Chicago, Detroit, Baltimore - Fixing the rust belt cities

[Farnhamia]

First time I have made a topic, so forgive me if it doesn't reach the standards of a NSG OP.

In some of the northern states of the USA there are cities that seem to have failed. Poverty, crime, drug abuse, and a disproportionate murder rate seems to be a norm in some of these communities.
In another thread I contributed to this topic was touched upon, but I felt it was a bit of a threadjack to discuss it further, and it is something i am really interested in, so I would like to see NSGs take on this.

At the moment, in northern cities of the richest country in the world, there are ghettos, poverty and violence. Extrajudicial execution by the authorities is accepted. Schools are drained of resources. People are trapped in a cycle of poverty, and nobody seems to want to help them. More right wing people like to point to these cities as an example of how democrats have failed. And they have failed. White flight and the destruction of their tax base and any feasible line of income has left most of these cities very cash strapped. Detroit famously went bankrupt due to the lack of any discernible revenue. I am very curious about what they would suggest to solve these systemic problems.

My opinion? Need to take some money out the suburbs to get the schools up to standard. Need to end the war on drugs and focus on rehabilitation so that more families are kept together. You need real investment in these communities. You need to give the hopeless hope.

This video explains some of the systemic issues in these communities https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r6GBo_7UNc

[Novus America]

Here are some ideas.
1) decriminalize small scale drug possession, focus of rehabilitation (I agree).
2) at the same time murder, armed robbery, armed burglary and serious drug dealing get a minimum of 25 to life. Repeat offenses life without parole.
End the revolving prison door for violent crimes.
3) Completely overhaul our anti industrial trade policies, go back to early 60s trade policies.
4) Create a reindustrulization fund to build new modern manufacturing (particular using new technologies such as additive manufacturing (3D printing).
5). Create a much stricter buy in America law for the government (which uses made in China phones for example).
6) Give Chinese and Russian’s with skilled jobs in strategic industries (IT, aerospace and weapons, electronics, steel aluminum and ship building) Green cards if they settle in those cities.
7) Build housing for disabled veterans in those cities.
8 Massively improve infrastructure in those cities (with local sourcing requirements for jobs and materials).

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Grew up in Detroit. I can guarantee you Democrats didn't kill the city. White flight did. Even the staunchest right wing city in the world could not survive the loss of the wealthiest 65% of it's population.

You want to save the rust belt? Ever notice that all the military bases and government offices are located on the coasts? Sure you can find some inland but by and large most military and beaurocratic spending effectively subsidizes a handful of very lucky states. Start with that.

Edit: btw Detroit legalized weed years ago.

[Novus America]

Grew up in Detroit. I can guarantee you Democrats didn't kill the city. White flight did. Even the staunchest right wing city in the world could not survive the loss of the wealthiest 65% of it's population.

You want to save the rust belt? Ever notice that all the military bases and government offices are located on the coasts? Sure you can find some inland but by and large most military and beaurocratic spending effectively subsidizes a handful of very lucky states. Start with that.

Edit: btw Detroit legalized weed years ago.

The collapse of the auto industry and defense manufacturing industries also killed Detroit.
The destruction of American industries was unfortunately a bipartisan effort.

Certainly moving some government agencies around is a good idea.

But as far as military bases go, most are not well suited for urban areas because they need lots of space.

[Confederate States of German America]

I hate the suburbs with a passion, but liquidating them for cash to fund education in the ghettos isn't a valid policy proscription:

[Novus America]

I hate the suburbs with a passion, but liquidating them for cash to fund education in the ghettos isn't a valid policy proscription:

(Image)

Dumping money into throughly corrupt city governments will not fix the problem.
We also need a dedicated FBI and state police task forces and absurdly long jail terms for political corruption.
Crush the corruption in those cities’ governments.

As far as the suburbs go, people are going to live better places.
When the cities have higher crime, higher taxes and lower quality of services compared to the suburbs obviously many people are going to prefer the suburbs.

