La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[Luminesa]

I feel the problem is that Venezuelans at this point have no way to really help themselves against this situation. At the risk of sounding like I'm virtue-signalling, I speak as someone who has no desire to true and mess-over the population with gun-smuggling or whatever. The people are starving, and those who stand against Maduro-who wishes to hurt his own people-are killed, even if they are not being violent. Sure, he was democratically elected, but what does that mean? Make Venezuelans suffer because "they made their bed, now they have to lay in it"? That doesn't sound to compassionate to me. We have to keep in mind also that Maduro is not allowing supplies to go through, even if they may help his people.

Some people have justified very horrible atrocities in the name of compassion. Be careful of calling for intervention by a power with a proven history of imposing murderers, torturers and despots across the region for a century and a bit, especially if compassion is your motivation.


Once the intervention happens, the objectives of Trump and Bolton and the like will matter more then your own sincere compassion. You can ask yourself if you're comfortable leaving Venezuela to that fate. I won't presume to know if you are.

I think the one problem we can agree with in this scenario is that, at best, there are no perfect heroes. Heck, one can argue if they're really cynical that there might not be ANY true heroes in this scenario. ANY country that gets involved with Venezuela will have a history of imposing murderer, torturers, and despots on others (except something like...Poland? Maybe? I dunno.). And I don't say this to make what we've done in South America any less nasty. Yes, the US has done some awful things. In times past, however, withholding aid (see the Rwandan Genocide, in which Bill Clinton could have done things to get involved with genuinely helping the people Rwanda but chose to stay out of it) has not yielded the best results either. In fact, sometimes it has yielded some painful and horrific results.

It's a tough, gritty spot, and people will be hurt no matter who jumps in, especially considering how trigger-happy Maduro has been about holding onto power-he will probably continue to hurt people no matter what, because he is a cruel dictator. And no, I don't think Trump has much compassion for anyone outside of a five-foot radius of himself, but other Americans may. In fact, many other Americans do. Think about what Mr. Rogers liked to say when we were children: "Look for the helpers. You can always find helpers." That might sound naive and childish, sure, but because people like Trump might not have the best intentions in mind for these poor people, we have to, and we have to try and do what we can. Can I do much myself? Not currently. You might possibly think this is a bunch of hooey, but all I can do is pray, and try to donate money to help the Venezuelan people when I manage to get that money.

[Cedoria]

Some people have justified very horrible atrocities in the name of compassion. Be careful of calling for intervention by a power with a proven history of imposing murderers, torturers and despots across the region for a century and a bit, especially if compassion is your motivation.


Once the intervention happens, the objectives of Trump and Bolton and the like will matter more then your own sincere compassion. You can ask yourself if you're comfortable leaving Venezuela to that fate. I won't presume to know if you are.

I think the one problem we can agree with in this scenario is that, at best, there are no perfect heroes. Heck, one can argue if they're really cynical that there might not be ANY true heroes in this scenario. ANY country that gets involved with Venezuela will have a history of imposing murderer, torturers, and despots on others (except something like...Poland? Maybe? I dunno.). And I don't say this to make what we've done in South America any less nasty. Yes, the US has done some awful things. In times past, however, withholding aid (see the Rwandan Genocide, in which Bill Clinton could have done things to get involved with genuinely helping the people Rwanda but chose to stay out of it) has not yielded the best results either. In fact, sometimes it has yielded some painful and horrific results.

It's a tough, gritty spot, and people will be hurt no matter who jumps in, especially considering how trigger-happy Maduro has been about holding onto power-he will probably continue to hurt people no matter what, because he is a cruel dictator. And no, I don't think Trump has much compassion for anyone outside of a five-foot radius of himself, but other Americans may. In fact, many other Americans do. Think about what Mr. Rogers liked to say when we were children: "Look for the helpers. You can always find helpers." That might sound naive and childish, sure, but because people like Trump might not have the best intentions in mind for these poor people, we have to, and we have to try and do what we can. Can I do much myself? Not currently. You might possibly think this is a bunch of hooey, but all I can do is pray, and try to donate money to help the Venezuelan people when I manage to get that money.

Indeed. It is sadly, a bunch of hooey. You can have as many good people as you like in favour of this, if they're not controlling the policy, it won't do anything for anyone.

Thanks for the correction re: Carter, my original info was wrong.

Glad you recognized that.

