La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[Liriena]

I really don't see how that's what I'm saying "in essence".

I don't want the Venezuelan people to starve in horrible conditions, nor do I want Maduro to stay in power simply because he's left-wing, but a US-backed coup is the opposite of a solution to that, even if Guaido is a succdem. My stance from the get-go has been that the Venezuelan people should be allowed to solve this crisis on their own terms without anybody else meddling.

and if solving it on their own terms means civil war?

I hope it doesn't come to that. If it does, I'm all for trying as hard as possible to deescalate and resolve it through diplomacy. But I draw the line at military intervention, and I also find it very hypocritical and rather grotesque of the international community to send humanitarian aid to help the Venezuelan people when part of the reason why they need that aid in the first place is the sanctions imposed on their country.

[Rio Cana]

b r a h's
that's in essence what you're saying
When have you last updated your signature, by chance? Looks like you need to move a couple things around into the opposite category.

I really don't see how that's what I'm saying "in essence".

I don't want the Venezuelan people to starve in horrible conditions, nor do I want Maduro to stay in power simply because he's left-wing, but a US-backed coup is the opposite of a solution to that, even if Guaido is a succdem. My stance from the get-go has been that the Venezuelan people should be allowed to solve this crisis on their own terms without anybody else meddling.

Seems a good reply. The thing is that most who are gun-ho on getting involved in Ven. have no idea of Ven. political history. Things like this have happened before. The only difference is that the leadership was more pro-west then Maduro. In the end, its better not to get entangled in Ven. politics. Better to let the citizens of Ven. sort it out themselves since only they really know how things work there.

Has an added bonus read this on the dictator who ran Ven. in the 1950's. The US even game him a medal.
https://wtcradio.net/la-pujante-economi ... -quintero/

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

and if solving it on their own terms means civil war?

I hope it doesn't come to that. If it does, I'm all for trying as hard as possible to deescalate and resolve it through diplomacy. But I draw the line at military intervention, and I also find it very hypocritical and rather grotesque of the international community to send humanitarian aid to help the Venezuelan people when part of the reason why they need that aid in the first place is the sanctions imposed on their country.

lol, Liriena my friend, the sanctions are because of Maduro, this situation cant be resolved through diplomacy, their is nothing to resolve through diplomacy, as Maduro once said, when will the opposition learn the revolution is here to stay, the eternal Venezuelan revolution has been playing with the opposition as a multi political party democracy from the beginning despite its nature, Maduro is addicted to the honey of power and wealth not just wealth, Maduro, the PSUV and the Generals must fall from power, or business as usual, all these diplomatic tactics to force him out will be worth nothing if they stay in power, and the eternal revolution will continue, the question is will this work or will we give up and accept the eternal revolution of Maduro? Like the eternal revolution of Cuba, yes Cuba.

[Novus America]

and if solving it on their own terms means civil war?

I hope it doesn't come to that. If it does, I'm all for trying as hard as possible to deescalate and resolve it through diplomacy. But I draw the line at military intervention, and I also find it very hypocritical and rather grotesque of the international community to send humanitarian aid to help the Venezuelan people when part of the reason why they need that aid in the first place is the sanctions imposed on their country.

The economic collapse started long before any sanctions.
And there are absolutely no sanctions keeping food and medicine out.

Just ones to keep the kleptocracy from stealing so much.

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

Their are only four options:

1: Either the diplomatic tactics to force Maduro and his people out work, or.
2: A very well planned military operation to get Maduro and his people out, similar to what President George W Bush did to Noriega, a sort of military kidnapping of Maduro and his people, or option 3:
3: We accept the eternal revolution of Maduro, like the eternal revolution of Cuba, yes Cuba, or option 4.
4: Diplomacy to resolve this situation does not exist, unless Maduro and his people agree to exile in Spain or another nation, But Maduro is addicted to the honey of power and wealth not just wealth.

[Cedoria]

And here come the hypocritical adherents of liberalism, waving the banner of freedom by seeking to engineer a coup against an elected President and government because they had the temerity to follow an economic policy that did something other then send money overseas,

When your variant of democracy involves voiding the results of legitimate elections declared fair by observers, including Jimmy Carter no less, your perspective of democracy requires adjustment.