Baltimore for example has some very nice suburbs. Why live in a war zone with double the taxes, shit schools and roads and a local government with third world levels of corruption when you can live in a well governed, lower tax, low crime better schools and roads suburb?

Unless you get the criminals (including those in city hall) permanently exiled to prison where they belong you are going to have a problem in those cities regardless how much money you spend on them.

[Northwest Slobovia]

The three cities the OP mentions are a good demonstration of why one size fits all solutions don't work. Chicago is a major financial and technology center as well as a fading industrial city. Parts of it are quite rich. The Chicago Public Schools are a wreck for many reasons, but to the extent that money is one of them, it's not because the city is too poor to afford them.

Ditto the problems with crime: the CPD is one of the major offenders in the "extrajudicial killings" department, and they're now practically under federal control as a result (a set of consent decrees dicatating reforms resulting from civil rights violations). Until they get serious reform -- which may involve a purge of current officers -- reducing crime and increasing hope in the warzones is gonna be hard. They've had some success of late by seizing illegal guns, but that's low-hanging fruit resulting from their past apathy and ineptitude at dealing with it.

Detroit is glacially undergoing a rebirth. Vast amounts of cheap, empty land tend to do that. It could use an infusion of capital to accelerate redevelopment. I think Detroit's one of the few places that just throwing money at the problem has a good chance of working.

Baltimore is a basket case. It needs so many things that just pouring money into it is a waste.

While I can make proposals for each city, I doubt they'd apply to many other rustbelt cities. It's just like trying to make one size fits all proposals for 20 different poor people. It just doesn't work: one guy needs new job skills, another can't manage money; one is hard working but needs better transportation to get to good jobs, another is an addict and needs detox, etc, etc.

Need to take some money out the suburbs to get the schools up to standard.

Would you like a pony with that?

But as far as military bases go, most are not well suited for urban areas because they need lots of space.

Yup. And having checked a map, what we see is that a huge number of bases are concentrated in the Northeast, probably because that was the country's earliest industrial area. And *gasp* navy bases and shipyards tend to be along the coast. California does have a huge number of bases that can't be otherwise explained, but now we're back to "need lots of space". During the Cold War, a lot of that inland territory in California was wasteland: desert, scrubland, hills too rugged for agriculture even where there was water. So guess where the bases were built?

I hate the suburbs with a passion, but liquidating them for cash to fund education in the ghettos isn't a valid policy proscription:

(Image)

While that makes excellent ad copy, the pretty line of rising education costs doesn't just need to be normalized against the CPI (a measure of overall inflation), but against inflation in skilled labor wages, since that's what makes up the bulk of the cost of education. I'm pretty sure the cost of education is still rising more quickly than the (lack of) increase in test scores, but I'd like to see less-biased data before saying so.

[UniversalCommons]

1)Modern schools are closer to prisons than educational institutions. It starts with kindergarten. A lot of the successful business leaders came out of the Montessori method which emphasizes creativity and initiative. Start by changing the base of education to one that is focuses on creativity, initiative, and lifelong learning. We are no longer in the world of British Clerks.

2) Make it incredibly easy to start a business without penalty.

3) Change the tax structure so those who invest in people, property, and equipment get better tax breaks than those who hold onto their money.

4) Change the healthcare structure so that people can leave companies and not lose their healthcare. Try and make it easier to get healthcare without it being based on employed at a specific company or organization. Mobility allows people to start their own businesses.

5) Change property laws for business so that long vacant or abandoned properties can be turned over to the community to be used by local businesses or organizations. Encourage people to get renters or shop owners instead of holding onto empty property.

6) Reduce regulations that are politically based that have little to do with actual business or environmental regulation.

7) Introduce new forms of ownership that allow people to take over closing plants, pool resources, and start new businesses.

Invest in innovation. Open coworking spaces, professional buildings, and innovation centers.

9) Bring better banking and food options into the inner cities. If necessary start microlending, alternative lending, and other forms of access to capital into cities. Encourage the creation of minority banks and new banks in American cities.