Has it been announced there will be no elections for President in future in Venezuela, because if not, then this claim of President for Life is just hyperbole.

Hyperbole, perhaps, but what do you expect when a bogus election is held, after the reigning President established his own legislature with hookers and blackjack party stooges and nothing else? He's probably going to either be deposed or die in office of natural causes, not peacefully give up power once the people start getting louder.

Frankly I would think people with an familiarity with the US historical record in Latin America would be very cautious about calling for their intervention.

I'd rather have le ebil amerigan imperialists get involved than a literal dictator continue to ruin his country.
It's time to take a chance, for the health, safety, and liberty of millions. Else you can't call yourself a "libertarian" anything.

If the majority of the Venezuelan people support the opposition, let them declare so, without coercion, economic warfare or state terrorism.

Given that around the time of the election, Maduro had an approval rating of 21%, it's likely they do.
Problem is, an opposition needs more than just a starving support base to have weight behind it.

Once the intervention happens, the objectives of Trump and Bolton and the like will matter more then your own sincere compassion. You can ask yourself if you're comfortable leaving Venezuela to that fate. I won't presume to know if you are.

You're clearly comfortable leaving Venezuela to the fate of a horrid despot, you're just opposed to it being one supported by America instead of the PRC and Russia.

I don't think this counts as supporting the regime.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKCN1NV2AR


As of yet the UN has maintained only a humanitarian principle, which is precisely the position both the US and the opposition should support if democracy and prosperity are their interests.


When you openly call for the installation of a 'democracy' on behalf of a man who has never been elected, and need military force to it him there, I am skeptical of your claims for democracy.

I think they wanted evidence for the UN aid getting through, when it's evidently stuck at the border. If any is getting through, it's a small portion and not enough to help.

If I were supportive of leaving Venezuela under a government that openly calls for coups and invasion from a foreign power to install itself, then I'd be concerned I was against my own principles.

I do not recall China or Russia organising for the illegal overthrow of an elected government, so I'll ignore that useless hyperbole for the nonsense it is.


The libertarian left position on this is consistent, Venezuelan people have a right to self-determination, not foreign economic warfare and invasion. And claims from the US to 'help' should be treated as the nonsense they are when they continue waging economic warfare by blocking the country's biggest export, the price of which is already dropping, and considering it's history throughout not just Venezuela but the entire region. I am unimpressed by the posturings of those who hand wave this away, if there's a crisis in Bolivia ten years from now, the same people will hand wave Venezuela as just another atrocity, and claim the next one will be different when they invade this time, it never is, and never will be.

Venezuela belongs to Venezuelans, not foreign states or oil corporations. When the Venezuelan public, without economic coercion or state terrorism from any neighbouring states, agrees to support other candidates, then and only then should there be a changeover. When the opposition is calling for a military coup and an invasion, there can be no pretence that they are interested in democracy.

[Cedoria]

Most observers on the ground have said the recent ones were legitimate, and the opposition candidate announced his campaign after a thirty-five minute speech on state television. Today, members of the opposition who never contested an election openly call for a coup and foreign invasion.

If this is a despotic regime, it's the shittiest one I've ever seen. People in democratic countries have been jailed for less then calling for a foreign invasion to install a candidate who has never contested an election, let alone won it.

The only people allowed to observe were on the side of the government.

And yes, the Madura regime is probably the shittiest regime in quite a while.
Nobody is disputing its shittiness.

It's crappiness is irrelevant to whether a foreign power has the right to invade and occupy it to install a candidate who has never contested a democratic election, and has no authority to assume the Presidency unless the armed forces choose to sanction it, which is a coup.

Likewise, the only people who claim they were fraudulent are the opposition and those backing them who lost. Par for the course for the Venezuelan opposition no matter who they are, they always claim a rigged election when they lose, tis par for the course in Venezuela. Just usually it's not financially and militarily supported by the world's mightiest superpower.

[Luminesa]

I think the one problem we can agree with in this scenario is that, at best, there are no perfect heroes. Heck, one can argue if they're really cynical that there might not be ANY true heroes in this scenario. ANY country that gets involved with Venezuela will have a history of imposing murderer, torturers, and despots on others (except something like...Poland? Maybe? I dunno.). And I don't say this to make what we've done in South America any less nasty. Yes, the US has done some awful things. In times past, however, withholding aid (see the Rwandan Genocide, in which Bill Clinton could have done things to get involved with genuinely helping the people Rwanda but chose to stay out of it) has not yielded the best results either. In fact, sometimes it has yielded some painful and horrific results.

