La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[Novus America]

Maduro's a degenerate thug who's spent his entire presidency plundering his own country. He deserves to be removed.

The last time I checked Maduro isn't the one blocking shipments of insulin to Venezuela. Maduro isn't the one throwing food out and killing livestock to make it look like the grocery stores are empty. Maduro isn't the one whose supporters are setting black people on fire. Maduro isn't the one who declared himself president without an election. Maduro isn't the one causing sanctions that have stopped yet another child from receiving a transplant and is now dead.

^ infantile praises of a famine and slaughtering regime, on the internet, is yet another proof to bear in mind, that what has to be done is always what is just, not what is shouted.

I hope you're not referring to me as I haven't done any of those things.

Actually Maduro has done all those things.
He rigged an election to declare himself president, and it is his currency and price controls, as well as the military seizing control of food and medicine causing shortages.
His supporters have murdered large numbers.

It is not sanctions, which do NOT apply to medicine that caused the healthcare system to collapse before the sanctions even started.

Sanctions do not actually do that much.
Incompetence and corruption does a whole lot though.

[Nyasira]

The last time I checked Maduro isn't the one blocking shipments of insulin to Venezuela. Maduro isn't the one throwing food out and killing livestock to make it look like the grocery stores are empty. Maduro isn't the one whose supporters are setting black people on fire. Maduro isn't the one who declared himself president without an election. Maduro isn't the one causing sanctions that have stopped yet another child from receiving a transplant and is now dead.



I hope you're not referring to me as I haven't done any of those things.

Actually Maduro has done all those things.
He rigged an election to declare himself president, and it is his currency and price controls, as well as the military seizing control of food and medicine causing shortages.
His supporters have murdered large numbers.

It is not sanctions, which do NOT apply to medicine that caused the healthcare system to collapse before the sanctions even started.

Sanctions do not actually do that much.
Incompetence and corruption does a whole lot though.

You mean the election that the Council of Electoral Experts of Latin America said was legitimate? You mean the election that the UN conveniently didn't observe and that the right opposition was calling the UN not to observe?

How is it that sanctions are not applying to medicine? The US literally stopped insulin shipments.

[Novus America]

Actually Maduro has done all those things.
He rigged an election to declare himself president, and it is his currency and price controls, as well as the military seizing control of food and medicine causing shortages.
His supporters have murdered large numbers.

It is not sanctions, which do NOT apply to medicine that caused the healthcare system to collapse before the sanctions even started.

Sanctions do not actually do that much.
Incompetence and corruption does a whole lot though.

You mean the election that the Council of Electoral Experts of Latin America said was legitimate? You mean the election that the UN conveniently didn't observe and that the right opposition was calling the UN not to observe?

How is it that sanctions are not applying to medicine? The US literally stopped insulin shipments.

What election?
2018?
The vast majority of democratic countries stated it was a sham.
Though why would you care? You support dictatorship anyways!

And any evidence the US is blocking insulin shipments?

[Nyasira]

You mean the election that the Council of Electoral Experts of Latin America said was legitimate? You mean the election that the UN conveniently didn't observe and that the right opposition was calling the UN not to observe?

How is it that sanctions are not applying to medicine? The US literally stopped insulin shipments.

What election?
2018?
The vast majority of democratic countries stated it was a sham.
Though why would you care? You support dictatorship anyways!

And any evidence the US is blocking insulin shipments?

Yes, 2018.

'democratic countries', basically means any country that is affiliated with US, I'm assuming, considering how there are plenty of democratic countries that do recognise the elections as legitimate.

Any evidence that I support 'dictatorship'?

