La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[Puertollano]

Failed? Saudi Arabia and (some) members of OPEC colluding to drop the prices by 60% is failed?

https://www.mepc.org/speeches/saudi-ara ... e-collapse

If we're speaking 'practically', then you should admit the U.S. sanctions are preventing the entering of food and medicine into the country.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pag ... 1&LangID=E

Read your own source,
“Saudi Arabia is used to being blamed when prices seem too high. Now it's being blamed for prices being too low. But the Kingdom had nothing to do with either the increase in supply or the recession-induced decrease in demand for oil. Nor did it bring about the collapse in prices. But its position as the world's swing supplier gives it uncommon influence on expectations. And, as Riyadh saw it, the rapidly falling prices for oil confronted it with some stark choices.”

Besides the oil prices are cyclical. Everyone (except apparently the Chavistas) know this.
They go up and down. Oil is cyclical and capital intensive.
Meaning when prices are high you have to save for when they drop again.
Meaning a successful petro state must practice careful fiscal management.

If they fail to practice careful fiscal management that is their fault, not the oil’s fault.

The US simply is no longer buying Venezuelan oil. Which we have no obligation to buy. Why should we buy their oil?

We are offering them food and medicine but the government refuses to take it.
Clearly the government is to blame.

No, obviously you didn't read it entirely:

"It is clearly smarter to eliminate current and future competition and assure future market share than to help competitors remain profitable at the expense of Saudi and other Arab oil producers’ patrimony and well-being in the decades to come. There are many reasons for this."

"In sum, the Kingdom’s stance in OPEC and policies on oil pricing constrain future supply growth, inhibit the development of alternatives to oil, and preserve market share for it and other low-cost oil producers. Riyadh has reminded the world and the region of its power, demonstrated its independence, and served its geopolitical interests. It can afford to stick with its strategy and policies until investors in countries producing more expensive oil have been forced out of the market. In time, oil prices will rise, plussing up the Kingdom’s revenue stream. From the Saudi point of view, all this makes sense even without the geopolitical bonuses it brings. The new king, his crown prince, and the crown prince's heir apparent all participated in formulating current policies. There is no reason to expect them to alter their calculus about what's in the Kingdom's interest anytime soon."

Yes, so am I to believe Elliot Abrams is being kind-hearted when he force feeds Venezuela with his trucks at the border? After he smuggled in weapons to Central America through the guise of 'humanitarian aid'? Venezuela is accepting aid, and accepting it through the proper means. The U.S. shouldn't politicize aid at the border and rather do it through the Red Cross and the UN. What was in the trucks was pathetic to the amount of food and medication prevented from entering Venezuela by the SANCTIONS. That's why it was a cynical photo-shoot.

[Puertollano]

Failed? Saudi Arabia and (some) members of OPEC colluding to drop the prices by 60% is failed?

https://www.mepc.org/speeches/saudi-ara ... e-collapse

If we're speaking 'practically', then you should admit the U.S. sanctions are preventing the entering of food and medicine into the country.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pag ... 1&LangID=E

Cartels raise prices. The fuck why would you need a cartel to lower prices? Horizontal collusion is not necessary to depress prices - indeed that if certain members of the cartel lower their prices while others don't, it's a sign of the cartel's failure.

Before US sanctions it's already hard to get food and medicine into Venezuela. The ones that impoverished the Venezuelans is the Venezuelan government.

Mostly Saudi Arabia, rather than the entire OPEC. The facts don't lie.

What's the logic in that. Does impoverishment before US sanctions make it justifiable to reduce the amount of food and medicine available in the country? I thought this was for humanitarian reasons?

[Novus America]

Read your own source,
“Saudi Arabia is used to being blamed when prices seem too high. Now it's being blamed for prices being too low. But the Kingdom had nothing to do with either the increase in supply or the recession-induced decrease in demand for oil. Nor did it bring about the collapse in prices. But its position as the world's swing supplier gives it uncommon influence on expectations. And, as Riyadh saw it, the rapidly falling prices for oil confronted it with some stark choices.”

Besides the oil prices are cyclical. Everyone (except apparently the Chavistas) know this.
They go up and down. Oil is cyclical and capital intensive.
Meaning when prices are high you have to save for when they drop again.
Meaning a successful petro state must practice careful fiscal management.

If they fail to practice careful fiscal management that is their fault, not the oil’s fault.

The US simply is no longer buying Venezuelan oil. Which we have no obligation to buy. Why should we buy their oil?

We are offering them food and medicine but the government refuses to take it.
Clearly the government is to blame.

