in white flight but that became a bigger thing after the first suburbs were first established.

Overpopulation and the baby boom made the suburbs necessary to accommodate large families and a growing population.
Even cities that had a very small minority population developed suburbs.
Also there were minority suburbs as well.
Black flight was also a thing.

There a very few minority suburbs. Most are overwhelmingly white

Depends on the city and location. Especially now, Asians tend to live in the suburbs very often as well. And many black people have moved to suburbs.

Sure racism did play a role in the white flight, but it was not only racism that made people leave the cities.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:31 am**

carpetbomb all of the three and give a seven day previous notice telling people to evacuate, who needs to fix wrecked cities without perspectives of repair anyways

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:31 am**

Novus America wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
There a very few minority suburbs. Most are overwhelmingly white

Depends on the city and location. Especially now, Asians tend to live in the suburbs very often as well. And many black people have moved to suburbs.

Sure racism did play a role in the white flight, but it was not only racism that made people leave the cities.

There has been some movement but many suburbs remain overwhelmingly white

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:32 am**

Mystic Warriors wrote:
Unstoppable Empire of Doom wrote:Grew up in Detroit. I can guarantee you Democrats didn't kill the city. White flight did. Even the staunchest right wing city in the world could not survive the loss of the wealthiest 65% of it's population.

You want to save the rust belt? Ever notice that all the military bases and government offices are located on the coasts? Sure you can find some inland but by and large most military and beaurocratic spending effectively subsidizes a handful of very lucky states. Start with that.

Edit: btw Detroit legalized weed years ago.

There are lots of reasons why, but blaming Democrats is easier and more politically beneficial to the right.

White flight happened due to democrats and auto unions [propped by democrats] pushing up wages and labor conditions to insufferable levels at which point it was just not worth it producing vehicles in what is now considered the rust belt

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:33 am**

San Lumen wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Depends on the city and location. Especially now, Asians tend to live in the suburbs very often as well. And many black people have moved to suburbs.

Sure racism did play a role in the white flight, but it was not only racism that made people leave the cities.

There has been some movement but many suburbs remain overwhelmingly white

Yes many suburbs do remain mostly white. That does not make them inherently bad though.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:33 am**

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Mystic Warriors wrote:

There are lots of reasons why, but blaming Democrats is easier and more politically beneficial to the right.

White flight happened due to democrats and auto unions [propped by democrats] pushing up wages and labor conditions to insufferable levels at which point it was just not worth it producing vehicles in what is now considered the rust belt

Yeah because how awful for someone to make a living wage

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:34 am**

Novus America wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
There has been some movement but many suburbs remain overwhelmingly white

Yes many suburbs do remain mostly white. That does not make them inherently bad though.

No it doesn't and wasn't trying to imply that.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:35 am**

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Mystic Warriors wrote:

There are lots of reasons why, but blaming Democrats is easier and more politically beneficial to the right.

White flight happened due to democrats and auto unions [propped by democrats] pushing up wages and labor conditions to insufferable levels at which point it was just not worth it producing vehicles in what is now considered the rust belt

UAW - maximum fuckup, maximum pay.

If they have to tell their workers not to buy non-UAW-factory cars, what does it say about those things' competitiveness?

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:37 am**

San Lumen wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:White flight happened due to democrats and auto unions [propped by democrats] pushing up wages and labor conditions to insufferable levels at which point it was just not worth it producing vehicles in what is now considered the rust belt

Yeah because how awful for someone to make a living wage

when you are so unproductive that your job doesn't allow you to earn enough then maybe uhhh its your problem?

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:38 am**

Great Minarchistan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Yeah because how awful for someone to make a living wage

when you are so unproductive that your job doesn't allow you to earn enough then maybe uhhh its your problem?

What jobs are you called unproductive?

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:39 am**

Great Minarchistan wrote:
Mystic Warriors wrote:

There are lots of reasons why, but blaming Democrats is easier and more politically beneficial to the right.

White flight happened due to democrats and auto unions [propped by democrats] pushing up wages and labor conditions to insufferable levels at which point it was just not worth it producing vehicles in what is now considered the rust belt

Actually not really. It was trade, not wages.
And both Democrats and Republicans pushes the outsourcing.

If you do not allow unrestricted trade with places relying on low wages instead of a true comparative advantage, a wage race to the bottom does not happen.

If two business are competing for the same workers, the one paying less will have a harder time getting good employees.

If you use productivity to increase profitability and lower prices (and you must without labor outsourcing) your do not focus on lowering costs through slashing wages.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:39 am**

San Lumen wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:White flight happened due to democrats and auto unions [propped by democrats] pushing up wages and labor conditions to insufferable levels at which point it was just not worth it producing vehicles in what is now considered the rust belt

Yeah because how awful for someone to make a living wage

When it means that the workers can screw up whatever they want and receive big bucks for it, it is awful. Part of why US-made Japanese cars keep the quality up quite well is because they are built in factories where crappy employees can be sacked and unions don't drive up costs, 'cause the UAW is not there.

The US carmakers' decline was largely caused by the lefties at UAW and the ones who instituted Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency, penalizing the US carmakers for what they did well - building big cars.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:40 am**

San Lumen wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:when you are so unproductive that your job doesn't allow you to earn enough then maybe uhhh its your problem?

What jobs are you called unproductive?

Auto workers in the 70s for one? Amazon warehouse workers are another example.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:40 am**

Novus America wrote:Actually not really. It was trade, not wages.

QED, if you are so uncompetitive then businesses will flee from your area. Most auto industries moved from the rust belt to the south for instance

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:41 am**

Novus America wrote:
Great Minarchistan wrote:White flight happened due to democrats and auto unions [propped by democrats] pushing up wages and labor conditions to insufferable levels at which point it was just not worth it producing vehicles in what is now considered the rust belt

Actually not really. It was trade, not wages.
And both Democrats and Republicans pushes the outsourcing.

If you do not allow unrestricted trade with places relying on low wages instead of a true comparative advantage, a wage race to the bottom does not happen.

And customers pay big bucks for shoddy stuff.

Great Minarchistan wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
What jobs are you called unproductive?

Auto workersin the 70s for one? Amazon warehouse workers are another example.

If a car can leave the factory with bottles behind door panels or another model's dashboard trim, someone fucked up.

Posted: **Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:42 am**

Petrolheadia wrote:
San Lumen wrote:
Yeah because how awful for someone to make a living wage

When it means that the workers can screw up whatever they want and receive big bucks for it, it is awful. Part of why US-made Japanese cars keep the quality up quite well is because they are built in factories where crappy employees can be sacked and unions don't drive up costs, 'cause the UAW is not there.

The US carmakers' decline was largely caused by the lefties at UAW and the ones who instituted Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency, penalizing the US carmakers for what they did well - building big cars.

Actually Japan has lower productivity than the US.
https://www.tokyoreview.net/2018/07/jap ... -overwork/
Japanese working conditions are poor.
They rely on overwork, not productivity.

NationStates

Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore - Fixing the rust belt cities