2021 Israeli Elections IV: Now Without Netanyahu

[Shrillland]

Well, as long as he's in power, he can't go to jail. The Basic Law says that a PM can only be removed in such circumstance once they're convicted and exhausted all of their appeals.

How many appeals does one have though? I feel that could be dragged out for years although I'm sure if one was convicted of such charges, leadership challenge would happen no doubt. Even if they did survive a leadership challenge, I feel the next election would see their party lose, unless of course, people don't care enough.

Hopefully if this mess ever ends Israel will consider some serious electoral and political reform.

Yeah, let's hope. This should be a huge eye opener.

Just the trial alone would take up at least a year, and as for appeals...well, you know how long they can last here in the US, Israel I would gather may be quicker but that's not saying all that much.

[Zurkerx]

How many appeals does one have though? I feel that could be dragged out for years although I'm sure if one was convicted of such charges, leadership challenge would happen no doubt. Even if they did survive a leadership challenge, I feel the next election would see their party lose, unless of course, people don't care enough.



Yeah, let's hope. This should be a huge eye opener.

Just the trial alone would take up at least a year, and as for appeals...well, you know how long they can last here in the US, Israel I would gather may be quicker but that's not saying all that much.

Definitely. Then in that case, we're in for a joy ride.

But to make a broader point: it seems Democracies across the world are having these problems, to some extremes or less as strong-arm (aka, my way of saying strongman) and authoritarian politics seem to be on the rise. Eh, let's hope Israel can get it's shit together soon.

[Novus America]

Honestly I think Israel should adopt the French system (semi-presidential, single member districts using run off elections if someone fails to get more than 50% of the vote). And of course this would mean a much less powerful, more accountable PM.

Is it truly representative? No. But does it make an country that would be otherwise ungovernable actually governable? Absolutely.

[Zurkerx]

Honestly I think Israel should adopt the French system (semi-presidential, single member districts using run off elections if someone fails to get more than 50% of the vote). And of course this would mean a much less powerful, more accountable PM.

Is it truly representative? No. But does it make an country that would be otherwise ungovernable actually governable? Absolutely.

That's not a bad system, especially since it could work in the US as well (we need changes there, ya know). However, I fear a risk of gerrymandering would happen although I'm not sure if this is a problem in the world besides the US.

I think we should note though that a proportional representation system isn't bad unless a country has either to few/to many parties. In Israel's case, there might be just too many.

[Novus America]

Honestly I think Israel should adopt the French system (semi-presidential, single member districts using run off elections if someone fails to get more than 50% of the vote). And of course this would mean a much less powerful, more accountable PM.

Is it truly representative? No. But does it make an country that would be otherwise ungovernable actually governable? Absolutely.

That's not a bad system, especially since it could work in the US as well (we need changes there, ya know). However, I fear a risk of gerrymandering would happen although I'm not sure if this is a problem in the world besides the US.

I think we should note though that a proportional representation system isn't bad unless a country has either to few/to many parties. In Israel's case, there might be just too many.

Namely a proportional system requires a relatively cooperative, moderate and united society.
As a society becomes more divided, more extreme and more adversarial, proportional systems fall apart.

Proportional systems enable and empower the lunatic fringe, the French system sidelines it.

For proportional systems to work at least half the population must have some sort of common vision or goal enough to form a stable governing coalition.

Israel meanwhile is divided into three (themselves very broad, internally divided and unstable forms) sectors. Broadly Secular Jews, religious Jews, and Arabs (and again these broad oversimplified groups are unstable and internally divided). Neither big enough to get a majority, and too different to effectively work together in a proportional, parliamentary system.

[Outer Sparta]

That's not a bad system, especially since it could work in the US as well (we need changes there, ya know). However, I fear a risk of gerrymandering would happen although I'm not sure if this is a problem in the world besides the US.

I think we should note though that a proportional representation system isn't bad unless a country has either to few/to many parties. In Israel's case, there might be just too many.

Namely a proportional system requires a relatively cooperative, moderate and united society.
As a society becomes more divided, more extreme and more adversarial, proportional systems fall apart.