It's a tough, gritty spot, and people will be hurt no matter who jumps in, especially considering how trigger-happy Maduro has been about holding onto power-he will probably continue to hurt people no matter what, because he is a cruel dictator. And no, I don't think Trump has much compassion for anyone outside of a five-foot radius of himself, but other Americans may. In fact, many other Americans do. Think about what Mr. Rogers liked to say when we were children: "Look for the helpers. You can always find helpers." That might sound naive and childish, sure, but because people like Trump might not have the best intentions in mind for these poor people, we have to, and we have to try and do what we can. Can I do much myself? Not currently. You might possibly think this is a bunch of hooey, but all I can do is pray, and try to donate money to help the Venezuelan people when I manage to get that money.

Indeed. It is sadly, a bunch of hooey. You can have as many good people as you like in favour of this, if they're not controlling the policy, it won't do anything for anyone.

Glad you recognized that.


Hyperbole, perhaps, but what do you expect when a bogus election is held, after the reigning President established his own legislature with hookers and blackjack party stooges and nothing else? He's probably going to either be deposed or die in office of natural causes, not peacefully give up power once the people start getting louder.


I'd rather have le ebil amerigan imperialists get involved than a literal dictator continue to ruin his country.
It's time to take a chance, for the health, safety, and liberty of millions. Else you can't call yourself a "libertarian" anything.


Given that around the time of the election, Maduro had an approval rating of 21%, it's likely they do.
Problem is, an opposition needs more than just a starving support base to have weight behind it.


You're clearly comfortable leaving Venezuela to the fate of a horrid despot, you're just opposed to it being one supported by America instead of the PRC and Russia.


I think they wanted evidence for the UN aid getting through, when it's evidently stuck at the border. If any is getting through, it's a small portion and not enough to help.

If I were supportive of leaving Venezuela under a government that openly calls for coups and invasion from a foreign power to install itself.

I do not recall China or Russia organising for the illegal overthrow of an elected government, so I'll ignore that useless hyperbole for the nonsense it is.


The libertarian left position on this is consistent, Venezuelan people have a right to self-determination, not foreign economic warfare and invasion. And claims from the US to 'help' should be treated as the nonsense they are when they continue waging economic warfare by blocking the country's biggest export, the price of which is already dropping, and considering it's history throughout not just Venezuela but the entire region. I am unimpressed by the posturings of those who hand wave this away, if there's a crisis in Bolivia ten years from now, the same people will hand wave Venezuela as just another atrocity, and claim the next one will be different when they invade this time, it never is, and never will be.

Venezuela belongs to Venezuelans, not foreign states or oil corporations. When the Venezuelan public, without economic coercion or state terrorism from any neighbouring states, agrees to support other candidates, then and only then should there be a changeover. When the opposition is calling for a military coup and an invasion, there can be no pretence that they are interested in democracy.

Do we have to wait for our policy-makers to do good deeds before we do them ourselves? That’s the other question. I may not be able to do much, unfortunately, but other good people can and wish to try. Do they need to wait for Mr. Trump to become kind and loving before they go into Venezuela and help the people?

[Cedoria]

Indeed. It is sadly, a bunch of hooey. You can have as many good people as you like in favour of this, if they're not controlling the policy, it won't do anything for anyone.




If I were supportive of leaving Venezuela under a government that openly calls for coups and invasion from a foreign power to install itself.

I do not recall China or Russia organising for the illegal overthrow of an elected government, so I'll ignore that useless hyperbole for the nonsense it is.


The libertarian left position on this is consistent, Venezuelan people have a right to self-determination, not foreign economic warfare and invasion. And claims from the US to 'help' should be treated as the nonsense they are when they continue waging economic warfare by blocking the country's biggest export, the price of which is already dropping, and considering it's history throughout not just Venezuela but the entire region. I am unimpressed by the posturings of those who hand wave this away, if there's a crisis in Bolivia ten years from now, the same people will hand wave Venezuela as just another atrocity, and claim the next one will be different when they invade this time, it never is, and never will be.

Venezuela belongs to Venezuelans, not foreign states or oil corporations. When the Venezuelan public, without economic coercion or state terrorism from any neighbouring states, agrees to support other candidates, then and only then should there be a changeover. When the opposition is calling for a military coup and an invasion, there can be no pretence that they are interested in democracy.

