La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

There might be a big chance that Russia and the US might start a proxy war in Venezuela. Putin wants his pal Maduro to be a resistant fortress towards American influence

I suppose with 'big chance' you mean 'no chance at all'. Russia is not going to support a war in the backyard of the US, it has neither the incentive to do that nor the power. What would Putin have to gain from keeping Maduro in power? This isn't the cold war, Russia has no reason to prop up socialist regimes. And Russia isn't the USSR, it doesn't have the means to project power across half the world.

[Minoa]

There might be a big chance that Russia and the US might start a proxy war in Venezuela. Putin wants his pal Maduro to be a resistant fortress towards American influence

I suppose with 'big chance' you mean 'no chance at all'. Russia is not going to support a war in the backyard of the US, it has neither the incentive to do that nor the power. What would Putin have to gain from keeping Maduro in power? This isn't the cold war, Russia has no reason to prop up socialist regimes. And Russia isn't the USSR, it doesn't have the means to project power across half the world.

Given the state of my health, another proxy war is the last thing I need.

[Bahktar]

Most communist regimes fell without bloodshed in 1989.

Well, that's not strictly how it happened, is it.
It was one "regime", the Russian Soviet regime, on eastern Europe.

Most of Eastern Europe was very happy to leave that regime in the 1980s.
Oh, and a reminder that Russian tanks shelled the parliament building in 1993.

The shelling of the parliament in 1993 has nothing to do with a revolution, it was a constitutional crisis.

Either way, I hope either Maduro steps down or the military eventually sides with Guaido or something else happens.
I wouldn't be exactly opposed to a coalition of South American countries & the USA intervening militarily.

[Loben]

I suppose with 'big chance' you mean 'no chance at all'. Russia is not going to support a war in the backyard of the US, it has neither the incentive to do that nor the power. What would Putin have to gain from keeping Maduro in power? This isn't the cold war, Russia has no reason to prop up socialist regimes. And Russia isn't the USSR, it doesn't have the means to project power across half the world.

Given the state of my health, another proxy war is the last thing I need.

where do you live

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Well, that's not strictly how it happened, is it.
It was one "regime", the Russian Soviet regime, on eastern Europe.

Most of Eastern Europe was very happy to leave that regime in the 1980s.
Oh, and a reminder that Russian tanks shelled the parliament building in 1993.

The shelling of the parliament in 1993 has nothing to do with a revolution, it was a constitutional crisis.

Either way, I hope either Maduro steps down or the military eventually sides with Guaido or something else happens.
I wouldn't be exactly opposed to a coalition of South American countries & the USA intervening militarily.

What’s the difference between a coup, a revolution and a constitutional crisis?

[Sneudal]

So, the U.S. is back at supporting self-declared presidents dictators who oppose their opponents...
What a time to be alive.

[Kowani]

So, the U.S. is back at supporting self-declared presidents dictators who oppose their opponents...
What a time to be alive.

Guaidó’s an interim president, mate. And Maduro is an awful dictator. The US fucks up a lot, but this time, the law is actually being followed.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

So, the U.S. is back at supporting self-declared presidents dictators who oppose their opponents...
What a time to be alive.

So... How is the guy a dictator, since he hasn't done anything but call for elections yet? And... isn't opposing your opponents part of the dynamic? The words literally have the same etymological root.

[Valrifell]

So, the U.S. is back at supporting self-declared presidents dictators who oppose their opponents...
What a time to be alive.

This isn't reflective of the situation at all.

Can OP please change the misleading thread title because I think it's giving a lot of people misconceptions about what the situation actually is.

To recap: he isn't some rando who's declared himself president for no reason, he's the (equivalent of) the Speaker of the National Assembly and takes the title of interim president if the office is vacant, aforementioned National Assembly (and a lot of other people) don't view the election that seated Maduro as legitimate and therefore consider the office vacant. As per the Venezuelan constitution, he becomes the new president for at least 30 days.

[Sneudal]

So, the U.S. is back at supporting self-declared presidents dictators who oppose their opponents...
What a time to be alive.

