La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[Orostan]

A socdem who wants to privatize all the oil for some normal and completely non-suspicious reason. Get real, the coup group is no socdem party.


So, you're an unironic imperialist? Do you, or do you not, believe the US should continue to exploit Latin America and has the right to do so?

Theoretically, it is not a problem if they become part of the US and the Latin Americans get all the rights and privileges US citizens have. Not counting on that, however, given the problems the US has with the bunch that's already living there.

hahahahahahaha

That will never happen. Latin America has been the favorite domain of American business for over a hundred years now, they won't allow anything even close to that.

[Orostan]

A socdem who wants to privatize all the oil for some normal and completely non-suspicious reason. Get real, the coup group is no socdem party.


So, you're an unironic imperialist? Do you, or do you not, believe the US should continue to exploit Latin America and has the right to do so?

I do not believe in exploitation, I believe in cooperation and unity.

I’m certainly not the President of the United States, however.

So, you believe the US should be sending any aid to Venezuela through the UN and should not be placing sanctions on the country, limiting its access to foreign imports which include medicine?

[Costa Fierro]

I mean the US Petrodollar. As in, selling your oil in US dollars vs Yuan or rubles.

So doing business as usual then.

The Chinese are not the ones currently destroying a Latin American country, I believe Mr. Abrams or Mr. Bolton might be better people to ask than a billion Chinese.

And the United States isn't destroying a Latin American country either. The United States also doesn't hold $23 billion in debt from Venezuela nor a controlling interest in its oil fields.

[Orostan]

I mean the US Petrodollar. As in, selling your oil in US dollars vs Yuan or rubles.

So doing business as usual then.

The Chinese are not the ones currently destroying a Latin American country, I believe Mr. Abrams or Mr. Bolton might be better people to ask than a billion Chinese.

And the United States isn't destroying a Latin American country either. The United States also doesn't hold $23 billion in debt from Venezuela nor a controlling interest in its oil fields.

The US is literally trying to start a civil war or coup a government to gain access to oil reserves, and you have the idea that the US is doing nothing wrong? Do I have to list every US military intervention in Latin America to you?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I do not believe in exploitation, I believe in cooperation and unity.

I’m certainly not the President of the United States, however.

So, you believe the US should be sending any aid to Venezuela through the UN and should not be placing sanctions on the country, limiting its access to foreign imports which include medicine?

Aid to anybody that isn’t Maduro and his cronies, but considering that he is actively preventing aid from reaching his own citizens, I think his immediate removal would make rebuilding Venezuela much easier.

[Orostan]

So, you believe the US should be sending any aid to Venezuela through the UN and should not be placing sanctions on the country, limiting its access to foreign imports which include medicine?

Aid to anybody that isn’t Maduro and his cronies, but considering that he is actively preventing aid from reaching his own citizens, I think his immediate removal would make rebuilding Venezuela much easier.

So, you believe the US has a right to overthrow the government of another country and take its oil? Only a very naive person would believe that Elliot Abrams of all people is only sending humanitarian aid.

Also, Maduro accepts aid from the UN and Red Cross. That's hardly preventing any aid from reaching citizens.

[Costa Fierro]

Bollocks mate. If this was a genuine aid mission, it'd be run through far more legitimate channels than currently used.

So where have the "genuine" aid charities been on this? They've been remarkably silent about the widespread food shortages. The Red Cross especially, seeing as it's only focusing on medical aid rather than bringing food in to the people that need it. Seems a bit usual that so many people are potentially facing starvation and yet not a peep from the people that usually ply our televisions with starving Africans, don't you think?

It's also perfectly reasonable to refuse to let aid into your country when the person responsible has previously used humanitatian aid as a pretext for smuggling arms to terrorists. It doesn't matter if those weapons could have been gotten into the country via another route.

It does matter. It goes from a genuine national security issue into paranoid rambling because you believe the aid is filled with weapons. It's not a legitimate position to take if you genuinely care about your citizens and not your continued grafting from state companies and institutions.

I'm not a fan of Maduro, but there is no way in hell the US has some sort of moral authority to act as a facilitator for positive change in Latin America.

And yet, it is. By offering aid, and Maduro's refusal on the basis there might be guns inside, the United States can play the card of being the moral facilitator against an unstable madman inside a country that is collapsing politically and socially.

Turns out it's very easy to play someone whose life has been spent driving buses in Caracas than in politics.

[Cedoria]

^ no, this is not a military topic, it is a political topic. the only thing is regime wishes to use hungry people to 'throw' them in neighbour countries, as a menace.

analogy is with either Assad in Sirya, Gheddafi in Lybia (with immigrants), they would use what they think as 'human meat' to throw people unfeed to you if you don t 'aid' their regime.

The results of the interventions in both places should prove my point about why the US should stay home on this one.

[The Archregimancy]

Does anyone else think the VZ military's effort to keep aid out will be a catalyst for war? All those people massed at the border, there's going to be some conflict.

