NationStates

Cedoria wrote:

Athonuna wrote:I am completely against socialism. I'm sick of hearing people saying 'That's not real socialism!' and 'Venezuela's economy is fine', because it's not, and people are starving and dying over there. The richest country in South America suddenly turns into one of the worst third world countries out there? That doesn't just happen. This is entirely the fault of socialism and the Maduro regime, and I look forward to the potential Guaido holds.

I'll just leave this source here...
https://www.foxnews.com/world/what-soci ... ez-crusade


So you can't accuse it of having leftie bias...


70% private economy is not socialist by any description. A governing party being socialist says nothing about the state of the overall economy, hence why Australia was not Socialist between 2007-2013 despite being run by a political party which was democratic socialist (according to itself).

Don't even need the 'real socialism' tag, it's not fake socialism either. It's just kind of sad. They basically just nationalised the oil and very little else.

That was 9 years ago. Have a more recent source?
That just says what Venezuela was in 2010. Not what it is today.
Very likely the numbers greatly changed.

So with the Guaido faction floundering, Guaido himself possibly facing arrest, Russia asserting their right to support a friendly regime in the US's "near abroad," few of the security forces abandoning the Maduro regime, sanctions so far showing little result, other than possibly more power outages, epidemics and possible famine, I have to ask again...

...just what was Plan B again?

The feckless US administration certainly seems to have gone off half-cocked. I shudder to contemplate the effect on the nation's power and prestige of its looming failure to pull off regime change in its own backyard.

US-SSR wrote:So with the Guaido faction floundering, Guaido himself possibly facing arrest, Russia asserting their right to support a friendly regime in the US's "near abroad," few of the security forces abandoning the Maduro regime, sanctions so far showing little result, other than possibly more power outages, epidemics and possible famine, I have to ask again...

...just what was Plan B again?

The feckless US administration certainly seems to have gone off half-cocked. I shudder to contemplate the effect on the nation's power and prestige of its looming failure to pull off regime change in its own backyard.

What would you propose be done?

^ @Us-ssr, it is your engulfed mind the dirt, half-cocked thing.

also, no, other poster @Novus_America, you have not to demand to the previous poster to write a long spit nonsense about what has to be done. it is enough as it is.

What should have been done would have been a searching analysis of the liklihood of the Guaido faction's success in the face of the Maduro regime's control of nearly all of the levers of power in Venezuela. That analysis would have taken into account the possible countermoves -- some of which we are seeing now -- by Russia, China, Cuba and Maduro's other supporters; the issue of sanctions harming the Venezuelan people and the possible responses to that (via the UN, Red Cross, etc.); a realistic estimation of how much military force might be required, one that imo would show the futility and disaster of that approach; possibly the creation of a Venezuelan government in exile; etc., etc. It would have included, or at least indicated, a Plan B, Plan C, Plan D and any number of responses to different possible outcomes and contingencies

It would have taken considerable time and expertise to put together such an analysis but at the end of the process someone would have had the information needed to make an informed decision about an international crisis involving important US interests. And make no mistake, Venezuela does. These include but go well beyond oil supplies. They reach the influence and prestige the US will enjoy -- or forfeit -- for years to come in a region of the world closely bound to its own economic and political fortunes.

Instead what we appear to have got is this: the Guaido faction used their connection with Sen. Rubio to push the case for quick, unthinking US action with National Security Advisor Bolton, Secretary Pompeo, convicted evidence withholder Abrams and any number of others, which essentially was pushing on open doors. It goes without saying that obtaining Trump's approval was no more than a matter of convincing him at any random moment that all this would provide an applause line for one of his rallies, his regard for the national interests of the US, his patience and appreciation for the complexities involved and his compassion for the Venezuelan people all being exactly nil.

All of which leads us to the situation we face today in which our forlorn hopes for a quick, easy transition in Venezuela have been replaced by the rapidly vanishing chance of economic and civil collapse there somehow changing the outlooks of those individuals whose personal fortunes, even lives, depend on their hanging on to whatever power they can muster for as long as humanly possible. The implications for the US of this looming fiasco are still unclear but it becomes less likely with each passing day that any of them will be positive.