Do we have to wait for our policy-makers to do good deeds before we do them ourselves? That’s the other question. I may not be able to do much, unfortunately, but other good people can and wish to try. Do they need to wait for Mr. Trump to become kind and loving before they go into Venezuela and help the people?

If they want to overthrow the Maduro government in the name of compassion, go get the forces together and do it. But if you honestly think that your compassion will matter Jack crap if they invade Venezuela well, I have a bridge in Manhattan to sell you, very strong and sturdy, for a low, low price.

Once you support a policy proposed by someone else, they control it's outcomes, not you. If you want US action on this, you're putting it, and Venezuela in the hands of a gang in the form of an administration. If you're comfortable with that, fine, but be aware that's what you're doing.

Personally, I have more faith in the Venezuelan people to elect their leaders and remove ones they dislike as they choose without foreign help. I don't for a second buy the claims of those who would have you believe Venezuelans are just too damn stupid to elect the candidate that the oligarchs have chosen for them damnit!

If the US wants to really embrace the anti-globalist path it's President now preaches, it's time it walked the walk in its own actions, and let Venezuelans settle their issues without coercion or sabotage.

[Luminesa]

Do we have to wait for our policy-makers to do good deeds before we do them ourselves? That’s the other question. I may not be able to do much, unfortunately, but other good people can and wish to try. Do they need to wait for Mr. Trump to become kind and loving before they go into Venezuela and help the people?

If they want to overthrow the Maduro government in the name of compassion, go get the forces together and do it. But if you honestly think that your compassion will matter Jack crap if they invade Venezuela well, I have a bridge in Manhattan to sell you, very strong and sturdy, for a low, low price.

Once you support a policy proposed by someone else, they control it's outcomes, not you. If you want US action on this, you're putting it, and Venezuela in the hands of a gang in the form of an administration. If you're comfortable with that, fine, but be aware that's what you're doing.

Personally, I have more faith in the Venezuelan people to elect their leaders and remove ones they dislike as they choose without foreign help. I don't for a second buy the claims of those who would have you believe Venezuelans are just too damn stupid to elect the candidate that the oligarchs have chosen for them damnit!

If the US wants to really embrace the anti-globalist path it's President now preaches, it's time it walked the walk in its own actions, and let Venezuelans settle their issues without coercion or sabotage.

I know you think I am probably naive. That’s nothing new, most people in my life have said at some point that I’m naive. The problem is the Venezuelan people cannot help themselves. They’re not stupid, the election was not democratic, and most Venezuelans were aware of this when he got elected:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... nri-falcon

I can show you this and several other headlines that say this election was not entirely fair. Nobody has said the Venezuelan people are stupid. They are starving and being held on a leash by their president, who uses their hunger and their fear to keep himself in office, while he makes elections go in his favor by rigging. They cannot do anything to change the system, because the system has been turned against them. It is no longer a truly democratic system. It is a sham. You are saying the US is a gang in the form of an administration, but Venezuela’s government is currently ten times worse. And as I said before, there are no perfect heroes in this scenario.

By the way, if we want to talk about democratic processes, the people seem to want Guaido:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SKCN1PI05S
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

They are sick of the poverty, of hyperinflation, or being the rabbits chasing that carrot at the end of a stick. They seem to be aware that Maduro is a continuation of this cycle of fear and hatred, and while Guaido himself has said he is not the perfect solution, the people seem to think he might be the answer they need right now.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... e.amp.html

Here is a good article I read about the messiness of the situation, but essentially, Guaido having American support does not necessarily make him an American puppet. Yes, the Venezuelan people will ultimately decide on their leader. BUT. They may not be able to make the change if Maduro decides he will simply gun-down anyone who opposes him. What do you do when you could possibly have another Tiananmen Square Massacre on your hands? Just let it play out?

[Cedoria]

If they want to overthrow the Maduro government in the name of compassion, go get the forces together and do it. But if you honestly think that your compassion will matter Jack crap if they invade Venezuela well, I have a bridge in Manhattan to sell you, very strong and sturdy, for a low, low price.

Once you support a policy proposed by someone else, they control it's outcomes, not you. If you want US action on this, you're putting it, and Venezuela in the hands of a gang in the form of an administration. If you're comfortable with that, fine, but be aware that's what you're doing.