No, obviously you didn't read it entirely:

"It is clearly smarter to eliminate current and future competition and assure future market share than to help competitors remain profitable at the expense of Saudi and other Arab oil producers’ patrimony and well-being in the decades to come. There are many reasons for this."

"In sum, the Kingdom’s stance in OPEC and policies on oil pricing constrain future supply growth, inhibit the development of alternatives to oil, and preserve market share for it and other low-cost oil producers. Riyadh has reminded the world and the region of its power, demonstrated its independence, and served its geopolitical interests. It can afford to stick with its strategy and policies until investors in countries producing more expensive oil have been forced out of the market. In time, oil prices will rise, plussing up the Kingdom’s revenue stream. From the Saudi point of view, all this makes sense even without the geopolitical bonuses it brings. The new king, his crown prince, and the crown prince's heir apparent all participated in formulating current policies. There is no reason to expect them to alter their calculus about what's in the Kingdom's interest anytime soon."

Yes, so am I to believe Elliot Abrams is being kind-hearted when he force feeds Venezuela with his trucks at the border? After he smuggled in weapons to Central America through the guise of 'humanitarian aid'? Venezuela is accepting aid, and accepting it through the proper means. The U.S. shouldn't politicize aid at the border and rather do it through the Red Cross and the UN. What was in the trucks was pathetic to the amount of food and medication prevented from entering Venezuela by the SANCTIONS. That's why it was a cynical photo-shoot.

Umm I am not sure what you are trying to say here.
Your source still says Saudi Arabia did NOT cause the oil price crash.

Sure OPEC is bad for oil consumers. Venezuela is a member of OPEC however.
Venezuela is a one of the perpetrators.

But this does not change that oil is capital intensive and cyclical.

And the the Chavistas clearly know nothing about oil.
When prices are high, you have to save a good portion of the proceeds for when they are low.
Oil industry requires fiscal responsibility.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnew ... ncna974206
Venezuela is not accepting aid, Maduro denies there is any need for it all!
And of course we want to make sure it goes to the people, not the regime.

US sanctions do not apply to food or medicine. At all.
They only prevent us oil buyers from sending money to the Chavistas.

[Novus America]

Cartels raise prices. The fuck why would you need a cartel to lower prices? Horizontal collusion is not necessary to depress prices - indeed that if certain members of the cartel lower their prices while others don't, it's a sign of the cartel's failure.

Before US sanctions it's already hard to get food and medicine into Venezuela. The ones that impoverished the Venezuelans is the Venezuelan government.

Mostly Saudi Arabia, rather than the entire OPEC. The facts don't lie.

What's the logic in that. Does impoverishment before US sanctions make it justifiable to reduce the amount of food and medicine available in the country? I thought this was for humanitarian reasons?

Saudi Arabia is a important member of OPEC. So was Venezuela before it destroyed its oil industry. There is no honor amongst thieves either. OPEC is corrupt sure.
But Venezuela knew this and still chose to stay in OPEC anyways.

I have no sympathy for OPEC criminals when their cartel fails.

And again the US has placed sanctions on oil transactions with the Chavista regime only.
It has not placed any restrictions on food and medicine.

Also Maduro says there is no humanitarian crisis. So you are acknowledging Maduro is a liar. This is at least a step in the right direction.

[Darussalam]

Mostly Saudi Arabia, rather than the entire OPEC. The facts don't lie.

What's the logic in that. Does impoverishment before US sanctions make it justifiable to reduce the amount of food and medicine available in the country? I thought this was for humanitarian reasons?

The facts don't lie, but the framing that price lowering is caused by collusion is rather suspect, if obviously absurd for anyone familiar with basic definition of a cartel. Since without collusion, you're essentially arguing that any country that lowers price to make their oil exports more competitive is... bad, or something, because it means no easy money for Venezuelans to back their mounting debts with. God forbid people sell cheap oil - think of the Chavista welfare state!

I never said I'm in favor of sanctions, or any sort of foreign intervention period. I'm saying that the failings of Venezuela is largely self-caused. With that in hindsight, sanctions became a marginally irrelevant factor. It's bad, sure. Not that bad to the extent that Venezuela will be saved without it. It's heading to the same direction anyway.

[Orostan]

It’s pretty clear Guiado will privatize the oil - he just hasn’t said it outright. Maduro was democratically elected, and the reason the National Assembly was suspended was because they tried to put some guys accused of fraud on an important commission and the judiciary didn’t like that. The opposition is very unpopular in Venezuela because they’ve been burning food and starting riots. The situation is a bit more complex than “MADURO BAD”.