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neo ... venezuela/

As an independent U.N. expert, de Zayas visited Venezuela in 2017, the first such visit by a U.N. expert since the mid-1990s. His report on Venezuela was presented to the U.N. Human Rights Council in September of 2018. The report contained a scathing denunciation of U.S.-led economic sanctions against Venezuela. In the report, Zayas writes, “The effects of sanctions imposed by Presidents Obama and Trump and unilateral measures by Canada and the European Union have directly and indirectly aggravated the shortages in medicines such as insulin and anti-retroviral drugs.” He charged that the sanctions contributed to many deaths and that the sanctions contravene the human rights obligations of the countries imposing them. He added that “sanctions can amount to crimes against humanity” and he recommended that the International Criminal Court open an investigation into the nations imposing the sanctions. De Zayas also wrote a piece for The Independent newspaper in London where he compared the drumbeat for regime change in oil-rich Venezuela to the 2003 invasion of Iraq and the 2011 overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi in Libya.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/ho ... las-people

In 2017, 300,000 doses of insulin paid for by the Venezuelan state, were not delivered to the country because Citibank blocked the purchase of this product. The US bank refused to receive the funds that Venezuela was transferring to pay for the import of this huge shipment, which diabetes patients required. This meant the insulin remained stranded at an international port, despite the funds being available to pay for the medicine.

http://misionverdad.com/MV-IN-ENGLISH/f ... -venezuela

In this context, some 300,000 doses of insulin paid for by the Venezuelan government did not reach the country because Citibank boycotted its purchase. At the same time, the disembarkation of 18 million CLAP food boxes into Venezuela was interrupted by the obstacles imposed by the U.S. financial system, given that its authorities closed 52 Venezuelan bank accounts in entities such as Wells Fargo, East and City, because of their owners supposed links to the Venezuelan government.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/ANALYSIS/13529

The Venezuelan government has repeatedly condemned this. On Sept. 7, President Nicolas Maduro denounced in the National Constituent Assembly the hold up in an international port of a cargo of over 300,000 doses of insulin, thanks to the "Donald Trump-Julio Borges pact."

President Maduro explained that the U.S.-based Citibank financial institution refused to receive the money Venezuela was depositing to pay for the importation of this huge cargo of insulin for diabetic patients. As a result, the insulin shipment was held up for many days in port. President Maduro explained, "Even though we have the money to pay, they do not accept it."

https://www.celag.org/economic-conseque ... venezuela/

Some of those sources are left-wing or whatever, so here is a non-leftist one that establishes Citibank's role in foreign currency transactions in Venezuela.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN0ZS04E

“With no warning, Citibank says that in 30 days it will close the Central Bank and the Bank of Venezuela’s accounts,” Maduro said in a speech, adding that the government used the U.S. bank for transactions in the United States and globally.

[Novus America]

What election?
2018?
The vast majority of democratic countries stated it was a sham.
Though why would you care? You support dictatorship anyways!

And any evidence the US is blocking insulin shipments?

Yes, 2018.

'democratic countries', basically means any country that is affiliated with US, I'm assuming, considering how there are plenty of democratic countries that do recognise the elections as legitimate.

Any evidence that I support 'dictatorship'?

https://theintercept.com/2019/02/13/neo ... venezuela/

As an independent U.N. expert, de Zayas visited Venezuela in 2017, the first such visit by a U.N. expert since the mid-1990s. His report on Venezuela was presented to the U.N. Human Rights Council in September of 2018. The report contained a scathing denunciation of U.S.-led economic sanctions against Venezuela. In the report, Zayas writes, “The effects of sanctions imposed by Presidents Obama and Trump and unilateral measures by Canada and the European Union have directly and indirectly aggravated the shortages in medicines such as insulin and anti-retroviral drugs.” He charged that the sanctions contributed to many deaths and that the sanctions contravene the human rights obligations of the countries imposing them. He added that “sanctions can amount to crimes against humanity” and he recommended that the International Criminal Court open an investigation into the nations imposing the sanctions. De Zayas also wrote a piece for The Independent newspaper in London where he compared the drumbeat for regime change in oil-rich Venezuela to the 2003 invasion of Iraq and the 2011 overthrow of Muammar Gaddafi in Libya.

https://www.greenleft.org.au/content/ho ... las-people

In 2017, 300,000 doses of insulin paid for by the Venezuelan state, were not delivered to the country because Citibank blocked the purchase of this product. The US bank refused to receive the funds that Venezuela was transferring to pay for the import of this huge shipment, which diabetes patients required. This meant the insulin remained stranded at an international port, despite the funds being available to pay for the medicine.