Leave Venezuela's problems to Venezuelans.

[Cedoria]

We will see if the aid is allowed to go through or not, and if their is any violence or not on the part of the military. Thank you for a good post US-SSR.

I'm curious how pro-Maduro leftists outside of Venezuela can square it with their conscience when aid is being denied and migrants are having tear gas thrown at them. Perhaps going with a "Western conspirators" narrative or changing the subject by talking about sanctions.

Nope. UN aid is still getting through, as it should. The US can help if it wishes to by providing the supplies to the UN operation and letting it run, not trying to smuggle in weapons undercover in the process, and lift the sanctions that are driving Venezuelans into poverty and deprivation.

That won't fix the country, but it will be the best way for non-Venezuelans to contribute to it.

[Luminesa]

And here come the hypocritical adherents of liberalism, waving the banner of freedom by seeking to engineer a coup against an elected President and government because they had the temerity to follow an economic policy that did something other then send money overseas,

When your variant of democracy involves voiding the results of legitimate elections declared fair by observers, including Jimmy Carter no less, your perspective of democracy requires adjustment.


Leave Venezuela's problems to Venezuelans.

I feel the problem is that Venezuelans at this point have no way to really help themselves against this situation. At the risk of sounding like I'm virtue-signalling, I speak as someone who has no desire to true and mess-over the population with gun-smuggling or whatever. The people are starving, and those who stand against Maduro-who wishes to hurt his own people-are killed, even if they are not being violent. Sure, he was democratically elected, but what does that mean? Make Venezuelans suffer because "they made their bed, now they have to lay in it"? That doesn't sound to compassionate to me. We have to keep in mind also that Maduro is not allowing supplies to go through, even if they may help his people.

[Proctopeo]

And here come the hypocritical adherents of liberalism, waving the banner of freedom by seeking to engineer a coup against an elected President and government

An illegitimate President and his illegal government of cronies, yes. It's delusional to consider the most recent Venezuelan elections as anything but wholly illegitimate.

because they had the temerity to follow an economic policy that did something other then send money overseas

lolno

When your variant of democracy involves voiding the results of legitimate elections declared fair by observers, including Jimmy Carter no less, your perspective of democracy requires adjustment.

[citation needed]
Seems like Carter hasn't said anything of the sort. In fact, from the Carter Center,

“In 2012, I applauded Venezuela’s use of electronic voting machines as exemplary in the world,” said former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. “That characterization since has been misused by Nicolas Maduro to suggest a broad validation of Venezuela’s election system as a whole and of subsequent elections that The Carter Center did not observe. In fact, The Carter Center and others routinely have expressed concern about government interference in recent electoral processes. The Carter Center has not observed elections formally in Venezuela since 2004.”

Stop lying about what elderly former Presidents said to defend a dictator. And you call yourself a "libertarian socialist".

Leave Venezuela's problems to Venezuelans.

How about we don't? We should not take a full-on intervention off the table, given how severe the humanitarian crisis is. This is something we should not just let solve itself.

And here come the hypocritical adherents of liberalism, waving the banner of freedom by seeking to engineer a coup against an elected President and government because they had the temerity to follow an economic policy that did something other then send money overseas,

When your variant of democracy involves voiding the results of legitimate elections declared fair by observers, including Jimmy Carter no less, your perspective of democracy requires adjustment.


Leave Venezuela's problems to Venezuelans.

I feel the problem is that Venezuelans at this point have no way to really help themselves against this situation. At the risk of sounding like I'm virtue-signalling, I speak as someone who has no desire to true and mess-over the population with gun-smuggling or whatever. The people are starving, and those who stand against Maduro-who wishes to hurt his own people-are killed, even if they are not being violent. Sure, he was democratically elected, but what does that mean? Make Venezuelans suffer because "they made their bed, now they have to lay in it"? That doesn't sound to compassionate to me. We have to keep in mind also that Maduro is not allowing supplies to go through, even if they may help his people.