US-SSR wrote:What should have been done would have been a searching analysis of the liklihood of the Guaido faction's success in the face of the Maduro regime's control of nearly all of the levers of power in Venezuela. That analysis would have taken into account the possible countermoves -- some of which we are seeing now -- by Russia, China, Cuba and Maduro's other supporters; the issue of sanctions harming the Venezuelan people and the possible responses to that (via the UN, Red Cross, etc.); a realistic estimation of how much military force might be required, one that imo would show the futility and disaster of that approach; possibly the creation of a Venezuelan government in exile; etc., etc. It would have included, or at least indicated, a Plan B, Plan C, Plan D and any number of responses to different possible outcomes and contingencies

It would have taken considerable time and expertise to put together such an analysis but at the end of the process someone would have had the information needed to make an informed decision about an international crisis involving important US interests. And make no mistake, Venezuela does. These include but go well beyond oil supplies. They reach the influence and prestige the US will enjoy -- or forfeit -- for years to come in a region of the world closely bound to its own economic and political fortunes.

Instead what we appear to have got is this: the Guaido faction used their connection with Sen. Rubio to push the case for quick, unthinking US action with National Security Advisor Bolton, Secretary Pompeo, convicted evidence withholder Abrams and any number of others, which essentially was pushing on open doors. It goes without saying that obtaining Trump's approval was no more than a matter of convincing him at any random moment that all this would provide an applause line for one of his rallies, his regard for the national interests of the US, his patience and appreciation for the complexities involved and his compassion for the Venezuelan people all being exactly nil.

All of which leads us to the situation we face today in which our forlorn hopes for a quick, easy transition in Venezuela have been replaced by the rapidly vanishing chance of economic and civil collapse there somehow changing the outlooks of those individuals whose personal fortunes, even lives, depend on their hanging on to whatever power they can muster for as long as humanly possible. The implications for the US of this looming fiasco are still unclear but it becomes less likely with each passing day that any of them will be positive.

Okay, these are fair points.
The simple fact is you are correct, there is no quick, clean and easy way to get the Chavistas to step down, unfortunately.

In case anyone's still listening, here's a chilling account of the blackout in Maracaibo from the Guardian.

@Us-ssr, a mewolf lenght praise of scattered mafia regimes is not 'an informed decision'. thanks god, this is not how politics work.

when it is, that is the case for inept regimes, as the ill minded tyrants you are so praised when you cite them, so often do.

there is no need, this particoular caise, of beeing master informed to know which is the legitimate above the law head of state and where is famine and bloody regime.

you don t need degree for that, as the supporters are well declared, their diplomacy-chess confidence lies in brute force against inhabitants. you need merely straight way of mind.

Perhaps President Trump is waiting closer to re election time to get rid of Maduro, so he can win the Cuban and Venezuelan vote in Florida, if he manages to overthrow the trifecta regimes of Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba he assures Florida as a Republican state in 2020 for sure.

Cedoria wrote:

Athonuna wrote:I am completely against socialism. I'm sick of hearing people saying 'That's not real socialism!' and 'Venezuela's economy is fine', because it's not, and people are starving and dying over there. The richest country in South America suddenly turns into one of the worst third world countries out there? That doesn't just happen. This is entirely the fault of socialism and the Maduro regime, and I look forward to the potential Guaido holds.

I'll just leave this source here...
https://www.foxnews.com/world/what-soci ... ez-crusade


So you can't accuse it of having leftie bias...


70% private economy is not socialist by any description. A governing party being socialist says nothing about the state of the overall economy, hence why Australia was not Socialist between 2007-2013 despite being run by a political party which was democratic socialist (according to itself).

Don't even need the 'real socialism' tag, it's not fake socialism either. It's just kind of sad. They basically just nationalised the oil and very little else.

It looks like a kleptocracy masquerading as socialism. However most socialism ends up that way. The govnerment has too great an ability to distribute resources then resources will go to its cronies. With the people only receiving enough to keep them in line.

Venezuelan Balsero Rafters like Cuban Balsero Rafters Like Vietnamese Balsero Rafters Boat People.

At least 25 Venezuelans drowned and 9 were rescued, at least 3,700,000 Venezuelans have emigrated to other nations,

Officials say they are searching for 25 people now believed missing from a boat that left Venezuela and sank in the Caribbean Sea before reaching the nearby island of Trinidad.

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wi ... s-62633040

https://www.worldtribune.com/venezuelan ... st-at-sea/

Posted by Greed and Death
It looks like a kleptocracy masquerading as socialism.