http://misionverdad.com/MV-IN-ENGLISH/f ... -venezuela

In this context, some 300,000 doses of insulin paid for by the Venezuelan government did not reach the country because Citibank boycotted its purchase. At the same time, the disembarkation of 18 million CLAP food boxes into Venezuela was interrupted by the obstacles imposed by the U.S. financial system, given that its authorities closed 52 Venezuelan bank accounts in entities such as Wells Fargo, East and City, because of their owners supposed links to the Venezuelan government.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/ANALYSIS/13529

The Venezuelan government has repeatedly condemned this. On Sept. 7, President Nicolas Maduro denounced in the National Constituent Assembly the hold up in an international port of a cargo of over 300,000 doses of insulin, thanks to the "Donald Trump-Julio Borges pact."

President Maduro explained that the U.S.-based Citibank financial institution refused to receive the money Venezuela was depositing to pay for the importation of this huge cargo of insulin for diabetic patients. As a result, the insulin shipment was held up for many days in port. President Maduro explained, "Even though we have the money to pay, they do not accept it."

https://www.celag.org/economic-conseque ... venezuela/

Some of those sources are left-wing or whatever, so here is a non-leftist one that establishes Citibank's role in foreign currency transactions in Venezuela.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN0ZS04E

“With no warning, Citibank says that in 30 days it will close the Central Bank and the Bank of Venezuela’s accounts,” Maduro said in a speech, adding that the government used the U.S. bank for transactions in the United States and globally.

You support Maoism and China.
You obviously oppose democracy.

And it was not just US allied governments
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ap.svg.png
Notice how few democratic governments backed it.

Okay, so you source said the shipment was delayed because of the Venezuelan governments shady finances but went though anyways.
Hardly the us blocking all insulin.

[Nyasira]

My sources have talked about Obama and Trump's role in blockades that are worsening the shortages in Venezuela. You don't think the blockades have any influence on Citibank's attitude towards Venezuela?

[Novus America]

My sources have talked about Obama and Trump's role in blockades that are worsening the shortages in Venezuela. You don't think the blockades have any influence on Citibank's attitude towards Venezuela?

There is no blockade. Sanctions are not a blockade
And “worsening” is not causing. Chavez and Maduro caused them in the first place.
And why do other countries under sanctions not have the same degree of problems?
Your source only says some have been delayed.

Venezuela is not subject to the strictest sanctions but has the worst economic growth in the world.
So you cannot blame it on sanctions.
And yes the government seizure of medicine supplies and distribution is a big problem.

If the Venezuelan government stopped trying to control all access to medicine that would solve the problem.

[Nyasira]

My sources have talked about Obama and Trump's role in blockades that are worsening the shortages in Venezuela. You don't think the blockades have any influence on Citibank's attitude towards Venezuela?

There is no blockade. Sanctions are not a blockade
And “worsening” is not causing. Chavez and Maduro caused them in the first place.
And why do other countries under sanctions not have the same degree of problems?
Your source only says some have been delayed.

Venezuela is not subject to the strictest sanctions but has the worst economic growth in the world.
So you cannot blame it on sanctions.
And yes the government seizure of medicine supplies and distribution is a big problem.

If the Venezuelan government stopped trying to control all access to medicine that would solve the problem.

How are blockades not a form of sanction? Blocking financial transactions are very much a form of blockade!

I agree with you that Chavez and Maduro are culpable in the shortages — my main point that US sanctions have played a significant role in exacerbating them. However, the problem lies in the fact that Chavez mistakenly attempted to build socialism through bourgeois democracy and the reliance upon oil. I was responding to the notion that the military, by seizing control of food and medicine, has caused shortages, and that you said sanctions do not apply to medicine.

I never said that sanctions caused the shortages. I specifically named two instances where sanctions had an effect (ie the transplant and the insulin).

[Novus America]

There is no blockade. Sanctions are not a blockade
And “worsening” is not causing. Chavez and Maduro caused them in the first place.
And why do other countries under sanctions not have the same degree of problems?
Your source only says some have been delayed.

Venezuela is not subject to the strictest sanctions but has the worst economic growth in the world.
So you cannot blame it on sanctions.
And yes the government seizure of medicine supplies and distribution is a big problem.