He's not even democratically elected, the election was bunk. He was more reaffirmed as President-for-Life than anything.

[Novus America]

I'm curious how pro-Maduro leftists outside of Venezuela can square it with their conscience when aid is being denied and migrants are having tear gas thrown at them. Perhaps going with a "Western conspirators" narrative or changing the subject by talking about sanctions.

Nope. UN aid is still getting through, as it should. The US can help if it wishes to by providing the supplies to the UN operation and letting it run, not trying to smuggle in weapons undercover in the process, and lift the sanctions that are driving Venezuelans into poverty and deprivation.

That won't fix the country, but it will be the best way for non-Venezuelans to contribute to it.

Michelle Bachelet, the U.N.’s high commissioner for human rights says:
“The Venezuelan government must stop its forces from using excessive force against unarmed protesters and ordinary citizens.”
So umm, yeah.

[Proctopeo]

Nope. UN aid is still getting through, as it should. The US can help if it wishes to by providing the supplies to the UN operation and letting it run, not trying to smuggle in weapons undercover in the process, and lift the sanctions that are driving Venezuelans into poverty and deprivation.

That won't fix the country, but it will be the best way for non-Venezuelans to contribute to it.

Michelle Bachelet, the U.N.’s high commissioner for human rights says:
“The Venezuelan government must stop its forces from using excessive force against unarmed protesters and ordinary citizens.”
So umm, yeah.

Clearly, she's a lying reactionary, and 101.5% of all aid sent to Venezuela is getting past the border. /s

[Rezmaeristan]

I think this is going to go international whether any of us want it or not, what with all these Venezuelans at their country's borders trying to leave. The gun is already loaded, someone just needs to pull the trigger. Where will it be pulled, Colombia or Brazil?

[Novus America]

And here come the hypocritical adherents of liberalism, waving the banner of freedom by seeking to engineer a coup against an elected President and government because they had the temerity to follow an economic policy that did something other then send money overseas,

When your variant of democracy involves voiding the results of legitimate elections declared fair by observers, including Jimmy Carter no less, your perspective of democracy requires adjustment.


Leave Venezuela's problems to Venezuelans.

Umm you do realize Venezuela sends money to Cuba while the people starve right?

Carter did not say any election since 2004 was legitimate. Nothing about the last presidential one. The majority of the world condemned those as illegitimate.

Also what about the Venezuelan government Inyo ring the results of congressional elections?
Winning a legitimate presidential election in 2004 does not give you and your successors the right to rule forever and strip the legislature of all power.

[Luminesa]

Nope. UN aid is still getting through, as it should. The US can help if it wishes to by providing the supplies to the UN operation and letting it run, not trying to smuggle in weapons undercover in the process, and lift the sanctions that are driving Venezuelans into poverty and deprivation.

That won't fix the country, but it will be the best way for non-Venezuelans to contribute to it.

Michelle Bachelet, the U.N.’s high commissioner for human rights says:
“The Venezuelan government must stop its forces from using excessive force against unarmed protesters and ordinary citizens.”
So umm, yeah.

Like I said. I think the Venezuelan people are not going to be able to stop this crisis themselves. Now, will every country who gets involved help them with 100% good will? Probably not. But they need helpers, and we should try to be the helpers. We should pray that compassionate individuals see into helping the Venezuelan people and fight for their basic dignity as people.

[Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores]

Michelle Bachelet, the U.N.’s high commissioner for human rights says:
“The Venezuelan government must stop its forces from using excessive force against unarmed protesters and ordinary citizens.”
So umm, yeah.

Like I said. I think the Venezuelan people are not going to be able to stop this crisis themselves. Now, will every country who gets involved help them with 100% good will? Probably not. But they need helpers, and we should try to be the helpers. We should pray that compassionate individuals see into helping the Venezuelan people and fight for their basic dignity as people.

So far the international diplomatic tactics of trying to force him out is not working, because he has the support of the military soldiers who actually do the fighting, so the Venezuelan people do need help.