It is an eternal Kleptocracy dictatorship regime, like the Cuban regime.

Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores wrote:Perhaps President Trump is waiting closer to re election time to get rid of Maduro, so he can win the Cuban and Venezuelan vote in Florida, if he manages to overthrow the trifecta regimes of Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba he assures Florida as a Republican state in 2020 for sure.

Perhaps monkeys will fly out of Raul Castro's ass. There's no button to push or lever to throw to overthrow governments. And as the world is seeing in Venezuela, wishful thinking is not a strategy.

US-SSR wrote:

Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores wrote:Perhaps President Trump is waiting closer to re election time to get rid of Maduro, so he can win the Cuban and Venezuelan vote in Florida, if he manages to overthrow the trifecta regimes of Venezuela, Nicaragua and Cuba he assures Florida as a Republican state in 2020 for sure.

Perhaps monkeys will fly out of Raul Castro's ass. There's no button to push or lever to throw to overthrow governments. And as the world is seeing in Venezuela, wishful thinking is not a strategy.

Tossing a jdam or 10 in Caracas IS however. Maybe a MOAB too.

^ i m not american, i mean im not from this continent, nevertheless i don t see how Trump could be a noise for Chavez successors regime, rather the opposite.

after all, america has bought the oil and so granted the regime, the menace of reducing it means that it does substain the regime.

the foreign investors that ensure the few remnants of decent production are american, and of course they act in accordance to the locals. Guaido' has no friendship with Trump's court.

certain with Trump you won t see an overthrow of regime, instead a law abiding president would depose it. Trump substains chinese through russians, the absolutist regime last stand.

A reported coup d'état might be underway in Venezuela.



CBS — https://www.cbsnews.com/news/venezuela- ... 019-04-30/

The Guardian — https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... -live-news

CNN — https://www.cnn.com/americas/live-news/ ... index.html

BBC — https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-48103858

Fox News — https://www.foxnews.com/world/venezuela ... as-airbase

CNN is also saying a coup attempt is underway.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:CNN is also saying a coup attempt is underway.

I can only hope there won't be too much bloodshed

LiberNovusAmericae wrote:

CrvenaParsa wrote:
Maybe for homosexuals and foreign investors.

homosexuality has nothing to do with the crisis in Venezuela.

To be fair, instituting a "homocracy" would be a far better reason for a coup than a "humanitarian intervention" (Newspeak for CIA subversion), because, as we saw in Iraq, that didn't go quite well, did it? Neither did it go well in Chile when the GDP started crashing once Chicago School was fully implemented, and it took a swift renationalization of the country's key industries and dismissing the Chicago boys that the Chilean Miracle started. Textbook keynesian economics, Pinochet-style.

Crisconsin wrote:A reported coup d'état might be underway in Venezuela.

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CBS — https://www.cbsnews.com/news/venezuela- ... 019-04-30/

The Guardian — https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... -live-news

CNN — https://www.cnn.com/americas/live-news/ ... index.html

BBC — https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-48103858

Fox News — https://www.foxnews.com/world/venezuela ... as-airbase

Remember 1973...

Livestream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV5ehsyN6Ww

Heavy gunfire right now. boom boom boom

Nakena wrote:Livestream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV5ehsyN6Ww

Heavy gunfire right now. boom boom boom

Heavy gunfire? Maybe you meant the lasers of Freedom and Liberty coming to save Vuvuzela from the hellspawns of Satan and Mao himself? /s
Seriously, war never changes unfortunately.

Lots of gunfire in the capital and around places like airbases. The opposition gov claims to have the support of some of the military, this might rapidly be heading towards full civil war.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Lots of gunfire in the capital and around places like airbases. The opposition gov claims to have the support of some of the military, this might rapidly be heading towards full civil war.

Let's just hope it won't last as long as Syria's war did if it indeed comes to that. Imagine the current mass exodus from Venezuela into Cucuta and Brazil but ramped up to 11. Complete horror show.

Washington Resistance Army wrote:Lots of gunfire in the capital and around places like airbases. The opposition gov claims to have the support of some of the military, this might rapidly be heading towards full civil war.

Unfortunately, I think it's inevitable if the Opposition wants to get rid of Murado. Considering how hard-headed he is, there is no way he would step down peacefully.

The Cuban government regime also confirms the Venezuelan coup attempt and reaffirms its support for the Chavista Bolivarian Revolution of Venezuela.