10) Break up some of the monopolies so there can be a more competitive environment for small business.

11) Cut back on some of the government subsidies to large businesses and move the subsidies to new businesses and startups.

12) Change basic financial education about investing and saving in the schools.

13) Reinvest in civic structures- parks, community gardens, libraries, and open spaces. People should be there because it is pleasant to live there.

14) Make it easy to form civic associations for neighborhood cleanup, neighborhood watch, and public access to government.

15) Redo the bankruptcy laws so some of the rustbelt cities can declare bankruptcy without getting ruined completely.



You can go on and on. There are so many things that can be done. People create businesses, this is not a planned economy. If people want to start a business of any type, it needs to be easy and rewarding with a greater chance of success. Make it easy to start, fail, and start again. Get entrepreneurship going again. New employment comes from midsize companies. There are too many large companies that need a little creative destruction.

The solutions coming out of both conservative and liberals right now are the language of giant corporations, not the language of growing mid size companies, new startups, or local business. Big companies tend to be mature, mature industries hire less people and generate less new wealth.

[Confederate States of German America]

While that makes excellent ad copy, the pretty line of rising education costs doesn't just need to be normalized against the CPI (a measure of overall inflation), but against inflation in skilled labor wages, since that's what makes up the bulk of the cost of education. I'm pretty sure the cost of education is still rising more quickly than the (lack of) increase in test scores, but I'd like to see less-biased data before saying so.

It literally says its adjusted for CPI.

[Northwest Slobovia]

While that makes excellent ad copy, the pretty line of rising education costs doesn't just need to be normalized against the CPI (a measure of overall inflation), but against inflation in skilled labor wages, since that's what makes up the bulk of the cost of education. I'm pretty sure the cost of education is still rising more quickly than the (lack of) increase in test scores, but I'd like to see less-biased data before saying so.

It literally says its adjusted for CPI.

Yup. And I literally said that that's not the right inflation adjustment.

[Confederate States of German America]

It literally says its adjusted for CPI.

Yup. And I literally said that that's not the right inflation adjustment.

You're attempting to compare two unlike things then; wage inflation in high skill occupations is completely irrelevant to the question of whether more funding would increase test scores.

[Novus America]

Another key issue is ending property taxes and replacing them with land value taxes.
Maybe additional taxes for underutilized property.
Currently developing your property creates and additional tax burden, which of course encourages speculators to actually leave their property unused and decaying.

Our current property taxes activity discourage property development.

[Internationalist Bastard]

Go all in
Legalize all weapons, encourage an annual death race, and start a fashion trend for leather and mohawks

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Detroit became a major city based on the idea that Americans could compete on the same level as the Japanese and the Germans in the automotive manufacturing industry.

This idea has since flown in the face of reality.

That alone is proof enough that Detroit was a mistake.

Rather than squandering any more money on a city whose status emerged from a false idea, why not just relocate Detroit's residents throughout the country?

[The Grims]

Nobody believes Detroit should move to robotics research and enhanced law enforcement ?

[Confederate States of German America]

Detroit became a major city based on the idea that Americans could compete on the same level as the Japanese and the Germans in the automotive manufacturing industry.

This idea has since flown in the face of reality.

That alone is proof enough that Detroit was a mistake.

Rather than squandering any more money on a city whose status emerged from a false idea, why not just relocate Detroit's residents throughout the country?

When Detroit was at its biggest, it was not in the face of reality; American automotive manufacturing was the world leader and standard for most of the 20th Century, especially so after WWII. The Japanese only really became big after the Oil Shocks and the Germans were much the same until the 1960s as a result of their Post-War miracle. Indeed, after the War both Volkswagon and Toyota were offered for free or at low cost to Ford.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Detroit became a major city based on the idea that Americans could compete on the same level as the Japanese and the Germans in the automotive manufacturing industry.

This idea has since flown in the face of reality.

That alone is proof enough that Detroit was a mistake.

Rather than squandering any more money on a city whose status emerged from a false idea, why not just relocate Detroit's residents throughout the country?