Proportional systems enable and empower the lunatic fringe, the French system sidelines it.

For proportional systems to work at least half the population must have some sort of common vision or goal enough to form a stable governing coalition.

Israel meanwhile is divided into three (themselves very broad, internally divided and unstable forms) sectors. Broadly Secular Jews, religious Jews, and Arabs (and again these broad oversimplified groups are unstable and internally divided). Neither big enough to get a majority, and too different to effectively work together in a proportional, parliamentary system.

Israel's a stark example of highlighting the cons of proportional representation. They got two major factions led by KL and Likud with one abstaining group and neither faction can seem to break through.

[Shrillland]

Namely a proportional system requires a relatively cooperative, moderate and united society.
As a society becomes more divided, more extreme and more adversarial, proportional systems fall apart.

Proportional systems enable and empower the lunatic fringe, the French system sidelines it.

For proportional systems to work at least half the population must have some sort of common vision or goal enough to form a stable governing coalition.

Israel meanwhile is divided into three (themselves very broad, internally divided and unstable forms) sectors. Broadly Secular Jews, religious Jews, and Arabs (and again these broad oversimplified groups are unstable and internally divided). Neither big enough to get a majority, and too different to effectively work together in a proportional, parliamentary system.

Israel's a stark example of highlighting the cons of proportional representation. They got two major factions led by KL and Likud with one abstaining group and neither faction can seem to break through.

They actually could form a grand coalition, and both parties have said so, but Gantz absolutely refuses to work with Netanyahu for any reason whatsoever. If he was out, Israel wouldn't be in this mess. No continuous votes, no need to curry favour with Lieberman or the Joint List, things would go back to normal if Netanyahu just cared more for his country than his own hide.

[Outer Sparta]

Israel's a stark example of highlighting the cons of proportional representation. They got two major factions led by KL and Likud with one abstaining group and neither faction can seem to break through.

They actually could form a grand coalition, and both parties have said so, but Gantz absolutely refuses to work with Netanyahu for any reason whatsoever. If he was out, Israel wouldn't be in this mess. No continuous votes, no need to curry favour with Lieberman or the Joint List, things would go back to normal if Netanyahu just cared more for his country than his own hide.

A grand coalition is most likely, but Netanyahu just wants to stay in power to avoid being thrown in jail. Gantz doesn't feel Netanyahu would be a good coalition partner due to the corruption charges.

[Phoenicaea]

you come late french has begun to be inadapt, notably it grew as elective monarchy. semi-presidential countries suffer the most.

semi-presidential french is much more a pyramid than presidential american. if i see knesset, what i see their need is a ceiling for minuscule parties.

[Shrillland]

you come late french has begun to be inadapt, notably it grew as elective monarchy. semi-presidential countries suffer the most.

semi-presidential french is much more a pyramid than presidential american. if i see knesset, what i see their need is a ceiling for minuscule parties.

Well, currently the threshold is 3.25%, raising it to 5% would remove a few parties...but it would be the entirety of Israel's minuscule left that would be lost if we use the September results.

[Outer Sparta]

you come late french has begun to be inadapt, notably it grew as elective monarchy. semi-presidential countries suffer the most.

semi-presidential french is much more a pyramid than presidential american. if i see knesset, what i see their need is a ceiling for minuscule parties.

Well, currently the threshold is 3.25%, raising it to 5% would remove a few parties...but it would be the entirety of Israel's minuscule left that would be lost if we use the September results.

Previously the threshold was only 2%, which is on the low end of the spectrum compared to other proportional systems.

[Novus America]

Israel's a stark example of highlighting the cons of proportional representation. They got two major factions led by KL and Likud with one abstaining group and neither faction can seem to break through.

They actually could form a grand coalition, and both parties have said so, but Gantz absolutely refuses to work with Netanyahu for any reason whatsoever. If he was out, Israel wouldn't be in this mess. No continuous votes, no need to curry favour with Lieberman or the Joint List, things would go back to normal if Netanyahu just cared more for his country than his own hide.

Forming a grand coalition is impossible unless they agree to keep Bibi as PM, something they obviously cannot do as their voters vote for them because the oppose Bibi.

