La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[The South Falls]

Maduro is not competent. I have said this already. For the benefit of Venezuela, he should be removed.

[Dresderstan]

Venezuela's foreign minister levels a passionate attack against U.S. and Europe

[Kowani]

Have any of those criteria been met? Nope.

Maduro has been removed from office by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice in exile. How much power they hold is questionable, but the case isn't as clear cut as you make it seem. You can also say that he has forfeited his position by forging the elections.

Forging elections pretty much invalidates your validity as president, anyway.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Maduro has been removed from office by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice in exile. How much power they hold is questionable, but the case isn't as clear cut as you make it seem. You can also say that he has forfeited his position by forging the elections.

Forging elections pretty much invalidates your validity as president, anyway.

Yeah, but it is important to distinguish validity, legitimacy and legality. Those are not the same things.

[Kowani]

Forging elections pretty much invalidates your validity as president, anyway.

Yeah, but it is important to distinguish validity, legitimacy and legality. Those are not the same things.

None of which are achieved by forging elections.

[Byzconia]

The guy declared himself president without any elections whatsoever. That's what we call a dictator.

He’s...following the Constitution to the letter. That’s pretty democratic.

Well, no, it's pretty republican (under the American usage of the term). Simply being declared yourself President is pretty undemocratic, no matter the situation. Even if you believe the elections to be fraudulent, there has been no formal investigation or charge brought. The assumption we shouldn't be making is that "democracy=good." While democracy is a good system, it needs to be tempered by laws.

I recognize that what he did is legal, but I still wouldn't call it democratic.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

He’s...following the Constitution to the letter. That’s pretty democratic.

Well, no, it's pretty republican (under the American usage of the term). Simply being declared yourself President is pretty undemocratic, no matter the situation. Even if you believe the elections to be fraudulent, there has been no formal investigation or charge brought. The assumption we shouldn't be making is that "democracy=good." While democracy is a good system, it needs to be tempered by laws.

I recognize that what he did is legal, but I still wouldn't call it democratic.

Republicanism and democracy are inseperable. The constitution was adopted democratically, it is a democratic law, and therefore following it is democratic, and not following it is undemocratic. The American republic-democracy dichotomy does not stand up to scrutiny.

[Kowani]

He’s...following the Constitution to the letter. That’s pretty democratic.

Well, no, it's pretty republican (under the American usage of the term). Simply being declared yourself President is pretty undemocratic, no matter the situation. Even if you believe the elections to be fraudulent, there has been no formal investigation or charge brought. The assumption we shouldn't be making is that "democracy=good." While democracy is a good system, it needs to be tempered by laws.

I recognize that what he did is legal, but I still wouldn't call it democratic.

Well. The parliament (National Assembly) is democratically and fairly elected, yes? Therefore, it is democratic. But, I see what you’re saying.

[Byzconia]

Yeah, but it is important to distinguish validity, legitimacy and legality. Those are not the same things.

None of which are achieved by forging elections.

Which hasn't been proven by any sort of investigation. I do not support Maduro, and I recognize that there are many claims of electoral fraud, but to my knowledge nothing has been conclusively proven. So, saying that the Presidency is invalidated simply because there are claims of fraud sets a dangerous precedent IMO.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Yeah, but it is important to distinguish validity, legitimacy and legality. Those are not the same things.

None of which are achieved by forging elections.

No, absolutely, but while forging elections is illegal, the constitution does not name it as a ground for removal from office. Therefore it is illegal, but removing the president is not the legal result.

[Kowani]

None of which are achieved by forging elections.

No, absolutely, but while forging elections is illegal, the constitution does not name it as a ground for removal from office. Therefore it is illegal, but removing the president is not the legal result.

Really? Faking your way into power isn’t illegal? See, in my opinion, of you have to fake the election results, you’re not really the president, you’re a facsimile, and cannot be removed by virtue of not being the president.

[Byzconia]

Well, no, it's pretty republican (under the American usage of the term). Simply being declared yourself President is pretty undemocratic, no matter the situation. Even if you believe the elections to be fraudulent, there has been no formal investigation or charge brought. The assumption we shouldn't be making is that "democracy=good." While democracy is a good system, it needs to be tempered by laws.

I recognize that what he did is legal, but I still wouldn't call it democratic.

Republicanism and democracy are inseperable. The constitution was adopted democratically, it is a democratic law, and therefore following it is democratic, and not following it is undemocratic. The American republic-democracy dichotomy does not stand up to scrutiny.

Disagree completely. Your argument is essentially that "past generations can make laws for future generations," which is undemocratic. As that's essentially what a constitution is, it may be democratically adopted, initially, but as that generation dies the constitution remains. The only way your argument would be accurate is if the constitution were scrapped and renewed every generation.

[The South Falls]

Personally, I believe that Maduro's sheer incompetence makes him unable to continue serving Venezuela in a useful manner, and therefore he should be removed. It's simple.

[Sneudal]

Have any of those criteria been met? Nope.

Maduro has been removed from office by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice in exile. How much power they hold is questionable, but the case isn't as clear cut as you make it seem. You can also say that he has forfeited his position by forging the elections.

'in exile' I suppose that says enough…

I'm far from a Maduro fan and believe he should step aside, but blindly supporting some kind of quasi dictator isn't my cup of tea either.