Guaidó’s an interim president, mate. And Maduro is an awful dictator. The US fucks up a lot, but this time, the law is actually being followed.

So, the U.S. is back at supporting self-declared presidents dictators who oppose their opponents...
What a time to be alive.

So... How is the guy a dictator, since he hasn't done anything but call for elections yet? And... isn't opposing your opponents part of the dynamic? The words literally have the same etymological root.

The guy declared himself president without any elections whatsoever. That's what we call a dictator.

Opposing your opponents is, blindly supporting the opponents of your opponents backfired before, and will backfire again (see good old Bin Laden as prime example, along with those fine young lads of the FSA Jabhat Fatah al-Sham).

[Galloism]

So, the U.S. is back at supporting self-declared presidents dictators who oppose their opponents...
What a time to be alive.

This isn't reflective of the situation at all.

Can OP please change the misleading thread title because I think it's giving a lot of people misconceptions about what the situation actually is.

To recap: he isn't some rando who's declared himself president for no reason, he's the (equivalent of) the Speaker of the National Assembly and takes the title of interim president if the office is vacant, aforementioned National Assembly (and a lot of other people) don't view the election that seated Maduro as legitimate and therefore consider the office vacant. As per the Venezuelan constitution, he becomes the new president for at least 30 days.

OH.

That gives some extra context on the exact dispute.

[Sneudal]

So, the U.S. is back at supporting self-declared presidents dictators who oppose their opponents...
What a time to be alive.

This isn't reflective of the situation at all.

Can OP please change the misleading thread title because I think it's giving a lot of people misconceptions about what the situation actually is.

To recap: he isn't some rando who's declared himself president for no reason, he's the (equivalent of) the Speaker of the National Assembly and takes the title of interim president if the office is vacant, aforementioned National Assembly (and a lot of other people) don't view the election that seated Maduro as legitimate and therefore consider the office vacant. As per the Venezuelan constitution, he becomes the new president for at least 30 days.

Whether you recognize the elections or not, there already is a president whether you like it or not. Hence your (and his for that matter) reason is nonexistent.

[Kowani]

Guaidó’s an interim president, mate. And Maduro is an awful dictator. The US fucks up a lot, but this time, the law is actually being followed.

So... How is the guy a dictator, since he hasn't done anything but call for elections yet? And... isn't opposing your opponents part of the dynamic? The words literally have the same etymological root.

The guy declared himself president without any elections whatsoever. That's what we call a dictator.

He’s...following the Constitution to the letter. That’s pretty democratic.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

So, the U.S. is back at supporting self-declared presidents dictators who oppose their opponents...
What a time to be alive.

This isn't reflective of the situation at all.

Can OP please change the misleading thread title because I think it's giving a lot of people misconceptions about what the situation actually is.

To recap: he isn't some rando who's declared himself president for no reason, he's the (equivalent of) the Speaker of the National Assembly and takes the title of interim president if the office is vacant, aforementioned National Assembly (and a lot of other people) don't view the election that seated Maduro as legitimate and therefore consider the office vacant. As per the Venezuelan constitution, he becomes the new president for at least 30 days.

That's one view, of course, but the view of Maduro is that he is still the legal president, and that none of the demands of article 233 have actually been met, namely:

death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability certified by a medical board designated by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice with the approval of the National Assembly; abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote.

While I agree that the guy isn't some rando, I can't change the title to read 'President of the Venezuelan National Assembly assumes his constitutional position of interim president", since that is just one view of events. As it stands, he declared himself President, which is the most neutral way to describe what actually happened. I am changing his title from opposition leader, though, since that is not his most relevant job description.

[Valrifell]

This isn't reflective of the situation at all.

Can OP please change the misleading thread title because I think it's giving a lot of people misconceptions about what the situation actually is.

To recap: he isn't some rando who's declared himself president for no reason, he's the (equivalent of) the Speaker of the National Assembly and takes the title of interim president if the office is vacant, aforementioned National Assembly (and a lot of other people) don't view the election that seated Maduro as legitimate and therefore consider the office vacant. As per the Venezuelan constitution, he becomes the new president for at least 30 days.