And Bibi will never agree to any coalition that does not have him as the PM, and the religious right will not dump him.

Besides there are other issues like draft exemptions and welfare programs exclusively for the ultra Orthodox that divide them.

They have a very different view of what Israel is and should be.

[Aureumterra]

Damn, another missile fired from Gaza

Hamas bottle rockets have killed maybe a handful of people or two in decades on a good day for Hamas.

Fajr-5s are bottle rockets to you?

[Gormwood]

Hamas bottle rockets have killed maybe a handful of people or two in decades on a good day for Hamas.

Fajr-5s are bottle rockets to you?

They have to remove explosives from the warheads in order to make them light enough to reach Israeli territory.

[Shrillland]

Today, the Supreme Court is hearing arguments on a petition that would determine whether or not an MK can form a government if they've been indicted: https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-top-court-hears-case-085159248.html

This is because the Basic Law forbids it for lower-level officials but not specifically for the PM.

[Philjia]

Today, the Supreme Court is hearing arguments on a petition that would determine whether or not an MK can form a government if they've been indicted: https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-top-court-hears-case-085159248.html

This is because the Basic Law forbids it for lower-level officials but not specifically for the PM.

"We never expected this would happen"

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

So what’s The Whole deal with Israel ?

Palenstine and Jordan and all that ? All these wars and stuff I hear about...

[Zurkerx]

Today, the Supreme Court is hearing arguments on a petition that would determine whether or not an MK can form a government if they've been indicted: https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-top-court-hears-case-085159248.html

This is because the Basic Law forbids it for lower-level officials but not specifically for the PM.

If the Court rules that an indicted MK can't form a government, that would most certainly end Bibi's career and any chance of getting power. Of course, I'm not sure what the makeup of the court is and given Bibi has been in power for years, I wouldn't be surprised if the court was stuff with his cronies.

[Paigentland]

There should be more Arab/Palestinian parties, or at least more explicitly pro-Palestinian parties.

[North German Realm]

There should be more Arab/Palestinian parties, or at least more explicitly pro-Palestinian parties.

There shouldn't be any. Being pro-Palestine in any capacity should be grounds enough to eject someone from any political office in the country, as it is by its very nature treason against the nation in general.

[Aclion]

There should be more Arab/Palestinian parties, or at least more explicitly pro-Palestinian parties.

The whole point of the joint list is to consolidate the various arab parties so they can actually get turnout.

[Novus America]

There should be more Arab/Palestinian parties, or at least more explicitly pro-Palestinian parties.

What exactly would that solve?
It would just further split and dilute the Arabs’ votes, more parties would not give them more representation.

[Gormwood]

There should be more Arab/Palestinian parties, or at least more explicitly pro-Palestinian parties.

There shouldn't be any. Being pro-Palestine in any capacity should be grounds enough to eject someone from any political office in the country, as it is by its very nature treason against the nation in general.

Okay Kahanist.

[Shrillland]

Today, the Supreme Court is hearing arguments on a petition that would determine whether or not an MK can form a government if they've been indicted: https://www.yahoo.com/news/israeli-top-court-hears-case-085159248.html

This is because the Basic Law forbids it for lower-level officials but not specifically for the PM.

If the Court rules that an indicted MK can't form a government, that would most certainly end Bibi's career and any chance of getting power. Of course, I'm not sure what the makeup of the court is and given Bibi has been in power for years, I wouldn't be surprised if the court was stuff with his cronies.

Well, the 15 justices aren't political appointees strictly speaking. The President appoints them with the advice and consent of the Judicial Selection Committee, which consists of nine people: Three current justices including the Court President, two government ministers including the Justice Minister, two backbench MKs, and two Israeli Bar Association representatives. It takes a supermajority of seven to confirm a justice. With so many different groups needing to be placated, it reduces the likelihood of purely political appointments.

[Fahran]

There shouldn't be any. Being pro-Palestine in any capacity should be grounds enough to eject someone from any political office in the country, as it is by its very nature treason against the nation in general.

Okay Kahanist.

I don't think that's really a Kahanist argument. Beyond that, do we really want to dilute the influence of the Arab List any further?