La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[Novus America]

I deny it because it lacks sources and the newspaper is known for being biased https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Y ... s#Iraq_War . Hell, it supported the Iraq War. If it supported one imperialist endeavour by the US government, why would it not support another?

And if you think that the rich in a capitalist country do not have any control over the media then I have news for you.

It doesn't matter whether the newspaper is 'owned' by a government or not. I'm comparing the fact that you linked me one heavily anti-communist, pro-imperialist newspaper to Telesur, which is pro-socialist and anti-imperialist.

http://en.granma.cu/mundo/2017-07-17/cu ... experience

Here is a source that is from a pro-socialist organisation that doesn't mention anything about doctors being coerced. It's as credible as the one you linked me. I'm saying both of these sources aren't credible, including the pro-socialist one. You know why? Because they don't have sufficient sources or evidence.

Now if you are going to continue to admit you don't have credible evidence, then we can be on our way.

Again you are making false equivalencies. Obviously the Cuban regime will not admit its doctors are coerced.
All you have is sources directly from the Cuban and Venezuelan regime.

The NYT has its flaws but again is a very different thing.
It still quite often takes an approach entirely the opposite of the US government.
It is also more to the left.
So it is a pretty reliable source here. You claim it is lying without offering any evidence it is lying.

[Nyasira]

And obviously a pro-US source that has published media before against the US's enemies would love to admit Cuban doctors are coerced. I've shown you sources from news outlets like CNN, which I'm very positive aren't backed by the Cuban and Venezuelan régime.

With that said, when I have provided a Telesur source, I have pointed out that it's Telesur and said that the article actually refers to the original source of information. Your NYTimes article is just hearsay. There is no video, no recording, nothing except an image of a man.

The NYT is not 'more to the left'; it is a liberal newspaper. Liberals are pro-capitalist. They are not 'closer to the left'. In fact, the centre-left to left to far-left categorisation is a horrible way of thinking since it doesn't work the same way as, the more left you go, the more left-wing policies you support.

It isn't reliable. Even then, just because it 'often takes an approach entirely the opposite of the US government' (because Trump is in power), that wouldn't make it reliable, or my Telesur sources would be reliable according to this criterion.

I'm claiming that it is unreliable, and there is a possibility that it is lying or at least sensationalising -- which all US media does. Find some better proof from a site that actually SHOWS me the evidence, and doesn't just tell me (and preferably one that doesn't keep forcing me to clear my cookies for a stupid paywall!)

Edit: I'm actually being very reasonable here. Most communists would simply laugh that you even dared show the 'New York Times' as a source.

Edit 2: Reading through it again, I found this:

One former Cuban supervisor said that she and other foreign medical workers were given counterfeit identification cards to vote in an election. Another doctor said she and others were told to give precise voting instructions to elderly patients, whose infirmities made them particularly easy to manipulate.

Hang on a minute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections ... _procedure

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... -successor

Voters register fingerprints and identity card details onto the Electoral Register, and these are verified during the voting process.[39] Voters sign a register to confirm that they have voted, and have a finger marked with election ink.[42]

Fake identification cards when there is fingerprinting?

[Novus America]

And obviously a pro-US source that has published media before against the US's enemies would love to admit Cuban doctors are coerced. I've shown you sources from news outlets like CNN, which I'm very positive aren't backed by the Cuban and Venezuelan régime.

With that said, when I have provided a Telesur source, I have pointed out that it's Telesur and said that the article actually refers to the original source of information. Your NYTimes article is just hearsay. There is no video, no recording, nothing except an image of a man.

The NYT is not 'more to the left'; it is a liberal newspaper. Liberals are pro-capitalist. They are not 'closer to the left'. In fact, the centre-left to left to far-left categorisation is a horrible way of thinking since it doesn't work the same way as, the more left you go, the more left-wing policies you support.

It isn't reliable. Even then, just because it 'often takes an approach entirely the opposite of the US government' (because Trump is in power), that wouldn't make it reliable, or my Telesur sources would be reliable according to this criterion.

