La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[SD_Film Artists]

An unstable Venezuela is still bad for America even if it's not a full-scale military threat. For example drug traffickers are increasingly taking advantage of the political situation there as a base to go into the Caribbean and onwards to America. Plus there's the migrants who will make it to America despite not sharing a land boarder.
America has been invited by the closest thing that Venezuela has to a democratic leader. And even if it wasn't, the term "Imperialism" is so overused and lost in hypocrisy nowadays that it's basically lost all meaning. I don't know many Venezuelans, but I suspect that they care more about ending the hyper-inflation and other dire socio-economic issues rather than getting worried about "billionaire Tycoons".

Guaidó is not the closest thing Venezuela has to a democratic leader, he's just some random guy who America likes because he serve their interests.

Some random guy who is also the President of the National Assembly and in light of failed/denied elections has worked in accordance with Venezuela's constitution to be interim President of Venezuela.

What you are advocating is the literal definition of imperialism.

Again it's difficult to be moved by that since the term has been so used & abused, especially considering that many of the self-proclaimed anti-Imperialists I've known are actually some of the worst offenders of supporting imperialism.

I'm fairly certain that most Venezuelans don't want their country invaded and their natural resources stolen to serve some rich people in another country.

I'm fairly certain that most Venezuelans don't want their country abused by a dictatorship and their natural resources stolen to serve some rich people in their own country.

[Cedoria]

Might I just add that all this is allgeded therefore there's no real evidence. America has also been alleged to have committed drug trafficking, does this mean we should topple the US government? I also love how you didn't address my other points.

There is more than just allegations. To members of the First Lady’s family have been convicted.

I am not advocating we invade, however it is clear we have reasons to care about the situation in Venezuela.
Colombia, one of our closest allies is facing serious issues, including a massive refugee crisis.
Cuba, China and Russia are involved as well.

Guaido is not some random dude, he is the leaders of the democraticly elected legislative that the Maduro regime has illegally stripped of power.

So while I am not saying we should invade, we do have reasons to be working with our allies to put pressure on the regime.

Half the US drug problems are self-inflicted as a consequence of idiotic social policy.


Keeping drugs out of the hands of organised crime gangs is best done through a legal and regulated market with consumer protections enforced by the state. If that's your objection here, you needn't go chasing ghosts in Latin America to resolve the drug crisis. Reform of your own domestic policies will cut down on the problem far more severely and effectively, especially if you couple it with not jailing addicts.


But in any case, the drug allegations, which are unproven, are minor enough that they don't even begin to mount a case for an attack on a sovereign nation.

[Yusseria]

Jorge Ramos and his team were detained by Maduro while they were doing an interview with him. Apparently Maduro didn't like the questions they were asking lol classic socialist dictator.

[Novus America]

There is more than just allegations. To members of the First Lady’s family have been convicted.

I am not advocating we invade, however it is clear we have reasons to care about the situation in Venezuela.
Colombia, one of our closest allies is facing serious issues, including a massive refugee crisis.
Cuba, China and Russia are involved as well.

Guaido is not some random dude, he is the leaders of the democraticly elected legislative that the Maduro regime has illegally stripped of power.

So while I am not saying we should invade, we do have reasons to be working with our allies to put pressure on the regime.

Half the US drug problems are self-inflicted as a consequence of idiotic social policy.


Keeping drugs out of the hands of organised crime gangs is best done through a legal and regulated market with consumer protections enforced by the state. If that's your objection here, you needn't go chasing ghosts in Latin America to resolve the drug crisis. Reform of your own domestic policies will cut down on the problem far more severely and effectively, especially if you couple it with not jailing addicts.


But in any case, the drug allegations, which are unproven, are minor enough that they don't even begin to mount a case for an attack on a sovereign nation.

I never said we should invade, let alone solely because of the drug trafficking.

[US-SSR]

Does anyone else think the VZ military's effort to keep aid out will be a catalyst for war? All those people massed at the border, there's going to be some conflict.