Bolivia hasn’t been attacked by the USA yet because the US has Venezuela to attack, but they will get to Bolivia eventually. Your argument about the “hand that feeds you” seems like thinly veiled imperialist apologism.


They never made it to the moon but they beat the US in every other catagory that mattered in the long run.

Also, I quote stalin in my signature. That should make my views very clear.

No, it is quite clear Guaido laid out a detailed plan for public private partnerships and mixed market.

The opposition is so unpopular they won the last legitimate election in a landslide but okay.
Nobody is saying they are perfect. But certainly better than the Chavistas.

And no the election was fraudulent according to most democratic countries and moreover disagreements with the legislature do not mean you get to just claim dictatorial powers.
Besides as a Stalinist you never liked democracy anyways.
No wonder you support the dictatorships here.

Sure the situation is more than just Maduro being bad. But he is still bad. By any legitimate measure.

No buying oil is not imperialism. We have no obligation to buy their shitty oil.
And this is not complicated. Insulting and opposing your biggest customer might not be good business.

And the USSR lost in the category of actually surviving. The US still exists. The USSR is dead and buried.

Guiado’s plan is to give control of the oil to foreign interests, it’s very obvious he wants to privatize as much of the oil as he can get away with.

The last election for a legislature was the constituent assembly election - which the opposition refused to participate in on the orders of the USA because they knew they couldn’t win. There is no evidence of any vote rigging or manipulation at all. The “democratic countries” you believe are credible have been lying about this kind of thing for a very long time. They lied about Arbenz, they lied about Iran, they lied about Iraq, and they lied about every other country that challenged them. They will lie again. Also an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

I like legitimate democracy. I do not like imperialists pillaging the world in the name of democracy. Maduro is not an excellent leader but he is dealing with the American backed coup against him very well. He’s been able to prevent Guiado from being successful while not giving the US reason to intervene.

You keep going back to the argument that the US does not have to buy Venezuelan oil. That is true. But that does not mean the US should be able to hold oil consumption over Venezuela and demand that Venezuela allow the USA to do whatever it wants. You are attempting to justify imperialism here.

[Valrifell]

That's an awfully fucked up rationale, my guy. Wanting to save the women because they might be eye candy when they stop starving?

Take a joke.

Yes, yes, very funny.

[Novus America]

No, it is quite clear Guaido laid out a detailed plan for public private partnerships and mixed market.

The opposition is so unpopular they won the last legitimate election in a landslide but okay.
Nobody is saying they are perfect. But certainly better than the Chavistas.

And no the election was fraudulent according to most democratic countries and moreover disagreements with the legislature do not mean you get to just claim dictatorial powers.
Besides as a Stalinist you never liked democracy anyways.
No wonder you support the dictatorships here.

Sure the situation is more than just Maduro being bad. But he is still bad. By any legitimate measure.

No buying oil is not imperialism. We have no obligation to buy their shitty oil.
And this is not complicated. Insulting and opposing your biggest customer might not be good business.

And the USSR lost in the category of actually surviving. The US still exists. The USSR is dead and buried.

Guiado’s plan is to give control of the oil to foreign interests, it’s very obvious he wants to privatize as much of the oil as he can get away with.

The last election for a legislature was the constituent assembly election - which the opposition refused to participate in on the orders of the USA because they knew they couldn’t win. There is no evidence of any vote rigging or manipulation at all. The “democratic countries” you believe are credible have been lying about this kind of thing for a very long time. They lied about Arbenz, they lied about Iran, they lied about Iraq, and they lied about every other country that challenged them. They will lie again. Also an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

I like legitimate democracy. I do not like imperialists pillaging the world in the name of democracy. Maduro is not an excellent leader but he is dealing with the American backed coup against him very well. He’s been able to prevent Guiado from being successful while not giving the US reason to intervene.

You keep going back to the argument that the US does not have to buy Venezuelan oil. That is true. But that does not mean the US should be able to hold oil consumption over Venezuela and demand that Venezuela allow the USA to do whatever it wants. You are attempting to justify imperialism here.

Guaido will allow more foreign investment yes. This is not a bad thing, it is needed.
But he will not privatize all oil and those private companies will have to pay proceeds to Venezuela.

The elections for the Constituent Assembly were no by one man one vote.
It was an indirect corporatist vote were Chavista voting blocks picked the people.
That is rigged by default.

Maduro is doing very well!?
He plunged his country into a depression far worse than the Great Depression!
Infrastructure is collapsing, crime is absurdly high, GDP growth in the NEGATIVE TWO DIGITS!

If he is doing very well what is doing badly?

Imperialism. I am not sure that word means what you think it means.