I'm claiming that it is unreliable, and there is a possibility that it is lying or at least sensationalising -- which all US media does. Find some better proof from a site that actually SHOWS me the evidence, and doesn't just tell me (and preferably one that doesn't keep forcing me to clear my cookies for a stupid paywall!)

Edit: I'm actually being very reasonable here. Most communists would simply laugh that you even dared show the 'New York Times' as a source.

Edit 2: Reading through it again, I found this:

One former Cuban supervisor said that she and other foreign medical workers were given counterfeit identification cards to vote in an election. Another doctor said she and others were told to give precise voting instructions to elderly patients, whose infirmities made them particularly easy to manipulate.

Hang on a minute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections ... _procedure

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... -successor

Voters register fingerprints and identity card details onto the Electoral Register, and these are verified during the voting process.[39] Voters sign a register to confirm that they have voted, and have a finger marked with election ink.[42]

Fake identification cards when there is fingerprinting?

Well they could put their fingerprints on a fake card. The regime controls the register.
And you have provided no sources stating their is no politicization of the military controlled medical distribution system.

But again I see no point going further. You are not going to be convinced by anything.

[Nyasira]

And obviously a pro-US source that has published media before against the US's enemies would love to admit Cuban doctors are coerced. I've shown you sources from news outlets like CNN, which I'm very positive aren't backed by the Cuban and Venezuelan régime.

With that said, when I have provided a Telesur source, I have pointed out that it's Telesur and said that the article actually refers to the original source of information. Your NYTimes article is just hearsay. There is no video, no recording, nothing except an image of a man.

The NYT is not 'more to the left'; it is a liberal newspaper. Liberals are pro-capitalist. They are not 'closer to the left'. In fact, the centre-left to left to far-left categorisation is a horrible way of thinking since it doesn't work the same way as, the more left you go, the more left-wing policies you support.

It isn't reliable. Even then, just because it 'often takes an approach entirely the opposite of the US government' (because Trump is in power), that wouldn't make it reliable, or my Telesur sources would be reliable according to this criterion.

I'm claiming that it is unreliable, and there is a possibility that it is lying or at least sensationalising -- which all US media does. Find some better proof from a site that actually SHOWS me the evidence, and doesn't just tell me (and preferably one that doesn't keep forcing me to clear my cookies for a stupid paywall!)

Edit: I'm actually being very reasonable here. Most communists would simply laugh that you even dared show the 'New York Times' as a source.

Edit 2: Reading through it again, I found this:



Hang on a minute.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections ... _procedure

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/ ... -successor



Fake identification cards when there is fingerprinting?

Well they could put their fingerprints on a fake card. The regime controls the register.
And you have provided no sources stating their is no politicization of the military controlled medical distribution system.

But again I see no point going further. You are not going to be convinced by anything.

Does the régime control the register? How do they do that?

Why should I trust the rest of the source when it has a glaring inaccuracy, is unreliable and is full of hearsay?

And let's say the article is true. If someone is going to vote for the opposition, who are opposed to public healthcare, why should they be treated the same as the people who support the public healthcare system? The resources are limited and it would make more sense to give them to people who support socialised healthcare; there is still a private healthcare system the opposition voters can go to.

[Novus America]

Well they could put their fingerprints on a fake card. The regime controls the register.
And you have provided no sources stating their is no politicization of the military controlled medical distribution system.

But again I see no point going further. You are not going to be convinced by anything.

Does the régime control the register? How do they do that?

Why should I trust the rest of the source when it has a glaring inaccuracy, is unreliable and is full of hearsay?

And let's say the article is true. If someone is going to vote for the opposition, who are opposed to public healthcare, why should they be treated the same as the people who support the public healthcare system? The resources are limited and it would make more sense to give them to people who support socialised healthcare; there is still a private healthcare system the opposition voters can go to.

So you openly support the politicization of healthcare.
Okay. We get it.
You are diametrically opposed to us ideologically so of course you support authoritarian regimes as you are an authoritarian tankie.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Does the régime control the register? How do they do that?