When Detroit was at its biggest, it was not in the face of reality; American automotive manufacturing was the world leader and standard for most of the 20th Century, especially so after WWII. The Japanese only really became big after the Oil Shocks and the Germans were much the same until the 1960s as a result of their Post-War miracle. Indeed, after the War both Volkswagon and Toyota were offered for free or at low cost to Ford.

So? It sill didn't last.

[Darussalam]

Taking away indirect subsidies and favorable tax code from the suburbs is good. Whites should be encouraged to return to the cities.

[Unstoppable Empire of Doom]

Grew up in Detroit. I can guarantee you Democrats didn't kill the city. White flight did. Even the staunchest right wing city in the world could not survive the loss of the wealthiest 65% of it's population.

You want to save the rust belt? Ever notice that all the military bases and government offices are located on the coasts? Sure you can find some inland but by and large most military and beaurocratic spending effectively subsidizes a handful of very lucky states. Start with that.

Edit: btw Detroit legalized weed years ago.

The collapse of the auto industry and defense manufacturing industries also killed Detroit.
The destruction of American industries was unfortunately a bipartisan effort.

Certainly moving some government agencies around is a good idea.

But as far as military bases go, most are not well suited for urban areas because they need lots of space.

American industry was fine until China joined the WTO in the 90's which was 25 years after Detroit's decline began. While certainly a factor, perhaps a nail in the coffin, it wasn't the primary cause.

These cities have room for military bases.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_Re ... nd_Closure

They use to have them in fact. Most were either closed or transferred to national guard units. I currently live in Charleston. 10% of the metro area in employed by the military bases here. That is a huge subsidy. Drop Detroit's unemployment by 10% and watch it rise.

[Novus America]

When Detroit was at its biggest, it was not in the face of reality; American automotive manufacturing was the world leader and standard for most of the 20th Century, especially so after WWII. The Japanese only really became big after the Oil Shocks and the Germans were much the same until the 1960s as a result of their Post-War miracle. Indeed, after the War both Volkswagon and Toyota were offered for free or at low cost to Ford.

So? It sill didn't last.

Sure over reliance on one industry was an issue, but the US is still a major automotive manufacturer, you do realize that, right?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... production
The US manufacturers more vehicles than Germany or Japan.

Besides it was not really an issue when US cars were made for a US market.
Also you ignore Japan’s advantage comes from grossly unfair trading practices and Germany’s from government support if their industry (and protective tarrifs).

The automotive trade never was and never will be free and fair, so us trying to treat it as such was patently stupid.

Had we not allowed them to unfairly dump government subsidized products on our market and tariffs our cars higher than we did theirs it would have been less of an issue.

[Novus America]

The collapse of the auto industry and defense manufacturing industries also killed Detroit.
The destruction of American industries was unfortunately a bipartisan effort.

Certainly moving some government agencies around is a good idea.

But as far as military bases go, most are not well suited for urban areas because they need lots of space.

American industry was fine until China joined the WTO in the 90's which was 25 years after Detroit's decline began. While certainly a factor, perhaps a nail in the coffin, it wasn't the primary cause.

These cities have room for military bases.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_Re ... nd_Closure

They use to have them in fact. Most were either closed or transferred to national guard units. I currently live in Charleston. 10% of the metro area in employed by the military bases here. That is a huge subsidy. Drop Detroit's unemployment by 10% and watch it rise.

The American steel, automotive and defense industries got hit horribly in the 70s.
Defense crushed again in the 90s.
While overall manufacturing recovered in the 80s and was doing fine before 2000 and our idiotic decision to allow China into the WTO, not all industries fully recovered.

Detroit relied heavily on basically two.
And Detroit would have suffered a decline in the 70s. Even New York City did.
Preventing some decline was impossible, but the decline could have been less severe.

And Detroit does have a small base (mostly outside) that was downsized, but many bases are the size of cities.
Most those in the Charleston area are not actually in the city limits.