Whether you recognize the elections or not, there already is a president whether you like it or not. Hence your (and his for that matter) reason is nonexistent.

That doesn't make sense? The President was not chosen in lines with the Venezuelan constitution so there is legal basis for declaring the office to be vacant and the current "occupier" of that office to be illegitimately operating under the title.

Sure, there's technically already a President in Maduro, but his legal justification for being in that position is washy at best.

[Kowani]

This isn't reflective of the situation at all.

Can OP please change the misleading thread title because I think it's giving a lot of people misconceptions about what the situation actually is.

To recap: he isn't some rando who's declared himself president for no reason, he's the (equivalent of) the Speaker of the National Assembly and takes the title of interim president if the office is vacant, aforementioned National Assembly (and a lot of other people) don't view the election that seated Maduro as legitimate and therefore consider the office vacant. As per the Venezuelan constitution, he becomes the new president for at least 30 days.

That's one view, of course, but the view of Maduro is that he is still the legal president, and that none of the demands of article 233 have actually been met, namely:

death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability certified by a medical board designated by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice with the approval of the National Assembly; abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote.

Bolded for emphasis. There’s why.

[Sneudal]

The guy declared himself president without any elections whatsoever. That's what we call a dictator.

He’s...following the Constitution to the letter. That’s pretty democratic.

Uhmm no, he's not.

[The South Falls]

He’s...following the Constitution to the letter. That’s pretty democratic.

Uhmm no, he's not.

That's exactly the provision the constitution states.

[Sneudal]

Whether you recognize the elections or not, there already is a president whether you like it or not. Hence your (and his for that matter) reason is nonexistent.

That doesn't make sense? The President was not chosen in lines with the Venezuelan constitution so there is legal basis for declaring the office to be vacant and the current "occupier" of that office to be illegitimately operating under the title.

Sure, there's technically already a President in Maduro, but his legal justification for being in that position is washy at best.

There's a president in a president?

Anyways, yes, Maduro's re-election is questionable to say at least, but it doesn't make him less of the president. Electoral fraud is no excuse to simply deny the existance of a leader (authoritarian or not).

[Kowani]

He’s...following the Constitution to the letter. That’s pretty democratic.

Uhmm no, he's not.

quote]death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability certified by a medical board designated by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice with the approval of the National Assembly; abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote.[/quote]
[/quote]
I bolded it again. Those are the criteria for being removed.

[Sneudal]

Uhmm no, he's not.

That's exactly the provision the constitution states.

Nope.

[Sneudal]

Uhmm no, he's not.

death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability certified by a medical board designated by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice with the approval of the National Assembly; abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote.

I bolded it again. Those are the criteria for being removed.

Have any of those criteria been met? Nope.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

That's one view, of course, but the view of Maduro is that he is still the legal president, and that none of the demands of article 233 have actually been met, namely:

Bolded for emphasis. There’s why.

The text isn't clear on what 'abandonment' actually is. From reading the rest of the constitution, I get the idea that it means a situation in which the president has left Venezuela without authorisation for a period of more than five days.

I must say, I don't agree with the reasoning of Maduro, but as of yet the dispute has not been settled, so I don't wish for the title to give misleading information.

[Byzconia]

Most communist regimes fell without bloodshed in 1989.

Well, that's not strictly how it happened, is it.
It was one "regime", the Russian Soviet regime, on eastern Europe.

Most of Eastern Europe was very happy to leave that regime in the 1980s.
Oh, and a reminder that Russian tanks shelled the parliament building in 1993.

While you make a good point overall, those tanks were commanded by Yeltsin to attack the parliament because they were refusing his reforms. The effect of this was also to help Yeltsin shove through a new constitution that gave the President quasi-dictatorial powers and eventually led to the rise of Putin.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

I bolded it again. Those are the criteria for being removed.

Have any of those criteria been met? Nope.

Maduro has been removed from office by the Supreme Tribunal of Justice in exile. How much power they hold is questionable, but the case isn't as clear cut as you make it seem. You can also say that he has forfeited his position by forging the elections.