It wouldn't be the most bizarre pretext for war in this hemisphere.

<Puts on historical monocle>

While the 'War of Jenkins' Ear' is tangentially germane to the thread, in that it partially pertains to the Anglosphere's attempts to engage economically with what's now Venezuela, and involved two separate British attacks on La Guaira (now the location of the main port and airport for Caracas), the name of the conflict is a retrospective misnomer, and was not the primary casus belli.

The 1739-1748 conflict between Spain and Great Britain was one of the precursors of, and was subsequently absorbed by, the War of Spanish Succession (much like, in the 20th century, the conflict between Japan and China predated the Second World War, but was then absorbed by the latter).

The direct cause of the war was British and Spanish disagreements over trade, specifically British access to Spanish colonial markets - as granted by the Treaty of Utrecht (1713) - and the Spanish 'visitation rights' to undertake inspections of British ships trading with the Spanish Empire - as granted by the Treaty of Seville (1729). Britain sent troops to Gibraltar and its West Indian colonies as a show of strength to express its disapproval of what it saw as Spanish abuse of the visitation rights. Spain retaliated by cancelling British trade access and impounding all British ships in Spanish harbours. Britain then declared war.

Robert Jenkins was only one of several captains whose ship was boarded by the Spanish in the lead-up to the war, and who was then asked to testify before Parliament. His ear was cut off by by the captain of a Spanish ship who accused Jenkins of smuggling, but this incident happened in 1731 - a full seven years before war was declared - so there's no reason to believe that it was the immediate catalyst for the war; and the story that Jenkins displayed his ear to Parliament has to be seriously doubted given the elapsed time from the original incident and the lack of any official record confirming as much.

The name 'War of Jenkins' Ear' was only given to the conflict by the Victorian historian Thomas Carlyle over a century afterwards. Carlyle seems to have been engaging in some dramatic licence, but the name - and the misunderstanding over the cause of the conflict - stuck.


If you really want to look for a bizarre immediate casus belli in modern Latin America, might I perhaps suggest the 1969 Soccer War between El Salvador and Honduras?

[Special Aromas]

Half the US drug problems are self-inflicted as a consequence of idiotic social policy.


Keeping drugs out of the hands of organised crime gangs is best done through a legal and regulated market with consumer protections enforced by the state. If that's your objection here, you needn't go chasing ghosts in Latin America to resolve the drug crisis. Reform of your own domestic policies will cut down on the problem far more severely and effectively, especially if you couple it with not jailing addicts.


But in any case, the drug allegations, which are unproven, are minor enough that they don't even begin to mount a case for an attack on a sovereign nation.

I never said we should invade, let alone solely because of the drug trafficking.

To be fair, nobody is calling for an invasion most especially not Guaido. This is merely another example of an unpopular president using America as an excuse for his shitty regime.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

So how many Venezuelan migrants are you in the US willing to take?

Do you want migrants? Because this is how you get migrants.

[Uxupox]

Wait are people saying that the United States is planning a “takeover” of Venezuelan oil? On what basis is this? Have they ignored the past two decades unto where the United States under the direction of Bush, Obama and Trump is a net exporter of refined oil products.

[Diarcesia]

Wait are people saying that the United States is planning a “takeover” of Venezuelan oil? On what basis is this? Have they ignored the past two decades unto where the United States under the direction of Bush, Obama and Trump is a net exporter of refined oil products.

Said past two decades also include the Iraq War, so...

[Uxupox]

Wait are people saying that the United States is planning a “takeover” of Venezuelan oil? On what basis is this? Have they ignored the past two decades unto where the United States under the direction of Bush, Obama and Trump is a net exporter of refined oil products.

Said past two decades also include the Iraq War, so...

The United States must be a Chinese puppet then since the only ones who profited and in retrospect were allowed to both procure and refine the crude oil where the Chinese public corporations allowed by the Iraqi governing council and the Iraqi representative council.

[Kavagrad]

Wait are people saying that the United States is planning a “takeover” of Venezuelan oil? On what basis is this? Have they ignored the past two decades unto where the United States under the direction of Bush, Obama and Trump is a net exporter of refined oil products.

The current POTUS wants the military to be used to make money from oil. Pretty sound basis to me.

[Uxupox]

Wait are people saying that the United States is planning a “takeover” of Venezuelan oil? On what basis is this? Have they ignored the past two decades unto where the United States under the direction of Bush, Obama and Trump is a net exporter of refined oil products.

The current POTUS wants the military to be used to make money from oil. Pretty sound basis to me.

I wish the United States did, then at least their opponents would be correct in their assessment of “war for energy”.

[East Gondwana]

Whilst I have no sympathies whatsoever for Maduro or his sham of a government, I am also against US intervention. Even if America's intentions were genuine and pure (which is laughable), their own track record should really preclude them from being considered a credible source of help in such a crisis.

That being said, one cannot deny that the people of Venezuela desperately need help, and pretty much noone has legitimate democratic mandate at this point.

