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by Crisconsin » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:41 am
by Hammer Britannia » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:43 am
Crisconsin wrote:My skin crawled when the news came. .>.
My mom and brother were both born in Venezuela
by Greater La Habana Cuba and Miami Shores » Tue Apr 30, 2019 6:45 am
Crisconsin wrote:My skin crawled when the news came. .>.
My mom and brother were both born in Venezuela
by Crisconsin » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:00 am
Hammer Britannia wrote:Crisconsin wrote:My skin crawled when the news came. .>.
My mom and brother were both born in Venezuela
I'm not Venezuelan, but some of my online friends live in Venezuela. One of them began running away before the coup even started, but the rest I can only hope for the best for.
by Phoenicaea » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:07 am
by Loben The 2nd » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:44 am
by Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:33 am
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:39 am
Shanhwa wrote:If the coup succeeds I’ll need several new pairs of pants.
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by An Alan Smithee Nation » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:39 am
by Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:42 am
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by Bahktar » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:42 am
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Still doesn't look like Guaido has enough support in the military to win.
by Bahktar » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:44 am
Liriena wrote:I'd prefer it if this situation wasn't resolved by way of a US-backed military coup. The status quo sucks but it's gonna take a lot to convince me that a military coup backed by a neocon American government is going to turn out any better than it did for pretty much every South American country in the 20th century. And the fact that Guaido's policy promises all revolve around begging foreign powers to help him out in exchange for giving foreign investors a lot more power over Venezuelan oil sure doesn't lessen my skepticism.
by Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:47 am
Liriena wrote:Senkaku wrote:You'd prefer Maduro's status quo, then?
I'd prefer it if this situation wasn't resolved by way of a US-backed military coup. The status quo sucks but it's gonna take a lot to convince me that a military coup backed by a neocon American government is going to turn out any better than it did for pretty much every South American country in the 20th century. And the fact that Guaido's policy promises all revolve around begging foreign powers to help him out in exchange for giving foreign investors a lot more power over Venezuelan oil sure doesn't lessen my skepticism.
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:48 am
Bahktar wrote:Liriena wrote:I'd prefer it if this situation wasn't resolved by way of a US-backed military coup. The status quo sucks but it's gonna take a lot to convince me that a military coup backed by a neocon American government is going to turn out any better than it did for pretty much every South American country in the 20th century. And the fact that Guaido's policy promises all revolve around begging foreign powers to help him out in exchange for giving foreign investors a lot more power over Venezuelan oil sure doesn't lessen my skepticism.
"US-backed military coup" - I don't see any US soldiers, advisers or any of that sort
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by Senkaku » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:04 pm
The status quo sucks but it's gonna take a lot to convince me that a military coup backed by a neocon American government is going to turn out any better than it did for pretty much every South American country in the 20th century.
And the fact that Guaido's policy promises all revolve around begging foreign powers to help him out in exchange for giving foreign investors a lot more power over Venezuelan oil sure doesn't lessen my skepticism.
Liriena wrote:Liriena wrote:I'd prefer it if this situation wasn't resolved by way of a US-backed military coup. The status quo sucks but it's gonna take a lot to convince me that a military coup backed by a neocon American government is going to turn out any better than it did for pretty much every South American country in the 20th century. And the fact that Guaido's policy promises all revolve around begging foreign powers to help him out in exchange for giving foreign investors a lot more power over Venezuelan oil sure doesn't lessen my skepticism.
I'm sorry, but when the self-proclaimed "social democratic" liberator of Venezuela goes on to write an op-ed on Bloomberg where he pleads for China's intervention, lies about wanting a "peaceful transition" and basically whores his own country out,
it's hard for me to then go "oh, yeah, let's overthrow the guy who's not doing that in a bloody military uprising".
by Aclion » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:13 pm
by Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:21 pm
Senkaku wrote:The status quo sucks but it's gonna take a lot to convince me that a military coup backed by a neocon American government is going to turn out any better than it did for pretty much every South American country in the 20th century.
I think it's disingenuous and silly to compare Guaido to people like Pinochet and the Contras.
Senkaku wrote:And the fact that Guaido's policy promises all revolve around begging foreign powers to help him out in exchange for giving foreign investors a lot more power over Venezuelan oil sure doesn't lessen my skepticism.
I mean, Venezuela doesn't really have a lot of fucking options at the moment, economically or politically. Maduro's run their economy so far into the ground that they're going to need to leverage oil and foreign investment to try and recover, and the man is so entrenched that I can see why Guaido would ask for other countries to help.
Senkaku wrote:
I'm sorry, what options does he have? He's asked the US, he's asked China (the fact that he's asking both frankly makes me more hopeful that he's committed to Venezuelan sovereignty and will try to play the superpowers off each other), Maduro still has the military and Russian support and is killing people and ruining the country- what options are left?
Senkaku wrote:it's hard for me to then go "oh, yeah, let's overthrow the guy who's not doing that in a bloody military uprising".