In the end Maduro is still president of Venezuela, and we just have to deal with that reality, protest it (perhaps some additonal sanctions) and hope he gives up in the end. Blindly supporting people who claim to be the leader of a country is the last thing we should be doing, as after all, such things have backfired more than once and often lead to civil wars.

Maduro is not competent. I have said this already. For the benefit of Venezuela, he should be removed.

Fairly sure pretty much everyone agrees. But how is another story.

[Byzconia]

Personally, I believe that Maduro's sheer incompetence makes him unable to continue serving Venezuela in a useful manner, and therefore he should be removed. It's simple.

Personally, I'd argue the same about Trump, but there's a process that exists for removing and replacing presidents. Even if the Constitution said it were okay, I wouldn't be particularly happy with Nancy Pelosi declaring herself "interim President."

[The South Falls]

Personally, I believe that Maduro's sheer incompetence makes him unable to continue serving Venezuela in a useful manner, and therefore he should be removed. It's simple.

Personally, I'd argue the same about Trump, but there's a process that exists for removing and replacing presidents. Even if the Constitution said it were okay, I wouldn't be particularly happy with Nancy Pelosi declaring herself "interim President."

Yea, I don't think that'd be good. But if Trump started just arresting everyone, and say, masturbating on national TV or some insane shit, we'd be right to remove him, no?

[Galloism]

Personally, I'd argue the same about Trump, but there's a process that exists for removing and replacing presidents. Even if the Constitution said it were okay, I wouldn't be particularly happy with Nancy Pelosi declaring herself "interim President."

Yea, I don't think that'd be good. But if Trump started just arresting everyone, and say, masturbating on national TV or some insane shit, we'd be right to remove him, no?

I think that's what the 25th amendment is for.

[Sneudal]

Personally, I'd argue the same about Trump, but there's a process that exists for removing and replacing presidents. Even if the Constitution said it were okay, I wouldn't be particularly happy with Nancy Pelosi declaring herself "interim President."

Yea, I don't think that'd be good. But if Trump started just arresting everyone, and say, masturbating on national TV or some insane shit, we'd be right to remove him, no?

This would be the best, and at the same time most disgusting thing Trump could possibly do

[Galloism]

Yea, I don't think that'd be good. But if Trump started just arresting everyone, and say, masturbating on national TV or some insane shit, we'd be right to remove him, no?

This would be the best, and at the same time most disgusting thing Trump could possibly do

What the hell, we've never had a president do that before. Gotta break that streak sometime.

[The South Falls]

Yea, I don't think that'd be good. But if Trump started just arresting everyone, and say, masturbating on national TV or some insane shit, we'd be right to remove him, no?

This would be the best, and at the same time most disgusting thing Trump could possibly do

So many people would whip out their dicks/pussies and fap with the president.

This would be the best, and at the same time most disgusting thing Trump could possibly do

What the hell, we've never had a president do that before. Gotta break that streak sometime.

An a solid 231 year streak. Let's break it.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Republicanism and democracy are inseperable. The constitution was adopted democratically, it is a democratic law, and therefore following it is democratic, and not following it is undemocratic. The American republic-democracy dichotomy does not stand up to scrutiny.

Disagree completely. Your argument is essentially that "past generations can make laws for future generations," which is undemocratic. As that's essentially what a constitution is, it may be democratically adopted, initially, but as that generation dies the constitution remains. The only way your argument would be accurate is if the constitution were scrapped and renewed every generation.

The current generation hasn’t scrapped the law yet. Constitutions can be changed. Most laws have been acceptd before our birth, but that is why we have a system to remove laws we disagree with.

[Byzconia]

Personally, I'd argue the same about Trump, but there's a process that exists for removing and replacing presidents. Even if the Constitution said it were okay, I wouldn't be particularly happy with Nancy Pelosi declaring herself "interim President."

Yea, I don't think that'd be good. But if Trump started just arresting everyone, and say, masturbating on national TV or some insane shit, we'd be right to remove him, no?

Yes, after undergoing the full process of impeachment and removal. My point is that no such process was undergone in Venezuela. The parliament simply declared a new President because they claim the current one is illegitimate.

[Byzconia]

This would be the best, and at the same time most disgusting thing Trump could possibly do

What the hell, we've never had a president do that before. Gotta break that streak sometime.

LBJ walked around the Oval Office nude (and I wouldn't be surprised if others did, too). Why not take it to the next level? Imagine the ratings boost for C-SPAN!

[Kowani]

Yea, I don't think that'd be good. But if Trump started just arresting everyone, and say, masturbating on national TV or some insane shit, we'd be right to remove him, no?

Yes, after undergoing the full process of impeachment and removal. My point is that no such process was undergone in Venezuela. The parliament simply declared a new President because they claim the current one is illegitimate.

Show of hands, who thinks Maduro fairly won the elections?

[Byzconia]

Disagree completely. Your argument is essentially that "past generations can make laws for future generations," which is undemocratic. As that's essentially what a constitution is, it may be democratically adopted, initially, but as that generation dies the constitution remains. The only way your argument would be accurate is if the constitution were scrapped and renewed every generation.

The current generation hasn’t scrapped the law yet. Constitutions can be changed. Most laws have been acceptd before our birth, but that is why we have a system to remove laws we disagree with.

That's my point, though. That system is undemocratic, but that's not the same as being bad. If we wanted to be truly democratic, then we would scrap all of our laws and start from scratch regularly. The reason we don't do that is because there have to be limits to democracy so that it functions properly. That's what (American) republicanism means, limiting democracy to prevent mob rule.