And we can make our buying the oil contingent on anything we want.
It is not forcing them to do anything. They can sell the oil to someone else, or stop being so reliant on oil, or whatever they want to do with it.

[Proctopeo]

The last election for a legislature was the constituent assembly election

They said "legitimate". Not an election of party stooges into an illegal legislature of party stooges.

which the opposition refused to participate in on the orders of the USA because they knew they couldn’t win.

I'm gonna need a citation for all that. IIRC, three significant opposition parties were barred from participating in the ANC, so...
Did you know that most Venezuelans don't see the ANC as legitimate?

I like legitimate democracy.

Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies. If you did, you wouldn't support the ANC.

[Orostan]

Guiado’s plan is to give control of the oil to foreign interests, it’s very obvious he wants to privatize as much of the oil as he can get away with.

The last election for a legislature was the constituent assembly election - which the opposition refused to participate in on the orders of the USA because they knew they couldn’t win. There is no evidence of any vote rigging or manipulation at all. The “democratic countries” you believe are credible have been lying about this kind of thing for a very long time. They lied about Arbenz, they lied about Iran, they lied about Iraq, and they lied about every other country that challenged them. They will lie again. Also an appeal to authority is a logical fallacy.

I like legitimate democracy. I do not like imperialists pillaging the world in the name of democracy. Maduro is not an excellent leader but he is dealing with the American backed coup against him very well. He’s been able to prevent Guiado from being successful while not giving the US reason to intervene.

You keep going back to the argument that the US does not have to buy Venezuelan oil. That is true. But that does not mean the US should be able to hold oil consumption over Venezuela and demand that Venezuela allow the USA to do whatever it wants. You are attempting to justify imperialism here.

Guaido will allow more foreign investment yes. This is not a bad thing, it is needed.
But he will not privatize all oil and those private companies will have to pay proceeds to Venezuela.

The elections for the Constituent Assembly were no by one man one vote.
It was an indirect corporatist vote were Chavista voting blocks picked the people.
That is rigged by default.

Maduro is doing very well!?
He plunged his country into a depression far worse than the Great Depression!
Infrastructure is collapsing, crime is absurdly high, GDP growth in the NEGATIVE TWO DIGITS!

If he is doing very well what is doing badly?

Imperialism. I am not sure that word means what you think it means.

And we can make our buying the oil contingent on anything we want.
It is not forcing them to do anything. They can sell the oil to someone else, or stop being so reliant on oil, or whatever they want to do with it.

A public-private “partnership” usually means partial or total privatization.

The Assembly election was boycotted by the opposition - of course the chavistas won. Are you arguing now that the opposition rigged the election for Maduro?

Maduro didn’t cause the Venezuelan economic crisis and I described his leadership ability, not the economic problems.

I do know what imperialism means - you seem to know that as well but you continue to justify it. Why does the US have the right to interfere in Venezuelan affairs? Is it because they sell oil to the US? Does that justify everything?

The last election for a legislature was the constituent assembly election

They said "legitimate". Not an election of party stooges into an illegal legislature of party stooges.

which the opposition refused to participate in on the orders of the USA because they knew they couldn’t win.

I'm gonna need a citation for all that. IIRC, three significant opposition parties were barred from participating in the ANC, so...
Did you know that most Venezuelans don't see the ANC as legitimate?

I like legitimate democracy.

Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies. If you did, you wouldn't support the ANC.

The last election was a legitimate election.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/News/13647

The claim in here isn’t backed up by any records that I can find, but I find it highly likely that it’s true because the US did the same thing in Nicaragua. In addition to that, the USA has been rather public about sending millions to the Venezuelan opposition. The opposition parties were never barred from participating in the election - they boycotted it. Only a few politicians were barred from the election and that was because of the judiciary’s actions, not Maduro’s orders.

[Novus America]

Guaido will allow more foreign investment yes. This is not a bad thing, it is needed.
But he will not privatize all oil and those private companies will have to pay proceeds to Venezuela.

The elections for the Constituent Assembly were no by one man one vote.
It was an indirect corporatist vote were Chavista voting blocks picked the people.
That is rigged by default.

Maduro is doing very well!?
He plunged his country into a depression far worse than the Great Depression!
Infrastructure is collapsing, crime is absurdly high, GDP growth in the NEGATIVE TWO DIGITS!

If he is doing very well what is doing badly?

Imperialism. I am not sure that word means what you think it means.

And we can make our buying the oil contingent on anything we want.
It is not forcing them to do anything. They can sell the oil to someone else, or stop being so reliant on oil, or whatever they want to do with it.