I'm sorry, you think Maduro isn't whoring his own country out and groveling for foreign backers? Fucking lol, this is some peak left-twitter energy, Liri
additionally, as far as I can see this "military coup" you're screaming about doesn't really seem to be happening, beyond Guaido being in a video w some soldiers and some gunfire going down- Maduro is still rallying his people and National Guard armored cars are literally running people over lmao
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:24 pm
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by Senkaku » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:31 pm
Senkaku wrote:I think it's disingenuous and silly to compare Guaido to people like Pinochet and the Contras.
The fact that Guaido himself is, at least nominally, a social democrat doesn't mean that the aftermath of a successful coup would be guaranteed to be one in which the new regime is libertarian and respectful of institutions.
Specially not when it seems that a lot of the stronger interests in the conflict are quite open about how violently desperate they are to see Maduro go by any means necessary.
Senkaku wrote:I mean, Venezuela doesn't really have a lot of fucking options at the moment, economically or politically. Maduro's run their economy so far into the ground that they're going to need to leverage oil and foreign investment to try and recover, and the man is so entrenched that I can see why Guaido would ask for other countries to help.
Neoliberal economics are not going to solve the problems faced by the Venezuelan people right now. And those are the economics that Guaido's backers want.
Senkaku wrote:Liri, the Russians are the ones with boots on the ground, if you hadn't noticed.
Doesn't change the fact that the American government has a lot of people in it who have openly expressed a desire to directly intervene and, on top of that, has picked that particular guy to handle the crisis.
Senkaku wrote:I'm sorry, what options does he have? He's asked the US, he's asked China (the fact that he's asking both frankly makes me more hopeful that he's committed to Venezuelan sovereignty and will try to play the superpowers off each other), Maduro still has the military and Russian support and is killing people and ruining the country- what options are left?
I don't know what other options are left, but the choices made so far don't encourage me.
Senkaku wrote:I'm sorry, you think Maduro isn't whoring his own country out and groveling for foreign backers? Fucking lol, this is some peak left-twitter energy, Liri
additionally, as far as I can see this "military coup" you're screaming about doesn't really seem to be happening, beyond Guaido being in a video w some soldiers and some gunfire going down- Maduro is still rallying his people and National Guard armored cars are literally running people over lmao
If all that is true... then what's the real difference between Maduro and Guaido?
If both are trying to either gain or maintain power through brute force, if both are selling their country's economy to the highest bidder for support... what's the difference?
by Senkaku » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:33 pm
by Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:42 pm
Senkaku wrote:The fact that Guaido himself is, at least nominally, a social democrat doesn't mean that the aftermath of a successful coup would be guaranteed to be one in which the new regime is libertarian and respectful of institutions.
No, you're right, it's not guaranteed to be a good outcome- but it seems to me that it's a lot more likely that Guaido taking power will lead to a good outcome than Maduro staying.
Senkaku wrote:Specially not when it seems that a lot of the stronger interests in the conflict are quite open about how violently desperate they are to see Maduro go by any means necessary.
I mean, it seems to me that Maduro has kinda backed them into a corner by being so violently desperate to stay in power, and crashing the economy in the process.
Senkaku wrote:Neoliberal economics are not going to solve the problems faced by the Venezuelan people right now. And those are the economics that Guaido's backers want.
Well, it sure as fuck doesn't seem like Chavez's ideas are doing a whole fucking lot, so I'd be willing to bet that proven economic ideas are more likely to help move the country towards recovery.
Senkaku wrote:Doesn't change the fact that the American government has a lot of people in it who have openly expressed a desire to directly intervene and, on top of that, has picked that particular guy to handle the crisis.
You won't find me disagreeing that the US has an optics problem here, but I'm not convinced that it goes deeper than an optics problem.
Senkaku wrote:If all that is true... then what's the real difference between Maduro and Guaido?
...are you fucking kidding me?If both are trying to either gain or maintain power through brute force, if both are selling their country's economy to the highest bidder for support... what's the difference?
One is a dictator who's rigged elections, crashed the economy, illegally destroyed or subverted every political institution in the country to consolidate his own power, murdered and suppressed his own people, persecuted journalists and political opponents, enriched his cronies to the detriment of the people and overseen massive criminal activities, and completely abased himself to foreign powers like Cuba, Russia, Iran, and China. The other is an opposition leader with strong popular support who's been trying to peacefully remove him through a constitutional process and encouraging other countries to stand up for the human rights of the Venezuelan people and against the dictator who's oppressing them.
And you can't tell the fucking difference? Give me a fucking break.
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by Far Easter Republic » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:44 pm
by Liriena » Tue Apr 30, 2019 12:47 pm
Senkaku wrote:Because he's constitutionally the legitimate commander-in-chief and Maduro has control of the military? You'll note he's also calling on the Venezuelan people...?
Senkaku wrote:...are you kidding? How is Operation Condor in any way comparable to this?
Senkaku wrote:If the US were supporting Maduro instead of Guaido, and the Russians or Chinese backing Guaido, what would you be saying? You'd be saying the US is supporting a brutal and fantastically corrupt dictatorship, and cheering on the opposition.
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
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