Why should I trust the rest of the source when it has a glaring inaccuracy, is unreliable and is full of hearsay?

And let's say the article is true. If someone is going to vote for the opposition, who are opposed to public healthcare, why should they be treated the same as the people who support the public healthcare system? The resources are limited and it would make more sense to give them to people who support socialised healthcare; there is still a private healthcare system the opposition voters can go to.

So you openly support the politicization of healthcare.
Okay. We get it.
You are diametrically opposed to us ideologically so of course you support authoritarian regimes as you are an authoritarian tankie.

I don't think the opposition even wants to abolish the public healthcare system. That being said, Marxist-Leninists support all types of totalitarianism. Maduro is probably more kind to dissents than that poster would be, especially knowing that he supports Mao's policies as well.

[Novus America]

So you openly support the politicization of healthcare.
Okay. We get it.
You are diametrically opposed to us ideologically so of course you support authoritarian regimes as you are an authoritarian tankie.

I don't think the opposition even wants to abolish the public healthcare system. That being said, Marxist-Leninists support all types of totalitarianism. Maduro is probably more kind to dissents than that poster would be, especially knowing that he supports Mao's policies as well.

Despite that he probably ironically lives in a Western country.
Likes to exercise his political freedom while advocating crushing the freedoms of others.

[Nyasira]

First of all it is unknown whether that is even the case in Venezuela.

Second of all it is known that it isn't just Venezuela that does this, if that is the case. Allow me to take you off your high horse here, as a prominent US politician called Sarah Palin has had an allegation such as this:

Sarah Palin, former Republican Governor of Alaska, coined the term when she charged that proposed legislation would create a "death panel" of bureaucrats who would decide whether Americans—such as her elderly parents, or children with Down syndrome—were "worthy of medical care".

Is that not politicisation of healthcare? Hell, the opposition in Venezuela is for the privatisation of healthcare, which would be absolutely disastrous. Is that not politicisation?

I'm sorry, but I don't see how it's unfair that if you don't support a service, why should you have equal treatment as those who do support it when you are actively trying to undermine this service?

So you openly support the politicization of healthcare.
Okay. We get it.
You are diametrically opposed to us ideologically so of course you support authoritarian regimes as you are an authoritarian tankie.

I don't think the opposition even wants to abolish the public healthcare system. That being said, Marxist-Leninists support all types of totalitarianism. Maduro is probably more kind to dissents than that poster would be, especially knowing that he supports Mao's policies as well.

Do you have anything more to offer than ad hominems?

I don't think the opposition even wants to abolish the public healthcare system. That being said, Marxist-Leninists support all types of totalitarianism. Maduro is probably more kind to dissents than that poster would be, especially knowing that he supports Mao's policies as well.

Despite that he probably ironically lives in a Western country.
Likes to exercise his political freedom while advocating crushing the freedoms of others.

Implying Western countries are politically free. Also, not like you'd care, I do live in a Western country as of 2018. Before that I lived in an absolute monarchy in the MIddle East since I was born. I'm not even a supporter of monarchy and it was doing things far better than bourgeois Western democracy could achieve.

[Greater Miami Shores]

Does the régime control the register? How do they do that?

Why should I trust the rest of the source when it has a glaring inaccuracy, is unreliable and is full of hearsay?

And let's say the article is true. If someone is going to vote for the opposition, who are opposed to public healthcare, why should they be treated the same as the people who support the public healthcare system? The resources are limited and it would make more sense to give them to people who support socialised healthcare; there is still a private healthcare system the opposition voters can go to.

So you openly support the politicization of healthcare.
Okay. We get it.
You are diametrically opposed to us ideologically so of course you support authoritarian regimes as you are an authoritarian tankie.

I think the Problem is, which is actually not a problem, I think Nyasira really believes Venezuela under Maduro is a democratic nation, which is Nyasira's democratic right to do so and post it, from the nation Nyasira is posting from.