A public-private “partnership” usually means partial or total privatization.

The Assembly election was boycotted by the opposition - of course the chavistas won. Are you arguing now that the opposition rigged the election for Maduro?

Maduro didn’t cause the Venezuelan economic crisis and I described his leadership ability, not the economic problems.

I do know what imperialism means - you seem to know that as well but you continue to justify it. Why does the US have the right to interfere in Venezuelan affairs? Is it because they sell oil to the US? Does that justify everything?

They said "legitimate". Not an election of party stooges into an illegal legislature of party stooges.


I'm gonna need a citation for all that. IIRC, three significant opposition parties were barred from participating in the ANC, so...
Did you know that most Venezuelans don't see the ANC as legitimate?


Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies. If you did, you wouldn't support the ANC.

The last election was a legitimate election.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/News/13647

The claim in here isn’t backed up by any records that I can find, but I find it highly likely that it’s true because the US did the same thing in Nicaragua. In addition to that, the USA has been rather public about sending millions to the Venezuelan opposition. The opposition parties were never barred from participating in the election - they boycotted it. Only a few politicians were barred from the election and that was because of the judiciary’s actions, not Maduro’s orders.

Sure there will be partial privatization, which is absolutely necessary.
Venezuela needs outside capital, technology and expertise to save its oil industry.

Again that “election” was not direct democracy with one man one vote.
It was a corporatist election, with votes done by Chavista affiliated special interest groups.

The Judiciary is a joke. It is not an independent institution. Those who are not the most extreme Chavistas have split off to form a separate judiciary.

And obviously the economic crisis is the fault of the Chavistas.
Again please explain why ONLY Venezuela has such a severe crisis?!

Even countries under more severe sanctions are doing much better.
And the collapse started long before the sanctions.

Imperialism means taking territory. All foreign influence is no necessarily imperialism.
And again we have a right to but oil from whoever we want, for whatever reason we want.
If Venezuela does not like it they do not have to sell it to us.

It is that simple. Trade conditions are not automatically imperialism.

[Gig em Aggies]

has anyone seen the story about the Black Water coming out of the taps in San Diego, Carabobo state?

https://youtu.be/4noTuHgaanw
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... d-oil.html

[LiberNovusAmericae]

has anyone seen the story about the Black Water coming out of the taps in San Diego, Carabobo state?

https://youtu.be/4noTuHgaanw
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... d-oil.html

Great. Now people are going to die of thirst too, if starvation wasn't bad enough.

[Proctopeo]

They said "legitimate". Not an election of party stooges into an illegal legislature of party stooges.


I'm gonna need a citation for all that. IIRC, three significant opposition parties were barred from participating in the ANC, so...
Did you know that most Venezuelans don't see the ANC as legitimate?


Tell me lies, tell me sweet little lies. If you did, you wouldn't support the ANC.

The last election was a legitimate election.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/News/13647

Ah yes, an opinion site whose purpose is "to provide a counter-narrative to mainstream media coverage of the Bolivarian Revolution". Color me skeptical.

The claim in here isn’t backed up by any records that I can find,

WHOOMP
THERE IT IS

but I find it highly likely that it’s true because the US did the same thing in Nicaragua.

Not comparable.

In addition to that, the USA has been rather public about sending millions to the Venezuelan opposition.

Good, they need the help.

The opposition parties were never barred from participating in the election - they boycotted it.

Their two options were boycott an illegitimate legislature, or try and participate in it... which would've had the same outcome but with the downside that it would give the ANC any semblance of legitimacy to any rational outside observer.

Only a few politicians were barred from the election and that was because of the judiciary’s actions, not Maduro’s orders.

Aight can you source that but from an actual news source this time? I'm also distrustful of the MSM but not so much that I turn to literal propaganda and lies instead.

Also, Transparency International ranked Venezuela's judiciary the most corrupt in the world, and Human Rights Watch claimed that as far back as 2012, judges may face reprisal if they rule contrary to the government's interests.

[Costa Fierro]

The last election was a legitimate election.

17-25% voter turnout. Widely boycotted.

Totally "legitimate".

https://venezuelanalysis.com/News/13647

LMAO pro-regime media.

0/10 try again.

[Gig em Aggies]

The last election was a legitimate election.

17-25% voter turnout. Widely boycotted.

Totally "legitimate".

https://venezuelanalysis.com/News/13647

LMAO pro-regime media.

0/10 try again.

I feel like if Maduro doesn't step down soon he might have a civil war on his hands with no food, clean water, power, medical care, money, jobs, etc the people might revolt as would the members of the military who aren't in Maduro's pockets. So how close do you think before the powder keg is lit?