It wouldn't be the most bizarre pretext for war in this hemisphere. That being said, rocks and Molotov cocktails on one side vs. guns and tear gas on the other makes for short and one-sided battles. And despite the "all options on the table" talk and such I don't see war breaking out. For one thing the US does not have the resources in the region for any kind of invasion and occupation on the scale of Panama 1989; for instance it has no bases in country...

The main aim of the Guaido faction with this aid delivery business seems to be to force the security forces to choose between going over to their side or firing on their fellow Venezuelans. There have been a few defections, a Major, couple sergeants and a few dozen national guardsmen, but so far no mass movement.

So the Lima Group meeting earlier today in Bogota looks to be doubling down on bringing economic and diplomatic pressure to bear. Four state governors have been added to the sanctions list. It's probably going to get harder and harder for the Maduro regime to juice the people it needs to juice. We'll see.

[Rezmaeristan]

Does anyone else think the VZ military's effort to keep aid out will be a catalyst for war? All those people massed at the border, there's going to be some conflict.

It wouldn't be the most bizarre pretext for war in this hemisphere. That being said, rocks and Molotov cocktails on one side vs. guns and tear gas on the other makes for short and one-sided battles. And despite the "all options on the table" talk and such I don't see war breaking out. For one thing the US does not have the resources in the region for any kind of invasion and occupation on the scale of Panama 1989; for instance it has no bases in country...

The main aim of the Guaido faction with this aid delivery business seems to be to force the security forces to choose between going over to their side or firing on their fellow Venezuelans. There have been a few defections, a Major, couple sergeants and a few dozen national guardsmen, but so far no mass movement.

So the Lima Group meeting earlier today in Bogota looks to be doubling down on bringing economic and diplomatic pressure to bear. Four state governors have been added to the sanctions list. It's probably going to get harder and harder for the Maduro regime to juice the people it needs to juice. We'll see.

Could Colombia or Brazil possibly get drawn in by such border riots?

[US-SSR]

It wouldn't be the most bizarre pretext for war in this hemisphere. That being said, rocks and Molotov cocktails on one side vs. guns and tear gas on the other makes for short and one-sided battles. And despite the "all options on the table" talk and such I don't see war breaking out. For one thing the US does not have the resources in the region for any kind of invasion and occupation on the scale of Panama 1989; for instance it has no bases in country...

The main aim of the Guaido faction with this aid delivery business seems to be to force the security forces to choose between going over to their side or firing on their fellow Venezuelans. There have been a few defections, a Major, couple sergeants and a few dozen national guardsmen, but so far no mass movement.

So the Lima Group meeting earlier today in Bogota looks to be doubling down on bringing economic and diplomatic pressure to bear. Four state governors have been added to the sanctions list. It's probably going to get harder and harder for the Maduro regime to juice the people it needs to juice. We'll see.

Could Colombia or Brazil possibly get drawn in by such border riots?

Both have newly-elected right-wing-ish presidents; but without any particular claim to inside information I don't sense any eagerness from either to get involved in an actual shooting war with Venezuela. Other than maybe a few stray buckshot there doesn't seem to have been any cross-border shooting, it's been mostly security forces vs. opposition crowds on the Venezuelan side, and other than slightly higher border traffic no significant changes afaik. I'd have to say the odds of some kind of accidental incident on the border leading to a wider confict would be pretty low. Gracias a Dios...

[Nantoraka]

Since I didn't see a thread on this before...

A few days ago, in a legendarily head-scratching moment, President (?) Maduro of Venezuela threatened military force to prevent US aid in the form of food and medicine to get to the Venezuelan people.

https://www.npr.org/2019/02/17/69559354 ... s-food-aid

"Now to Venezuela and a showdown over hundreds of tons of U.S. food aid that's parked in neighboring Colombia waiting for distribution. The opposition leader, Juan Guaido, is calling on his army of volunteers to bring the food and medicine into the country. President Nicolas Maduro vows to use the military to block the aid, which he calls a pretext for a U.S. invasion. NPR's Eyder Peralta is with us now from the capital, Caracas."