If the Venezuelan government stopped trying to control all access to medicine that would solve the problem.

How are blockades not a form of sanction? Blocking financial transactions are very much a form of blockade!

I agree with you that Chavez and Maduro are culpable in the shortages — my main point that US sanctions have played a significant role in exacerbating them. However, the problem lies in the fact that Chavez mistakenly attempted to build socialism through bourgeois democracy and the reliance upon oil. I was responding to the notion that the military, by seizing control of food and medicine, has caused shortages, and that you said sanctions do not apply to medicine.

I never said that sanctions caused the shortages. I specifically named two instances where sanctions had an effect (ie the transplant and the insulin).

You clearly do not know what a blockade is
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade
“A blockade should not be confused with an embargo or sanctions, which are legal barriers to trade. ”
A blockade is actually using ships and military forces to block the things from going in and out.

But so you admit Chavez and Maduro are failures who caused this mess.
Good.

[Nyasira]

I am not referring to just trade barriers. My use of the word sanction reflects another meaning as a penalty. A blockade is a penalty, ergo a form of sanctioning a country that the US is opposed to.

We can yell about definitions all day long. Wikipedia is not the sole dictator of definitions. I have looked at another source and it simply says a blockade is sealing off a place to prevents goods and people from leaving, which sounds rather apposite considering how they are blocking goods such as insulin.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Chavez and Maduro are failures; I have my criticisms of them, but I still support them even if I disagree with their methods and the ideology of Socialism of the 21st Century.

[Novus America]

I am not referring to just trade barriers. My use of the word sanction reflects another meaning as a penalty. A blockade is a penalty, ergo a form of sanctioning a country that the US is opposed to.

We can yell about definitions all day long. Wikipedia is not the sole dictator of definitions. I have looked at another source and it simply says a blockade is sealing off a place to prevents goods and people from leaving, which sounds rather apposite considering how they are blocking goods such as insulin.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Chavez and Maduro are failures; I have my criticisms of them, but I still support them even if I disagree with their methods and the ideology of Socialism of the 21st Century.

A private bank delaying acceptance of payment is not sealing off a country.
Venezuela imports and exports plenty still.

A blockade is a military action. Sanctions are a different thing.

And considering that they have overseen the worst economic depression in recent history, worse than the Great Depression yes they are failures.

[Nyasira]

I am not referring to just trade barriers. My use of the word sanction reflects another meaning as a penalty. A blockade is a penalty, ergo a form of sanctioning a country that the US is opposed to.

We can yell about definitions all day long. Wikipedia is not the sole dictator of definitions. I have looked at another source and it simply says a blockade is sealing off a place to prevents goods and people from leaving, which sounds rather apposite considering how they are blocking goods such as insulin.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Chavez and Maduro are failures; I have my criticisms of them, but I still support them even if I disagree with their methods and the ideology of Socialism of the 21st Century.

A private bank delaying acceptance of payment is not sealing off a country.
Venezuela imports and exports plenty still.

A blockade is a military action. Sanctions are a different thing.

And considering that they have overseen the worst economic depression in recent history, worse than the Great Depression yes they are failures.

It's not just the private bank that is taking action against Venezuela.

[Novus America]

A private bank delaying acceptance of payment is not sealing off a country.
Venezuela imports and exports plenty still.

A blockade is a military action. Sanctions are a different thing.

And considering that they have overseen the worst economic depression in recent history, worse than the Great Depression yes they are failures.

It's not just the private bank that is taking action against Venezuela.

And? Some restrictions on payments is still not a blockade. Venezuela still imports and exports stuff.
A blockade is a military action.

[Nyasira]

According to a strict military action definition, then it isn't a blockade as of yet. That's not to say that the sanctions haven't caused damage, however. It's not just private banks that are crippling Venezuela. According to a definition that resembles economic isolation, I don't see the term blockade as inappropriate. Multiple media outlets use this term to describe the situation in Venezuela.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfU-LMDYgIk

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/2nd ... L_Ck3BNOck (Telesur, but it links to the original tweet.)