Personally, I have more faith in the Venezuelan people to elect their leaders and remove ones they dislike as they choose without foreign help. I don't for a second buy the claims of those who would have you believe Venezuelans are just too damn stupid to elect the candidate that the oligarchs have chosen for them damnit!

If the US wants to really embrace the anti-globalist path it's President now preaches, it's time it walked the walk in its own actions, and let Venezuelans settle their issues without coercion or sabotage.

That's not how power ad government works. *facepalm*

I'll talk tomorrow, but, you're saying something very uneducated.

For now, sleep, just, god, GOD, that's so uneducated and stupid.

I'm perfectly aware of how such things work. And no doubt if you had better ideas, you'd explain them instead of wasting your time by calling me stupid.

[Cedoria]

If they want to overthrow the Maduro government in the name of compassion, go get the forces together and do it. But if you honestly think that your compassion will matter Jack crap if they invade Venezuela well, I have a bridge in Manhattan to sell you, very strong and sturdy, for a low, low price.

Once you support a policy proposed by someone else, they control it's outcomes, not you. If you want US action on this, you're putting it, and Venezuela in the hands of a gang in the form of an administration. If you're comfortable with that, fine, but be aware that's what you're doing.

Personally, I have more faith in the Venezuelan people to elect their leaders and remove ones they dislike as they choose without foreign help. I don't for a second buy the claims of those who would have you believe Venezuelans are just too damn stupid to elect the candidate that the oligarchs have chosen for them damnit!

If the US wants to really embrace the anti-globalist path it's President now preaches, it's time it walked the walk in its own actions, and let Venezuelans settle their issues without coercion or sabotage.

I know you think I am probably naive. That’s nothing new, most people in my life have said at some point that I’m naive. The problem is the Venezuelan people cannot help themselves. They’re not stupid, the election was not democratic, and most Venezuelans were aware of this when he got elected:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... nri-falcon

I can show you this and several other headlines that say this election was not entirely fair. Nobody has said the Venezuelan people are stupid. They are starving and being held on a leash by their president, who uses their hunger and their fear to keep himself in office, while he makes elections go in his favor by rigging. They cannot do anything to change the system, because the system has been turned against them. It is no longer a truly democratic system. It is a sham. You are saying the US is a gang in the form of an administration, but Venezuela’s government is currently ten times worse. And as I said before, there are no perfect heroes in this scenario.

By the way, if we want to talk about democratic processes, the people seem to want Guaido:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SKCN1PI05S
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

They are sick of the poverty, of hyperinflation, or being the rabbits chasing that carrot at the end of a stick. They seem to be aware that Maduro is a continuation of this cycle of fear and hatred, and while Guaido himself has said he is not the perfect solution, the people seem to think he might be the answer they need right now.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... e.amp.html

Here is a good article I read about the messiness of the situation, but essentially, Guaido having American support does not necessarily make him an American puppet. Yes, the Venezuelan people will ultimately decide on their leader. BUT. They may not be able to make the change if Maduro decides he will simply gun-down anyone who opposes him. What do you do when you could possibly have another Tiananmen Square Massacre on your hands? Just let it play out?

No. You support solidarity and self-determination, not try to flood the country with weapons and install a back-door puppet government via illegal seizure of military power.

In other words, do everything not what the Venezuelan opposition and its paymasters have been doing for years now. Coups and attempted assassinations have been their methods for years now. Can you see a democracy being born from a guy whose first act after declaring himself President is calling for a foreign invasion to perpetuate himself in power? Come on Lum, I KNOW you're not silly enough to believe that.

And of course US and other UK news sources say the election was illegitimate, their preferred candidate lost, that's my exact point. Actual evidence, on the other hand.

[Longweather]

I know you think I am probably naive. That’s nothing new, most people in my life have said at some point that I’m naive. The problem is the Venezuelan people cannot help themselves. They’re not stupid, the election was not democratic, and most Venezuelans were aware of this when he got elected:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... nri-falcon

I can show you this and several other headlines that say this election was not entirely fair. Nobody has said the Venezuelan people are stupid. They are starving and being held on a leash by their president, who uses their hunger and their fear to keep himself in office, while he makes elections go in his favor by rigging. They cannot do anything to change the system, because the system has been turned against them. It is no longer a truly democratic system. It is a sham. You are saying the US is a gang in the form of an administration, but Venezuela’s government is currently ten times worse. And as I said before, there are no perfect heroes in this scenario.