[Cedoria]

Nope. UN aid is still getting through, as it should. The US can help if it wishes to by providing the supplies to the UN operation and letting it run, not trying to smuggle in weapons undercover in the process, and lift the sanctions that are driving Venezuelans into poverty and deprivation.

That won't fix the country, but it will be the best way for non-Venezuelans to contribute to it.

Michelle Bachelet, the U.N.’s high commissioner for human rights says:
“The Venezuelan government must stop its forces from using excessive force against unarmed protesters and ordinary citizens.”
So umm, yeah.

Yet the UN aid is still getting through, which was my claim, I am not suggesting the UN aid in any way indicates support for Maduro, it doesn't, nor should it.

[Cedoria]

And here come the hypocritical adherents of liberalism, waving the banner of freedom by seeking to engineer a coup against an elected President and government because they had the temerity to follow an economic policy that did something other then send money overseas,

When your variant of democracy involves voiding the results of legitimate elections declared fair by observers, including Jimmy Carter no less, your perspective of democracy requires adjustment.


Leave Venezuela's problems to Venezuelans.

Umm you do realize Venezuela sends money to Cuba while the people starve right?

Carter did not say any election since 2004 was legitimate. Nothing about the last presidential one. The majority of the world condemned those as illegitimate.

Also what about the Venezuelan government Inyo ring the results of congressional elections?
Winning a legitimate presidential election in 2004 does not give you and your successors the right to rule forever and strip the legislature of all power.

Most observers on the ground have said the recent ones were legitimate, and the opposition candidate announced his campaign after a thirty-five minute speech on state television. Today, members of the opposition who never contested an election openly call for a coup and foreign invasion.

If this is a despotic regime, it's the shittiest one I've ever seen. People in democratic countries have been jailed for less then calling for a foreign invasion to install a candidate who has never contested an election, let alone won it.

[Cedoria]

And here come the hypocritical adherents of liberalism, waving the banner of freedom by seeking to engineer a coup against an elected President and government

An illegitimate President and his illegal government of cronies, yes. It's delusional to consider the most recent Venezuelan elections as anything but wholly illegitimate.

because they had the temerity to follow an economic policy that did something other then send money overseas

lolno

When your variant of democracy involves voiding the results of legitimate elections declared fair by observers, including Jimmy Carter no less, your perspective of democracy requires adjustment.

[citation needed]
Seems like Carter hasn't said anything of the sort. In fact, from the Carter Center,

“In 2012, I applauded Venezuela’s use of electronic voting machines as exemplary in the world,” said former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. “That characterization since has been misused by Nicolas Maduro to suggest a broad validation of Venezuela’s election system as a whole and of subsequent elections that The Carter Center did not observe. In fact, The Carter Center and others routinely have expressed concern about government interference in recent electoral processes. The Carter Center has not observed elections formally in Venezuela since 2004.”

Stop lying about what elderly former Presidents said to defend a dictator. And you call yourself a "libertarian socialist".

Leave Venezuela's problems to Venezuelans.

How about we don't? We should not take a full-on intervention off the table, given how severe the humanitarian crisis is. This is something we should not just let solve itself.

I feel the problem is that Venezuelans at this point have no way to really help themselves against this situation. At the risk of sounding like I'm virtue-signalling, I speak as someone who has no desire to true and mess-over the population with gun-smuggling or whatever. The people are starving, and those who stand against Maduro-who wishes to hurt his own people-are killed, even if they are not being violent. Sure, he was democratically elected, but what does that mean? Make Venezuelans suffer because "they made their bed, now they have to lay in it"? That doesn't sound to compassionate to me. We have to keep in mind also that Maduro is not allowing supplies to go through, even if they may help his people.

He's not even democratically elected, the election was bunk. He was more reaffirmed as President-for-Life than anything.

Thanks for the correction re: Carter, my original info was wrong.

Has it been announced there will be no elections for President in future in Venezuela, because if not, then this claim of President for Life is just hyperbole.

Frankly I would think people with an familiarity with the US historical record in Latin America would be very cautious about calling for their intervention.

If the majority of the Venezuelan people support the opposition, let them declare so, without coercion, economic warfare or state terrorism.