Probably thinks the same of Venezuela's main ally of Cuba under Raúl and Diaz-Canel, but if so that is the nation stater's democratic right to do so and their democratic right to post it, from the nations they are posting from.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Hell, the opposition in Venezuela is for the privatisation of healthcare...

Can I have some evidence of that?

[Aclion]

But in spite of this, Maduro isn't just some evil despot. Thanks to his negotiations with China, things like this are happening:

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Ven ... -0014.html 69 tons of medicine from China recently. Yes it's Telesur, but there is no reason Telesur would lie about that. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/13/amer ... index.html also states that Chinese aid has arrived in Venezuela.

If Maduro didn't care about his people, I wonder why he is trying hard to get insulin shipped and medicine shipped? It's almost as if the USA and the West are sabotaging Venezuela. :thinking:

Because like any despot he understands that his position is dependent not just on the military, but on being able to control access to people's basic needs.

[Novus America]

Universal healthcare (which I actually support) requires it actually be universal.
If you deny it to political opponents it is of course, not universal.
And if you support denying healthcare to political opponents you by default oppose universal healthcare.

[Nyasira]

They are in favour of economic liberalism. Not all of them will be in favour of total privatisation, but Guaidó's transition law aims to decentralise state-owned companies. Guaidó is a US puppet who is backed by other right-wing leaders like Bolsonaro who maintain right-wing economic plans. This isn't the first time the US has done this either, as Pedro Carmona — a right-wing businessman — was briefly installed as president during the coup in 2002-2003.

Universal healthcare (which I actually support) requires it actually be universal.
If you deny it to political opponents it is of course, not universal.
And if you support denying healthcare to political opponents you by default oppose universal healthcare.

And perhaps it isn't quite possible when your country is being infiltrated and sabotaged, so you have to make compromise.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

They are in favour of economic liberalism. Not all of them will be in favour of total privatisation, but Guaidó's transition law aims to decentralise state-owned companies. Guaidó is a US puppet who is backed by other right-wing leaders like Bolsonaro who maintain right-wing economic plans. This isn't the first time the US has done this either, as Pedro Carmona — a right-wing businessman — was briefly installed as president during the coup in 2002-2003.

Universal healthcare (which I actually support) requires it actually be universal.
If you deny it to political opponents it is of course, not universal.
And if you support denying healthcare to political opponents you by default oppose universal healthcare.

And perhaps it isn't quite possible when your country is being infiltrated and sabotaged, so you have to make compromise.

Not all Economic Liberals are going to privatize healthcare. The conservatives in the UK for example won't, and they support privatization.

[Nyasira]

They are in favour of economic liberalism. Not all of them will be in favour of total privatisation, but Guaidó's transition law aims to decentralise state-owned companies. Guaidó is a US puppet who is backed by other right-wing leaders like Bolsonaro who maintain right-wing economic plans. This isn't the first time the US has done this either, as Pedro Carmona — a right-wing businessman — was briefly installed as president during the coup in 2002-2003.



And perhaps it isn't quite possible when your country is being infiltrated and sabotaged, so you have to make compromise.

Not all Economic Liberals are going to privatize healthcare. The conservatives in the UK for example won't, and they support privatization.

Are you sure they won't, with how privatisation of the NHS has been increasing?

[Novus America]

They are in favour of economic liberalism. Not all of them will be in favour of total privatisation, but Guaidó's transition law aims to decentralise state-owned companies. Guaidó is a US puppet who is backed by other right-wing leaders like Bolsonaro who maintain right-wing economic plans. This isn't the first time the US has done this either, as Pedro Carmona — a right-wing businessman — was briefly installed as president during the coup in 2002-2003.

Universal healthcare (which I actually support) requires it actually be universal.
If you deny it to political opponents it is of course, not universal.
And if you support denying healthcare to political opponents you by default oppose universal healthcare.

And perhaps it isn't quite possible when your country is being infiltrated and sabotaged, so you have to make compromise.

I have no need to argue against you when you argue against yourself better than I can.
Stuff like this is not helping your cause.