[Nova Cyberia]

I am not referring to just trade barriers. My use of the word sanction reflects another meaning as a penalty. A blockade is a penalty, ergo a form of sanctioning a country that the US is opposed to.

We can yell about definitions all day long. Wikipedia is not the sole dictator of definitions. I have looked at another source and it simply says a blockade is sealing off a place to prevents goods and people from leaving, which sounds rather apposite considering how they are blocking goods such as insulin.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Chavez and Maduro are failures; I have my criticisms of them, but I still support them even if I disagree with their methods and the ideology of Socialism of the 21st Century.

They are complete failures. They destroyed and plundered their own country, and you defend them.

[Novus America]

According to a strict military action definition, then it isn't a blockade as of yet. That's not to say that the sanctions haven't caused damage, however. It's not just private banks that are crippling Venezuela. According to a definition that resembles economic isolation, I don't see the term blockade as inappropriate. Multiple media outlets use this term to describe the situation in Venezuela.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfU-LMDYgIk

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/2nd ... L_Ck3BNOck (Telesur, but it links to the original tweet.)

Telesur is owned by the Venezuelan government.
Some restrictions on government money (which again only apply to the Venezuelan government, not private companies and individuals) is not a blockade.

Nor is it the cause of the problems as you yourself conceded.

[Nyasira]

Yes, Telesur is linked to the Venezuelan government... Hence why I clarified that it links to the original tweet.

Concession would involve my denying of Maduro and Chavez' responsibility in the shortages. I never denied them, therefore I cannot 'concede'. The post I made that started this fiasco never said 'Maduro didn't cause shortages'; it said that he isn't behind the sanctions that are causing specific cases that I've mentioned before.

[Novus America]

Yes, Telesur is linked to the Venezuelan government... Hence why I clarified that it links to the original tweet.

Concession would involve my denying of Maduro and Chavez' responsibility in the shortages. I never denied them, therefore I cannot 'concede'. The post I made that started this fiasco never said 'Maduro didn't cause shortages'; it said that he isn't behind the sanctions that are causing specific cases that I've mentioned before.

But he is as well. Without Maduro there would be no sanctions.
See the US is not required to do business with hostile countries and why would we want to?
If you are a businessman who goes out of your way to anger your biggest customer, you are to blame when you lose that customer.

[Nyasira]

Yes, Telesur is linked to the Venezuelan government... Hence why I clarified that it links to the original tweet.

Concession would involve my denying of Maduro and Chavez' responsibility in the shortages. I never denied them, therefore I cannot 'concede'. The post I made that started this fiasco never said 'Maduro didn't cause shortages'; it said that he isn't behind the sanctions that are causing specific cases that I've mentioned before.

But he is as well. Without Maduro there would be no sanctions.
See the US is not required to do business with hostile countries and why would we want to?
If you are a businessman who goes out of your way to anger your biggest customer, you are to blame when you lose that customer.

I know. That's my point. The USA sanctions Venezuela because the USA doesn't agree with the leadership.

Venezuela is not the one being hostile, however. That is the USA. Venezuela has China and Russia it could trade with, it isn't as easy as just that, since the USA is actively trying to start a coup and régime change.

But in spite of this, Maduro isn't just some evil despot. Thanks to his negotiations with China, things like this are happening:

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Ven ... -0014.html 69 tons of medicine from China recently. Yes it's Telesur, but there is no reason Telesur would lie about that. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/13/amer ... index.html also states that Chinese aid has arrived in Venezuela.

If Maduro didn't care about his people, I wonder why he is trying hard to get insulin shipped and medicine shipped? It's almost as if the USA and the West are sabotaging Venezuela. :thinking:

[Novus America]

But he is as well. Without Maduro there would be no sanctions.
See the US is not required to do business with hostile countries and why would we want to?
If you are a businessman who goes out of your way to anger your biggest customer, you are to blame when you lose that customer.

I know. That's my point. The USA sanctions Venezuela because the USA doesn't agree with the leadership.

Venezuela is not the one being hostile, however. That is the USA. Venezuela has China and Russia it could trade with, it isn't as easy as just that, since the USA is actively trying to start a coup and régime change.