[Novus America]

Michelle Bachelet, the U.N.’s high commissioner for human rights says:
“The Venezuelan government must stop its forces from using excessive force against unarmed protesters and ordinary citizens.”
So umm, yeah.

Yet the UN aid is still getting through, which was my claim, I am not suggesting the UN aid in any way indicates support for Maduro, it doesn't, nor should it.

Evidence? Citations?

[Novus America]

An illegitimate President and his illegal government of cronies, yes. It's delusional to consider the most recent Venezuelan elections as anything but wholly illegitimate.


lolno


[citation needed]
Seems like Carter hasn't said anything of the sort. In fact, from the Carter Center,

“In 2012, I applauded Venezuela’s use of electronic voting machines as exemplary in the world,” said former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. “That characterization since has been misused by Nicolas Maduro to suggest a broad validation of Venezuela’s election system as a whole and of subsequent elections that The Carter Center did not observe. In fact, The Carter Center and others routinely have expressed concern about government interference in recent electoral processes. The Carter Center has not observed elections formally in Venezuela since 2004.”

Stop lying about what elderly former Presidents said to defend a dictator. And you call yourself a "libertarian socialist".


How about we don't? We should not take a full-on intervention off the table, given how severe the humanitarian crisis is. This is something we should not just let solve itself.


He's not even democratically elected, the election was bunk. He was more reaffirmed as President-for-Life than anything.

Thanks for the correction re: Carter, my original info was wrong.

Has it been announced there will be no elections for President in future in Venezuela, because if not, then this claim of President for Life is just hyperbole.

Frankly I would think people with an familiarity with the US historical record in Latin America would be very cautious about calling for their intervention.

If the majority of the Venezuelan people support the opposition, let them declare so, without coercion, economic warfare or state terrorism.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Ve ... y_election

[Cedoria]

And here come the hypocritical adherents of liberalism, waving the banner of freedom by seeking to engineer a coup against an elected President and government because they had the temerity to follow an economic policy that did something other then send money overseas,

When your variant of democracy involves voiding the results of legitimate elections declared fair by observers, including Jimmy Carter no less, your perspective of democracy requires adjustment.


Leave Venezuela's problems to Venezuelans.

I feel the problem is that Venezuelans at this point have no way to really help themselves against this situation. At the risk of sounding like I'm virtue-signalling, I speak as someone who has no desire to true and mess-over the population with gun-smuggling or whatever. The people are starving, and those who stand against Maduro-who wishes to hurt his own people-are killed, even if they are not being violent. Sure, he was democratically elected, but what does that mean? Make Venezuelans suffer because "they made their bed, now they have to lay in it"? That doesn't sound to compassionate to me. We have to keep in mind also that Maduro is not allowing supplies to go through, even if they may help his people.

Some people have justified very horrible atrocities in the name of compassion. Be careful of calling for intervention by a power with a proven history of imposing murderers, torturers and despots across the region for a century and a bit, especially if compassion is your motivation.


Once the intervention happens, the objectives of Trump and Bolton and the like will matter more then your own sincere compassion. You can ask yourself if you're comfortable leaving Venezuela to that fate. I won't presume to know if you are.

[Cedoria]

Yet the UN aid is still getting through, which was my claim, I am not suggesting the UN aid in any way indicates support for Maduro, it doesn't, nor should it.

Evidence? Citations?

I don't think this counts as supporting the regime.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN1NV2AR


As of yet the UN has maintained only a humanitarian principle, which is precisely the position both the US and the opposition should support if democracy and prosperity are their interests.


When you openly call for the installation of a 'democracy' on behalf of a man who has never been elected, and need military force to it him there, I am skeptical of your claims for democracy.

[Proctopeo]

An illegitimate President and his illegal government of cronies, yes. It's delusional to consider the most recent Venezuelan elections as anything but wholly illegitimate.


lolno


[citation needed]
Seems like Carter hasn't said anything of the sort. In fact, from the Carter Center,

“In 2012, I applauded Venezuela’s use of electronic voting machines as exemplary in the world,” said former U.S. President Jimmy Carter. “That characterization since has been misused by Nicolas Maduro to suggest a broad validation of Venezuela’s election system as a whole and of subsequent elections that The Carter Center did not observe. In fact, The Carter Center and others routinely have expressed concern about government interference in recent electoral processes. The Carter Center has not observed elections formally in Venezuela since 2004.”