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

17-25% voter turnout. Widely boycotted.

Totally "legitimate".



LMAO pro-regime media.

0/10 try again.

I feel like if Maduro doesn't step down soon he might have a civil war on his hands with no food, clean water, power, medical care, money, jobs, etc the people might revolt as would the members of the military who aren't in Maduro's pockets. So how close do you think before the powder keg is lit?

lol, excellent question and hard to answer, we cant give up now, by we I mean the western style multi political party nations.

President Guaidó has declared no more oil for Cuba and has asked the international community of democratic nations to help make it so, John Bolton has tweeted:

"The Venezuelan National Assembly has decreed the suspension of crude exports to Cuba following the collapse of the national electrical grid. Insurance companies and flag carriers that facilitate these give-away shipments to Cuba are now on notice."

The eternal democratic revolution of Cuba will not take this lightly, all hell will break loose in Venezuela if oil shipments to Cuba are affected.

[Costa Fierro]

I feel like if Maduro doesn't step down soon he might have a civil war on his hands with no food, clean water, power, medical care, money, jobs, etc the people might revolt as would the members of the military who aren't in Maduro's pockets. So how close do you think before the powder keg is lit?

The people have already been revolting for the last five years. The main issue is that protesters and protest movements have had absolutely nothing to fight back with against a state that has all the proverbial sticks. Only recently have we seen things escalate to where an opposition figure does more than simply appear every so often at political rallies. And one which has the overt political support of numerous world leaders.

But as for a powder keg, Venezuela is already seeing violence on a scale of warfare so for them, it makes no sense given hundreds of people die in wanton violence every single day.

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

I feel like if Maduro doesn't step down soon he might have a civil war on his hands with no food, clean water, power, medical care, money, jobs, etc the people might revolt as would the members of the military who aren't in Maduro's pockets. So how close do you think before the powder keg is lit?

The people have already been revolting for the last five years. The main issue is that protesters and protest movements have had absolutely nothing to fight back with against a state that has all the proverbial sticks. Only recently have we seen things escalate to where an opposition figure does more than simply appear every so often at political rallies. And one which has the overt political support of numerous world leaders.

But as for a powder keg, Venezuela is already seeing violence on a scale of warfare so for them, it makes no sense given hundreds of people die in wanton violence every single day.

Good answer Costa Fierro.

[Bear Stearns]

I have no real interest in a military intervention, but instead just letting things run their natural course and then picking up the pieces in the inevitable aftermath. One thing I would do is extend Visas to Venezuelan women and children, however.

You want to let more socialist single mothers into this country?

It is very naive to believe that they will be anti-communist American patriots when they arrive here when every other Latin American immigrant group who has fled similarly shitty regimes has been just another group of Democrats.

The notable exception is the Cuban exiles, but even their descendants today mostly vote Democrat.

[Darussalam]

I have no real interest in a military intervention, but instead just letting things run their natural course and then picking up the pieces in the inevitable aftermath. One thing I would do is extend Visas to Venezuelan women and children, however.

You want to let more socialist single mothers into this country?

It is very naive to believe that they will be anti-communist American patriots when they arrive here when every other Latin American immigrant group who has fled similarly shitty regimes has been just another group of Democrats.

The notable exception is the Cuban exiles, but even their descendants today mostly vote Democrat.

Democrats and Republicans don't differ much in their voter base. It's not as if Republican voters are mostly ardent capitalist and Democrat voters are mostly virulent communists. In fact I won't be surprised that support for policies like free trade are greater among the latter than the former.

But as the matter of fact Democrats are the ruling party, while GOP is a joke of an opposition even when they're actually in power. Certain immigrant groups recognized this and voted accordingly, because you wouldn't want to be on the losing side of the race war.

[Wallenburg]

But as the matter of fact Democrats are the ruling party, while GOP is a joke of an opposition even when they're actually in power. Certain immigrant groups recognized this and voted accordingly, because you wouldn't want to be on the losing side of the race war.

I think you got these two mixed up, my dude.

[Orostan]

A public-private “partnership” usually means partial or total privatization.

The Assembly election was boycotted by the opposition - of course the chavistas won. Are you arguing now that the opposition rigged the election for Maduro?

Maduro didn’t cause the Venezuelan economic crisis and I described his leadership ability, not the economic problems.

I do know what imperialism means - you seem to know that as well but you continue to justify it. Why does the US have the right to interfere in Venezuelan affairs? Is it because they sell oil to the US? Does that justify everything?