By the way, if we want to talk about democratic processes, the people seem to want Guaido:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SKCN1PI05S
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

They are sick of the poverty, of hyperinflation, or being the rabbits chasing that carrot at the end of a stick. They seem to be aware that Maduro is a continuation of this cycle of fear and hatred, and while Guaido himself has said he is not the perfect solution, the people seem to think he might be the answer they need right now.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... e.amp.html

Here is a good article I read about the messiness of the situation, but essentially, Guaido having American support does not necessarily make him an American puppet. Yes, the Venezuelan people will ultimately decide on their leader. BUT. They may not be able to make the change if Maduro decides he will simply gun-down anyone who opposes him. What do you do when you could possibly have another Tiananmen Square Massacre on your hands? Just let it play out?

No. You support solidarity and self-determination, not try to flood the country with weapons and install a back-door puppet government via illegal seizure of military power.

In other words, do everything not what the Venezuelan opposition and its paymasters have been doing for years now. Coups and attempted assassinations have been their methods for years now. Can you see a democracy being born from a guy whose first act after declaring himself President is calling for a foreign invasion to perpetuate himself in power? Come on Lum, I KNOW you're not silly enough to believe that.

And of course US and other UK news sources say the election was illegitimate, their preferred candidate lost, that's my exact point. Actual evidence, on the other hand.

You keep mentioning sources and evidence, but you've yet to produce any. Do you have anything to show that Venezuela's presidential election in 2018 was truly legitimate? Between the low voter turnout out, the date being moved months ahead of time, exclusion of opposition parties, claims of votes being bought or gained by intimidation, and steps in the electoral process shortened or ignored, it seems like they're not terribly legitimate. In fact, it all sounds like the sham elections certain dictatorships have to attempt to legitimize their regimes.

Also, you never provided a source about UN aid getting through to Venezuela.

[Cedoria]

No. You support solidarity and self-determination, not try to flood the country with weapons and install a back-door puppet government via illegal seizure of military power.

In other words, do everything not what the Venezuelan opposition and its paymasters have been doing for years now. Coups and attempted assassinations have been their methods for years now. Can you see a democracy being born from a guy whose first act after declaring himself President is calling for a foreign invasion to perpetuate himself in power? Come on Lum, I KNOW you're not silly enough to believe that.

And of course US and other UK news sources say the election was illegitimate, their preferred candidate lost, that's my exact point. Actual evidence, on the other hand.

You keep mentioning sources and evidence, but you've yet to produce any. Do you have anything to show that Venezuela's presidential election in 2018 was truly legitimate? Between the low voter turnout out, the date being moved months ahead of time, exclusion of opposition parties, claims of votes being bought or gained by intimidation, and steps in the electoral process shortened or ignored, it seems like they're not terribly legitimate. In fact, it all sounds like the sham elections certain dictatorships have to attempt to legitimize their regimes.

Also, you never provided a source about UN aid getting through to Venezuela.

I never said they were legitimate, I said no concentrated proof from impartial sources have yet proven they were not. I'm not the one advocating for forced invasion and occupation of another nation. If you are, you'd better be damned sure you've got the facts right. I am not required to prove a negative.


Apparently some UN aid arrived quite recently, though not enough. Easing of sanctions and US support for the UN initiative inside of covert arms smuggling to the opposition would like expedite the process.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4f4ZKiPPFo

[Special Aromas]

I know you think I am probably naive. That’s nothing new, most people in my life have said at some point that I’m naive. The problem is the Venezuelan people cannot help themselves. They’re not stupid, the election was not democratic, and most Venezuelans were aware of this when he got elected:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.thegua ... nri-falcon

I can show you this and several other headlines that say this election was not entirely fair. Nobody has said the Venezuelan people are stupid. They are starving and being held on a leash by their president, who uses their hunger and their fear to keep himself in office, while he makes elections go in his favor by rigging. They cannot do anything to change the system, because the system has been turned against them. It is no longer a truly democratic system. It is a sham. You are saying the US is a gang in the form of an administration, but Venezuela’s government is currently ten times worse. And as I said before, there are no perfect heroes in this scenario.