Stop lying about what elderly former Presidents said to defend a dictator. And you call yourself a "libertarian socialist".


How about we don't? We should not take a full-on intervention off the table, given how severe the humanitarian crisis is. This is something we should not just let solve itself.


He's not even democratically elected, the election was bunk. He was more reaffirmed as President-for-Life than anything.

Thanks for the correction re: Carter, my original info was wrong.

Glad you recognized that.

Has it been announced there will be no elections for President in future in Venezuela, because if not, then this claim of President for Life is just hyperbole.

Hyperbole, perhaps, but what do you expect when a bogus election is held, after the reigning President established his own legislature with hookers and blackjack party stooges and nothing else? He's probably going to either be deposed or die in office of natural causes, not peacefully give up power once the people start getting louder.

Frankly I would think people with an familiarity with the US historical record in Latin America would be very cautious about calling for their intervention.

I'd rather have le ebil amerigan imperialists get involved than a literal dictator continue to ruin his country.
It's time to take a chance, for the health, safety, and liberty of millions. Else you can't call yourself a "libertarian" anything.

If the majority of the Venezuelan people support the opposition, let them declare so, without coercion, economic warfare or state terrorism.

Given that around the time of the election, Maduro had an approval rating of 21%, it's likely they do.
Problem is, an opposition needs more than just a starving support base to have weight behind it.

Some people have justified very horrible atrocities in the name of compassion. Be careful of calling for intervention by a power with a proven history of imposing murderers, torturers and despots across the region for a century and a bit, especially if compassion is your motivation.

Once the intervention happens, the objectives of Trump and Bolton and the like will matter more then your own sincere compassion. You can ask yourself if you're comfortable leaving Venezuela to that fate. I won't presume to know if you are.

You're clearly comfortable leaving Venezuela to the fate of a horrid despot, you're just opposed to it being one supported by America instead of the PRC and Russia.

Evidence? Citations?

I don't think this counts as supporting the regime.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN1NV2AR


As of yet the UN has maintained only a humanitarian principle, which is precisely the position both the US and the opposition should support if democracy and prosperity are their interests.


When you openly call for the installation of a 'democracy' on behalf of a man who has never been elected, and need military force to it him there, I am skeptical of your claims for democracy.

I think they wanted evidence for the UN aid getting through, when it's evidently stuck at the border. If any is getting through, it's a small portion and not enough to help.

[Novus America]

Umm you do realize Venezuela sends money to Cuba while the people starve right?

Carter did not say any election since 2004 was legitimate. Nothing about the last presidential one. The majority of the world condemned those as illegitimate.

Also what about the Venezuelan government Inyo ring the results of congressional elections?
Winning a legitimate presidential election in 2004 does not give you and your successors the right to rule forever and strip the legislature of all power.

Most observers on the ground have said the recent ones were legitimate, and the opposition candidate announced his campaign after a thirty-five minute speech on state television. Today, members of the opposition who never contested an election openly call for a coup and foreign invasion.

If this is a despotic regime, it's the shittiest one I've ever seen. People in democratic countries have been jailed for less then calling for a foreign invasion to install a candidate who has never contested an election, let alone won it.

The only people allowed to observe were on the side of the government.

And yes, the Madura regime is probably the shittiest regime in quite a while.
Nobody is disputing its shittiness.

[Novus America]

Evidence? Citations?

I don't think this counts as supporting the regime.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN1NV2AR


As of yet the UN has maintained only a humanitarian principle, which is precisely the position both the US and the opposition should support if democracy and prosperity are their interests.


When you openly call for the installation of a 'democracy' on behalf of a man who has never been elected, and need military force to it him there, I am skeptical of your claims for democracy.

That source only says that is what the UN wants to give. Nothing about it getting in or getting to the right people.