Apparently, he's making good on this threat. According to Puerto Rico's government, the Venezuelan Navy threatened to open fire on a US-financed aid ship.

"A Venezuelan Navy vessel threatened to "open fire" on a ship carrying humanitarian aid that was dispatched and financed by Puerto Rico's government, according to the island's governor.


In a statement Saturday night, Gov. Ricardo Rosselló said he instructed the ship, which departed the island Wednesday and had six American citizens on board, to leave the area where it was reportedly threatened by embattled President Nicolás Maduro's navy to ensure the crew's safety."

In my own opinion, if he ever thought or wanted to keep his spot in the first place, this was a really, really stupid move. Actively challenging the US Navy and taking active measures to prevent aid from getting to his own people is about the final nail in the coffin for Maduro.

So NSG, will this escalate into something a lot more serious than a few disputes along shipping routes, or is it simply just Maduro blowing off hot air?

EDIT:
So it seems I missed this important point. Maduro is saying that the aid his citizens desperately need is a ploy by the USA to invade Venezuela. According to him, he also says that that the USA only wants Venezuela's oil and went as far to label Trump's presidency as an "extremist Ku Klux Klan government".

"Embattled Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro accused the U.S. government of trying to fabricate a crisis to start a war in South America in his first interview with an American television network in years.

"Everything that the United States government has done has been doomed to failure," Maduro told ABC News' Tom Llamas in Spanish from the presidential palace in Caracas. "They are trying to fabricate a crisis to justify political escalation and a military intervention in Venezuela to bring a war to South America."

"Maduro said that the meeting in Bogota was "part of the politics to attempt to establish a parallel government in Venezuela." He added that the U.S. "wants Venezuela's oil" and is "willing to go to war for that oil."

"The extremist Ku Klux Klan government that Donald Trump directs wants a war over oil, and more than just oil," he said, describing Venezuela as a "pacifist, humble nation."

Asked if he had a message for Trump, Maduro said he needs to "fix your policy over Venezuela."

cute

[Diarcesia]

With the opinion not on his side, this is the last thing in the list of things he can do. Utterly stupid.

[Dresderstan]

This is pretty appalling to a lot of people, and really shows that he is willing to allow the country to descend further into anarchy, violence and flagrant human right abuses just to keep his own power. I can definitely see this escalate into potential military intervention by the U.S. and other Latin American allies again Maduro.

[Deutschess Kaiserreich]

"Oh no! Let's shoot the people that are trying to help us just cause the opposition leader likes them! Clearly, that is the right and sensible thing to do!"

Honestly, I just hope that the army doesn't listen and just lets the food and aid in. Venezuela needs all the help it can get.

[Caracasus]

The Venezualan government might be concerned that the 'aid' contains weapons, mines and explosives. They'd have fair cause. Eliot Abrams - current US envoy to Venezuala has form when it comes to using aid as a cover for smuggling weapons to Contras in Nicaragua.

They might also be wondering why more usual pathways of delivering aid aren't being used. The UN aren't involved and The Red Cross for instance has had to ask people to stop painting trucks of 'aid' to Venezuala as red cross trucks.

Let's not pretend this is as simple as 'Maduro is a baddie!' Huh? The US has form when it comes to committing the occasional massive breech of international law to interfere in Latin American countries. There's no reason to suspect they've made any massive changes to their policies in that regard.

[Phoenicaea]

^ no, this is not a military topic, it is a political topic. the only thing is regime wishes to use hungry people to 'throw' them in neighbour countries, as a menace.

analogy is with either Assad in Sirya, Gheddafi in Lybia (with immigrants), they would use what they think as 'human meat' to throw people unfeed to you if you don t 'aid' their regime.

[Brandican]

Though I am deeply sceptical of the US's motives for intervening in this situation, opening fire on trucks or boats that might be carrying food aid is going to provoke some kind of reaction from the US, probably some form of military intervention, which will screw up Venezuela even more. Maduro should just resign and let Guido take over.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I can't wait for the commie Maduro apologists to show up in this thread.