By the way, if we want to talk about democratic processes, the people seem to want Guaido:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/mobile.reu ... SKCN1PI05S
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.co ... index.html

They are sick of the poverty, of hyperinflation, or being the rabbits chasing that carrot at the end of a stick. They seem to be aware that Maduro is a continuation of this cycle of fear and hatred, and while Guaido himself has said he is not the perfect solution, the people seem to think he might be the answer they need right now.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytime ... e.amp.html

Here is a good article I read about the messiness of the situation, but essentially, Guaido having American support does not necessarily make him an American puppet. Yes, the Venezuelan people will ultimately decide on their leader. BUT. They may not be able to make the change if Maduro decides he will simply gun-down anyone who opposes him. What do you do when you could possibly have another Tiananmen Square Massacre on your hands? Just let it play out?

No. You support solidarity and self-determination, not try to flood the country with weapons and install a back-door puppet government via illegal seizure of military power.

In other words, do everything not what the Venezuelan opposition and its paymasters have been doing for years now. Coups and attempted assassinations have been their methods for years now. Can you see a democracy being born from a guy whose first act after declaring himself President is calling for a foreign invasion to perpetuate himself in power? Come on Lum, I KNOW you're not silly enough to believe that.

And of course US and other UK news sources say the election was illegitimate, their preferred candidate lost, that's my exact point. Actual evidence, on the other hand.

As in, do you want actual evidence that the most prominent political opponents were barred from running and were actually in prison at the time of the vote? Because that's quite easy to prove, take your pick:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42304594
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKBN1FC2OG
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/venezuela ... -1.4688205
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -38-others

[Longweather]

You keep mentioning sources and evidence, but you've yet to produce any. Do you have anything to show that Venezuela's presidential election in 2018 was truly legitimate? Between the low voter turnout out, the date being moved months ahead of time, exclusion of opposition parties, claims of votes being bought or gained by intimidation, and steps in the electoral process shortened or ignored, it seems like they're not terribly legitimate. In fact, it all sounds like the sham elections certain dictatorships have to attempt to legitimize their regimes.

Also, you never provided a source about UN aid getting through to Venezuela.

I never said they were legitimate, I said no concentrated proof from impartial sources have yet proven they were not. I'm not the one advocating for forced invasion and occupation of another nation. If you are, you'd better be damned sure you've got the facts right. I am not required to prove a negative.


Apparently some UN aid arrived quite recently, though not enough. Easing of sanctions and US support for the UN initiative inside of covert arms smuggling to the opposition would like expedite the process.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4f4ZKiPPFo

So what you implied about "actual evidence" wasn't asserting the evidence shows the vote was legitimate, but that there wasn't actual evidence to show it was illegitimate? This despite the numerous and documented shenanigans that have been reported since before the elections?

Also, you video doesn't show that Maduro's troops are allowing the UN aid in. It shows his forces trying to prevent aid from getting in and clashing with protestors. I will ask again. Do you have any actual sources to prove that Maduro's or his troops are allowing specifically UN aid in to reach the people?

[Cedoria]

I never said they were legitimate, I said no concentrated proof from impartial sources have yet proven they were not. I'm not the one advocating for forced invasion and occupation of another nation. If you are, you'd better be damned sure you've got the facts right. I am not required to prove a negative.


Apparently some UN aid arrived quite recently, though not enough. Easing of sanctions and US support for the UN initiative inside of covert arms smuggling to the opposition would like expedite the process.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=q4f4ZKiPPFo

So what you implied about "actual evidence" wasn't asserting the evidence shows the vote was legitimate, but that there wasn't actual evidence to show it was illegitimate? This despite the numerous and documented shenanigans that have been reported since before the elections?

Also, you video doesn't show that Maduro's troops are allowing the UN aid in. It shows his forces trying to prevent aid from getting in and clashing with protestors. I will ask again. Do you have any actual sources to prove that Maduro's or his troops are allowing specifically UN aid in to reach the people?

It's not about whether they 'allow' it, but whether it is reaching the people in question. I don't give a fig for whether it's allowed by anyone. The source so far indicates some aid is arriving and reaching people, though not enough, given the state of extensive economic warfare being conducted on the country.

No. You support solidarity and self-determination, not try to flood the country with weapons and install a back-door puppet government via illegal seizure of military power.

In other words, do everything not what the Venezuelan opposition and its paymasters have been doing for years now. Coups and attempted assassinations have been their methods for years now. Can you see a democracy being born from a guy whose first act after declaring himself President is calling for a foreign invasion to perpetuate himself in power? Come on Lum, I KNOW you're not silly enough to believe that.