The tl;dr of this situation is that noone gets to claim the moral high ground.

now let's see if i've managed to piss off everyone with my Hot Take

[Diarcesia]

Whilst I have no sympathies whatsoever for Maduro or his sham of a government, I am also against US intervention. Even if America's intentions were genuine and pure (which is laughable), their own track record should really preclude them from being considered a credible source of help in such a crisis.

That being said, one cannot deny that the people of Venezuela desperately need help, and pretty much noone has legitimate democratic mandate at this point.

The tl;dr of this situation is that noone gets to claim the moral high ground.

now let's see if i've managed to piss off everyone with my Hot Take

That's it, I'm reporting you to the mods for flamebait.

/s

[Sicaris]

The Venezualan government might be concerned that the 'aid' contains weapons, mines and explosives. They'd have fair cause. Eliot Abrams - current US envoy to Venezuala has form when it comes to using aid as a cover for smuggling weapons to Contras in Nicaragua.

They might also be wondering why more usual pathways of delivering aid aren't being used. The UN aren't involved and The Red Cross for instance has had to ask people to stop painting trucks of 'aid' to Venezuala as red cross trucks.

Let's not pretend this is as simple as 'Maduro is a baddie!' Huh? The US has form when it comes to committing the occasional massive breech of international law to interfere in Latin American countries. There's no reason to suspect they've made any massive changes to their policies in that regard.

This isn’t the 1980s. We have G.E. Donald J. Trump; not Lord Reagan, god of all in the universe.

[Orostan]

The Venezualan government might be concerned that the 'aid' contains weapons, mines and explosives. They'd have fair cause. Eliot Abrams - current US envoy to Venezuala has form when it comes to using aid as a cover for smuggling weapons to Contras in Nicaragua.

They might also be wondering why more usual pathways of delivering aid aren't being used. The UN aren't involved and The Red Cross for instance has had to ask people to stop painting trucks of 'aid' to Venezuala as red cross trucks.

Let's not pretend this is as simple as 'Maduro is a baddie!' Huh? The US has form when it comes to committing the occasional massive breech of international law to interfere in Latin American countries. There's no reason to suspect they've made any massive changes to their policies in that regard.

This isn’t the 1980s. We have G.E. Donald J. Trump; not Lord Reagan, god of all in the universe.

We have a guy from the 1980s who sent weapons to Nicaragua in humanitarian aid aircraft in charge of aid to venezuela.

[Risottia]

The Venezualan government might be concerned that the 'aid' contains weapons, mines and explosives. They'd have fair cause. Eliot Abrams - current US envoy to Venezuala has form when it comes to using aid as a cover for smuggling weapons to Contras in Nicaragua.

They might also be wondering why more usual pathways of delivering aid aren't being used. The UN aren't involved and The Red Cross for instance has had to ask people to stop painting trucks of 'aid' to Venezuala as red cross trucks.

Let's not pretend this is as simple as 'Maduro is a baddie!' Huh? The US has form when it comes to committing the occasional massive breech of international law to interfere in Latin American countries. There's no reason to suspect they've made any massive changes to their policies in that regard.

Maduro is a jackass in the pockets of Russia AND I see no reason to believe that Guaido isn't a jackass in the pockets of America.

[Risottia]

Wait are people saying that the United States is planning a “takeover” of Venezuelan oil? On what basis is this? Have they ignored the past two decades unto where the United States under the direction of Bush, Obama and Trump is a net exporter of refined oil products.

Crude goes in, refined goes out.

[Uxupox]

Wait are people saying that the United States is planning a “takeover” of Venezuelan oil? On what basis is this? Have they ignored the past two decades unto where the United States under the direction of Bush, Obama and Trump is a net exporter of refined oil products.

Crude goes in, refined goes out.

The United States is also a net exporter of crude oil.

[Novus America]

Wait are people saying that the United States is planning a “takeover” of Venezuelan oil? On what basis is this? Have they ignored the past two decades unto where the United States under the direction of Bush, Obama and Trump is a net exporter of refined oil products.

Crude goes in, refined goes out.

Not exactly. Sure we do refine crude we import.
But we are also the worlds largest crude producer as well.
We export some crude to, and produce most of our own crude.

[G-Tech Corporation]

This isn’t the 1980s. We have G.E. Donald J. Trump; not Lord Reagan, god of all in the universe.

We have a guy from the 1980s who sent weapons to Nicaragua in humanitarian aid aircraft in charge of aid to venezuela.

Yknow, there's a funny argument I've never seen answered: why not just search the aid trucks?

There certainly aren't so many of them that searching them is impossible. And if Maduro is genuinely concerned about weapons shipments, but wants the food and medicine, why not just actually look in said aid to ensure it is, yknow, aid?

Riddle me that, and maybe I'll start considering reasons why refusing humanitarian aid can be considered a legitimate and rational action for a nation-state where, objectively, the standards of living have dropped so considerably that millions of refugees have been generated.