[Diarcesia]

Though I am deeply sceptical of the US's motives for intervening in this situation, opening fire on trucks or boats that might be carrying food aid is going to provoke some kind of reaction from the US, probably some form of military intervention, which will screw up Venezuela even more. Maduro should just resign and let Guido take over.

The Venezualan government might be concerned that the 'aid' contains weapons, mines and explosives. They'd have fair cause. Eliot Abrams - current US envoy to Venezuala has form when it comes to using aid as a cover for smuggling weapons to Contras in Nicaragua...

Looks like the US just checkmated Maduro here.

[Brandican]

The Venezualan government might be concerned that the 'aid' contains weapons, mines and explosives. They'd have fair cause. Eliot Abrams - current US envoy to Venezuala has form when it comes to using aid as a cover for smuggling weapons to Contras in Nicaragua.

They might also be wondering why more usual pathways of delivering aid aren't being used. The UN aren't involved and The Red Cross for instance has had to ask people to stop painting trucks of 'aid' to Venezuala as red cross trucks.

Let's not pretend this is as simple as 'Maduro is a baddie!' Huh? The US has form when it comes to committing the occasional massive breech of international law to interfere in Latin American countries. There's no reason to suspect they've made any massive changes to their policies in that regard.

You are not wrong to question the legitimacy of the US's so-called 'aid'. But just shooting at planes and boats is not going to make things better. The Venezuelan military should stop the boats and search them. If they're carrying weapons, the smugglers should be detained. If it's just food aid, then they should be let through.

[Woodfiredpizzas]

Doing everything he can to make sure his people starve?

Sure sounds like real communism to me.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Doing everything he can to make sure his people starve?

Sure sounds like real communism to me.

This ^^

[Western Vale Confederacy]

I can't wait for the commie Maduro apologists to show up in this thread.

This, but without the "commie" part.

Maduro apologists and appeasement mini-Chamberlains have very little firm ground to stand on at this point.

[Orostan]

Doing everything he can to make sure his people starve?

Sure sounds like real communism to me.

This ^^

Doing everything he can to make sure his people starve?

Sure sounds like real communism to me.

This ^^

1. Venezuela has a 70% private industry economy. This is objectively not worker control or production for use, therefore it's not socialism or communism.

2. This "aid" is being sent by a man known for sending weapons to Nicaragua in humanitarian aid shipments. Venezuela actually accepts aid from the UN and Red Cross.

[Saiwania]

I'm against any food or economic aid going to Venezuela, unless it is contingent on them overthrowing Maduro if not participating in a US invasion. There should be no occupation, only a quick operation that'd be sufficient to wreck Venezuela's military. Maduro's opposition will be expected to fill any power vacuum.

[Woodfiredpizzas]

This ^^

This ^^

1. Venezuela has a 70% private industry economy. This is objectively not worker control or production for use, therefore it's not socialism or communism.

2. This "aid" is being sent by a man known for sending weapons to Nicaragua in humanitarian aid shipments. Venezuela actually accepts aid from the UN and Red Cross.

1. Venezuela has a 30% communist economy. It’s people are starving. Maduro is doing everything he can to make that worse.

2. This aid can be searched and seized if it contains weapons.

3. Stop trying to hide the failures of communism.

[Digital Planets]

I see Maduro is looking to invest in the human cuisine industry. An excellent move.

[Caracasus]

This ^^

This ^^

1. Venezuela has a 70% private industry economy. This is objectively not worker control or production for use, therefore it's not socialism or communism.

2. This "aid" is being sent by a man known for sending weapons to Nicaragua in humanitarian aid shipments. Venezuela actually accepts aid from the UN and Red Cross.

Pretty much yeah. I mean, you'd actually have to be wilfully ignorant at this point to think that another US backed intervention in Latin America is a good thing for anyone other than a few wealthy Americans.