But in spite of this, Maduro isn't just some evil despot. Thanks to his negotiations with China, things like this are happening:

https://www.telesurenglish.net/news/Ven ... -0014.html 69 tons of medicine from China recently. Yes it's Telesur, but there is no reason Telesur would lie about that. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/05/13/amer ... index.html also states that Chinese aid has arrived in Venezuela.

If Maduro didn't care about his people, I wonder why he is trying hard to get insulin shipped and medicine shipped? It's almost as if the USA and the West are sabotaging Venezuela. :thinking:

Maduro has absolutely shown hostility toward the US and certainly is a despot.
The military and regime control importation, sale and distribution of medicine. So who do you think really benefits?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/17/worl ... ctors.html

[Nyasira]

I'd be angry towards the US too if the US destroyed other countries near me, continues to do so and is looking to undermine any attempts at socialism.

I looked through your article and it's all just anecdotes with no links to back them up. I search up the names and quotes from the article and there are only few results, and they are all from sources that mention 'This came from the New York Times' or are the same text as the NYT verbatim. There is no credibility in any of this; I can't tell whether these are real people or not.

This just seems like another pro-US newspaper that is making hit pieces against Cuba and Venezuela. What also doesn't help is the fact that it keeps forcing me to refresh my cookies so that I don't have to take part in its paywall scam.

[Novus America]

I'd be angry towards the US too if the US destroyed other countries near me, continues to do so and is looking to undermine any attempts at socialism.

I looked through your article and it's all just anecdotes with no links to back them up. I search up the names and quotes from the article and there are only few results, and they are all from sources that mention 'This came from the New York Times' or are the same text as the NYT verbatim. There is no credibility in any of this; I can't tell whether these are real people or not.

This just seems like another pro-US newspaper that is making hit pieces against Cuba and Venezuela. What also doesn't help is the fact that it keeps forcing me to refresh my cookies so that I don't have to take part in its paywall scam.

Interviews are legitimate reporting.
But now you are reduced to “I will not trust any source that disagrees with me”.

[Nyasira]

Not really. Are there videos of the interview? Because if so I'd be more inclined to trust them rather than a source that has no sources other than '[Spanish name]' said '[quote that cannot be found documented anywhere else].'

You have already dismissed a Telesur source I posted when it actually had a link to the original tweet, so you can get off your high horse about me dismissing sources because they disagree with me. If I shared a Telesur source (as that is as credible as the NYTimes) that simply said: 'Alejandro Guevara Castro said Venezuela is the richest country on Earth' with no sources or video, would you trust it? No, you wouldn't.

[Novus America]

Not really. Are there videos of the interview? Because if so I'd be more inclined to trust them rather than a source that has no sources other than '[Spanish name]' said '[quote that cannot be found documented anywhere else].'

You have already dismissed a Telesur source I posted when it actually had a link to the original tweet, so you can get off your high horse about me dismissing sources because they disagree with me. If I shared a Telesur source (as that is as credible as the NYTimes) that simply said: 'Alejandro Guevara Castro said Venezuela is the richest country on Earth' with no sources or video, would you trust it? No, you wouldn't.

NYT is not owned by the US government, often harshly criticizes the US government and its policies. The two are not remotely comparable.

But you are not going to be convinced obviously.
No matter what I showed you would deny it.

[Nyasira]

I deny it because it lacks sources and the newspaper is known for being biased https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_Y ... s#Iraq_War . Hell, it supported the Iraq War. If it supported one imperialist endeavour by the US government, why would it not support another?

And if you think that the rich in a capitalist country do not have any control over the media then I have news for you.

It doesn't matter whether the newspaper is 'owned' by a government or not. I'm comparing the fact that you linked me one heavily anti-communist, pro-imperialist newspaper to Telesur, which is pro-socialist and anti-imperialist.

http://en.granma.cu/mundo/2017-07-17/cu ... experience

Here is a source that is from a pro-socialist organisation that doesn't mention anything about doctors being coerced. It's as credible as the one you linked me. I'm saying both of these sources aren't credible, including the pro-socialist one. You know why? Because they don't have sufficient sources or evidence.

Now if you are going to continue to admit you don't have credible evidence, then we can be on our way.