Certainly rebuilding the tank plant in Detroit would help, but it makes little sense to station large numbers of full time troops in Detroit as it is not well positioned.

You want troops stationed places where the have easy access to the sea, and where they can defend likely points of attack.

You could build a strategic missile defense sight near Detroit, but other than that there is no threat from that area.

Besides the military personnel would probably still choose to live in the suburbs unless the crime, corruption, and other issues are solved.

And I am all for rebuilding our military industrial base to 1980s levels but it will not be cheap.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

So? It sill didn't last.

Sure over reliance on one industry was an issue, but the US is still a major automotive manufacturer, you do realize that, right?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... production
The US manufacturers more vehicles than Germany or Japan.

Besides it was not really an issue when US cars were made for a US market.
Also you ignore Japan’s advantage comes from grossly unfair trading practices and Germany’s from government support if their industry (and protective tarrifs).

The automotive trade never was and never will be free and fair, so us trying to treat it as such was patently stupid.

Had we not allowed them to unfairly dump government subsidized products on our market and tariffs our cars higher than we did theirs it would have been less of an issue.

Well, clearly Germany can afford to subsidize their auto industry, as they remain first world in no uncertain terms. As for Japan, you'll need to be a bit more specific than "unfair trading practices."

But for the USA, any support for Detroit has thus far proven half-hearted. Their industries were bailed out, yet they're still struggling. Their people were given enough to survive but not much more, (I'm sure you've seen the videos from its ghettos) and the political will to pour more money into a place whose economic purpose seems increasingly obsolete shows no sign of resurfacing anytime soon. I think something drastic like subsidizing relocation instead will force the issue, if nothing else.

[Novus America]

Sure over reliance on one industry was an issue, but the US is still a major automotive manufacturer, you do realize that, right?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of ... production
The US manufacturers more vehicles than Germany or Japan.

Besides it was not really an issue when US cars were made for a US market.
Also you ignore Japan’s advantage comes from grossly unfair trading practices and Germany’s from government support if their industry (and protective tarrifs).

The automotive trade never was and never will be free and fair, so us trying to treat it as such was patently stupid.

Had we not allowed them to unfairly dump government subsidized products on our market and tariffs our cars higher than we did theirs it would have been less of an issue.

Well, clearly Germany can afford to subsidize their auto industry, as they remain first world in no uncertain terms. As for Japan, you'll need to be a bit more specific than "unfair trading practices."

But for the USA, any support for Detroit has thus far proven half-hearted. Their industries were bailed out, yet they're still struggling. Their people were given enough to survive but not much more, (I'm sure you've seen the videos from its ghettos) and the political will to pour more money into a place whose economic purpose seems increasingly obsolete shows no sign of resurfacing anytime soon. I think something drastic like subsidizing relocation instead will force the issue, if nothing else.

The problem is trade policies. We cannot keep pretending free trade can actually apply to subsidized industries like autos. Sure we supported our auto industry less, and less effectively than Japan and Germany did. But that is not because their vehicles are inherently better, or because we cannot produce our own. It is a failure of government policies.

Umm most people in Detroit have already relocated anyways.
And people are still leaving. I fail to see what purpose subsidizing the depopulation of the city accomplishes.

Sure rebuilding the Detroit auto industry to its pre 70s glory days is not going to happen.
But there are other things Detroit can do or make.

[Confederate States of German America]

When Detroit was at its biggest, it was not in the face of reality; American automotive manufacturing was the world leader and standard for most of the 20th Century, especially so after WWII. The Japanese only really became big after the Oil Shocks and the Germans were much the same until the 1960s as a result of their Post-War miracle. Indeed, after the War both Volkswagon and Toyota were offered for free or at low cost to Ford.

So? It sill didn't last.

Obviously, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Point is that there is no reality to the claim the U.S. couldn't compete with Japan and Germany in automotives.

[The of Japan]

So? It sill didn't last.

Obviously, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Point is that there is no reality to the claim the U.S. couldn't compete with Japan and Germany in automotives.

Point is, we are undercompetitive in these industries.