The last election was a legitimate election.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/News/13647

The claim in here isn’t backed up by any records that I can find, but I find it highly likely that it’s true because the US did the same thing in Nicaragua. In addition to that, the USA has been rather public about sending millions to the Venezuelan opposition. The opposition parties were never barred from participating in the election - they boycotted it. Only a few politicians were barred from the election and that was because of the judiciary’s actions, not Maduro’s orders.

Sure there will be partial privatization, which is absolutely necessary.
Venezuela needs outside capital, technology and expertise to save its oil industry.

Again that “election” was not direct democracy with one man one vote.
It was a corporatist election, with votes done by Chavista affiliated special interest groups.

The Judiciary is a joke. It is not an independent institution. Those who are not the most extreme Chavistas have split off to form a separate judiciary.

And obviously the economic crisis is the fault of the Chavistas.
Again please explain why ONLY Venezuela has such a severe crisis?!

Even countries under more severe sanctions are doing much better.
And the collapse started long before the sanctions.

Imperialism means taking territory. All foreign influence is no necessarily imperialism.
And again we have a right to but oil from whoever we want, for whatever reason we want.
If Venezuela does not like it they do not have to sell it to us.

It is that simple. Trade conditions are not automatically imperialism.

They don’t need to privatize to get equipment and foreign experience. They can pay some oil company to train their workers. There is absolutely no evidence that Maduro rigged anything. All the evidence we have suggests it was a free and fair election. The crisis in Venezuela is so bad because of several factors, one of which being foreign and domestic economic war on the government and another being that the drop in oil prices came at a bad time for Venezuela. It’s not so simple as “CHAVISTAS BAD USA GOOD”.

Imperialism means using force to economically exploit another country. Are you arguing that Venezuela must do whatever the US commands or face poverty?

The last election was a legitimate election.

17-25% voter turnout. Widely boycotted.

Totally "legitimate".

https://venezuelanalysis.com/News/13647

LMAO pro-regime media.

0/10 try again.

>waaaah the people won’t vote for the neoliberals waaaah

The opposition boycotted it because they could not win. They requested the UN not observe the elections because they knew they were legitimate.

Also, address my argument. Attacking my source for being pro-Maduro isn’t an argument.

The last election was a legitimate election.

https://venezuelanalysis.com/News/13647

Ah yes, an opinion site whose purpose is "to provide a counter-narrative to mainstream media coverage of the Bolivarian Revolution". Color me skeptical.

The claim in here isn’t backed up by any records that I can find,

WHOOMP
THERE IT IS

but I find it highly likely that it’s true because the US did the same thing in Nicaragua.

Not comparable.

In addition to that, the USA has been rather public about sending millions to the Venezuelan opposition.

Good, they need the help.

The opposition parties were never barred from participating in the election - they boycotted it.

Their two options were boycott an illegitimate legislature, or try and participate in it... which would've had the same outcome but with the downside that it would give the ANC any semblance of legitimacy to any rational outside observer.

Only a few politicians were barred from the election and that was because of the judiciary’s actions, not Maduro’s orders.

Aight can you source that but from an actual news source this time? I'm also distrustful of the MSM but not so much that I turn to literal propaganda and lies instead.

Also, Transparency International ranked Venezuela's judiciary the most corrupt in the world, and Human Rights Watch claimed that as far back as 2012, judges may face reprisal if they rule contrary to the government's interests.

1) “anything I don’t like is opinion”

2-3) It’s completely comparable! It’s the same thing!

4) “democracy is when the USA installs a puppet government.”

5) https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/worl ... ycott.html

Here’s an article from the NY “execute strikers” Times. Don’t like the paper but I suppose this is as western a source as you could want.

[Novus America]

Sure there will be partial privatization, which is absolutely necessary.
Venezuela needs outside capital, technology and expertise to save its oil industry.

Again that “election” was not direct democracy with one man one vote.
It was a corporatist election, with votes done by Chavista affiliated special interest groups.

The Judiciary is a joke. It is not an independent institution. Those who are not the most extreme Chavistas have split off to form a separate judiciary.

And obviously the economic crisis is the fault of the Chavistas.
Again please explain why ONLY Venezuela has such a severe crisis?!

Even countries under more severe sanctions are doing much better.
And the collapse started long before the sanctions.

Imperialism means taking territory. All foreign influence is no necessarily imperialism.
And again we have a right to but oil from whoever we want, for whatever reason we want.
If Venezuela does not like it they do not have to sell it to us.

It is that simple. Trade conditions are not automatically imperialism.

They don’t need to privatize to get equipment and foreign experience. They can pay some oil company to train their workers. There is absolutely no evidence that Maduro rigged anything. All the evidence we have suggests it was a free and fair election. The crisis in Venezuela is so bad because of several factors, one of which being foreign and domestic economic war on the government and another being that the drop in oil prices came at a bad time for Venezuela. It’s not so simple as “CHAVISTAS BAD USA GOOD”.

Imperialism means using force to economically exploit another country. Are you arguing that Venezuela must do whatever the US commands or face poverty?

17-25% voter turnout. Widely boycotted.

Totally "legitimate".



LMAO pro-regime media.

0/10 try again.

>waaaah the people won’t vote for the neoliberals waaaah

The opposition boycotted it because they could not win. They requested the UN not observe the elections because they knew they were legitimate.

Also, address my argument. Attacking my source for being pro-Maduro isn’t an argument.

Ah yes, an opinion site whose purpose is "to provide a counter-narrative to mainstream media coverage of the Bolivarian Revolution". Color me skeptical.


WHOOMP
THERE IT IS


Not comparable.


Good, they need the help.


Their two options were boycott an illegitimate legislature, or try and participate in it... which would've had the same outcome but with the downside that it would give the ANC any semblance of legitimacy to any rational outside observer.


Aight can you source that but from an actual news source this time? I'm also distrustful of the MSM but not so much that I turn to literal propaganda and lies instead.

Also, Transparency International ranked Venezuela's judiciary the most corrupt in the world, and Human Rights Watch claimed that as far back as 2012, judges may face reprisal if they rule contrary to the government's interests.

1) “anything I don’t like is opinion”

2-3) It’s completely comparable! It’s the same thing!

4) “democracy is when the USA installs a puppet government.”

5) https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/21/worl ... ycott.html

Here’s an article from the NY “execute strikers” Times. Don’t like the paper but I suppose this is as western a source as you could want.

A minor change is not going to fix Venezuela’s destroyed oil industry.

And you are not even addressing the key points.

Again address the electoral system for the “Constituent Assembly”, how it was NOT aone man one vote direct election but was indirectly elected via certain special interest groups.
And 75+% of the voters boycotted. So by saying only the opposition boycotted you admit the opposition is 75% of the voters!

Address why ONLY Venezuela has the same degree of economic problems!
Please stop avoiding this.

The oil price drop was the same for all petro states!
So why only Venezuela is in such a mess?

Russia, a petro state also under minor sanctions did not get hit nearly as badly and the economy started growing again, although slowly after oil prices recovered!

Oil prices are higher now then they were! Yet Venezuela saw no recovery!
Venezuela’s oil production was collapsing when oil prices were at their highest and long before any sanctions!

Not only do you have no casualty, you have no correlation to support your claims!

And oil prices are again never an excuse. If you fail to account for them being cyclical that is on you for a lack of preparation.

Oil prices do go up and down. Which is why successful petro states have to practice financial responsibility. Something the Chavistas never did.

This is not a simple as Chavistas bad USA good. But the Chavistas are still bad.

[Costa Fierro]

>waaaah the people won’t vote for the neoliberals waaaah

Or because Venezuelans have little faith in an electoral system abused by the incumbent president? After all, when polling indicates that 72% of the population doesn't trust the electoral authority, the idea that it wasn't a legitimate election purely because the wrong candidate wasn't elected is farcical. Furthermore, 65% of those polled believed Falcón was collaborating with Maduro.

So it's more Venezuelans generally lack faith in the electoral system, and they can hardly be blamed.

The opposition boycotted it because they could not win.

The opposition boycotted because most of their leaders were either incarcerated, under house arrest, hiding in foreign embassies or in exile. Turns out when you start to persecute the political opposition it makes it difficult for said opposition to stand candidates.

Furthermore, polls indicated that even without more popular opposition figures standing for election, Falcón still was leading the polls. Furthermore, the MUD, which coincidentally was banned from running, was also leading the PSUV in every single poll conducted bar one.

They requested the UN not observe the elections because they knew they were legitimate.

Not quite true. Let's see what they actually said:

Venezuela’s opposition alliance called on the United Nations on Monday not to send observers to the presidential election on May 20 to avoid legitimizing a poll it says is rigged in favor of Socialist President Nicolas Maduro.

They asked the UN not to legitimise the election because they knew it was rigged. That's a bit of mental gymnastics to try and bend that to saying they approved of it when all their best known candidates were imprisoned or barred from running for office.

Also, address my argument. Attacking my source for being pro-Maduro isn’t an argument.

I did. Venezuela Analysis supports the Maduro regime. Ergo, by extension it cannot be trusted as being an impartial source.