And of course US and other UK news sources say the election was illegitimate, their preferred candidate lost, that's my exact point. Actual evidence, on the other hand.

As in, do you want actual evidence that the most prominent political opponents were barred from running and were actually in prison at the time of the vote? Because that's quite easy to prove, take your pick:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42304594
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-vene ... SKBN1FC2OG
https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/venezuela ... -1.4688205
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -38-others

Thank you for those sources, will read them all when I awake tomorrow. Do you think the solution to the problem mandates US intervention, bearing in mind the absolutely miserable record of any such interventions at producing any form of stable democracy anywhere in Latin America?

[Longweather]

So what you implied about "actual evidence" wasn't asserting the evidence shows the vote was legitimate, but that there wasn't actual evidence to show it was illegitimate? This despite the numerous and documented shenanigans that have been reported since before the elections?

Also, you video doesn't show that Maduro's troops are allowing the UN aid in. It shows his forces trying to prevent aid from getting in and clashing with protestors. I will ask again. Do you have any actual sources to prove that Maduro's or his troops are allowing specifically UN aid in to reach the people?

It's not about whether they 'allow' it, but whether it is reaching the people in question. I don't give a fig for whether it's allowed by anyone. The source so far indicates some aid is arriving and reaching people, though not enough, given the state of extensive economic warfare being conducted on the country.

Again, your source doesn't show it reaching people. It shows and describes the aid being blocked by the military. Nowhere does it show the UN aid getting through like you have claimed earlier in this thread. All you've shown with your sources is that there have been attempts to get aid through to the Venezualan people, but it has been stopped along the border by Maduro's military.

[Cedoria]

It's not about whether they 'allow' it, but whether it is reaching the people in question. I don't give a fig for whether it's allowed by anyone. The source so far indicates some aid is arriving and reaching people, though not enough, given the state of extensive economic warfare being conducted on the country.

Again, your source doesn't show it reaching people. It shows and describes the aid being blocked by the military. Nowhere does it show the UN aid getting through like you have claimed earlier in this thread. All you've shown with your sources is that there have been attempts to get aid through to the Venezualan people, but it has been stopped along the border by Maduro's military.

And the question I ask hangs in the air unanswered, why is there a presumption that US intervention will be of benefit to anybody involved? No such intervention has ever brought democracy in Latin America, and frequently has had the opposite effect, the public by and large don't seem to want it, given how they reacted to the last coup attempt on a Venezuelan President and frankly, an operation in support of a person who has never contested, let alone won a democratic election, and whose first act after declaring himself President with no lawful authority was to call for a military coup and foreign invasion.

Yeah. Call me entirely skeptical about this. Frankly, If Maduro were any sort of capable despot, any opponent who committed this much treason against his country would have been arrested already, heck, any democratic nation would arrest somebody who did that. His opponent in the last election got to call him a 'hunger candidate' in a 35 minute speech broadcast on state TV for crying out loud. Despot? Not really, inept at best, and corrupt at worse, but still not any proof the Venezuelan opposition has any interest in any kind of democracy, except the usual stump speeches of US partisans.

[Novus America]

Again, your source doesn't show it reaching people. It shows and describes the aid being blocked by the military. Nowhere does it show the UN aid getting through like you have claimed earlier in this thread. All you've shown with your sources is that there have been attempts to get aid through to the Venezualan people, but it has been stopped along the border by Maduro's military.

And the question I ask hangs in the air unanswered, why is there a presumption that US intervention will be of benefit to anybody involved? No such intervention has ever brought democracy in Latin America, and frequently has had the opposite effect, the public by and large don't seem to want it, given how they reacted to the last coup attempt on a Venezuelan President and frankly, an operation in support of a person who has never contested, let alone won a democratic election, and whose first act after declaring himself President with no lawful authority was to call for a military coup and foreign invasion.

Yeah. Call me entirely skeptical about this. Frankly, If Maduro were any sort of capable despot, any opponent who committed this much treason against his country would have been arrested already, heck, any democratic nation would arrest somebody who did that. His opponent in the last election got to call him a 'hunger candidate' in a 35 minute speech broadcast on state TV for crying out loud. Despot? Not really, inept at best, and corrupt at worse, but still not any proof the Venezuelan opposition has any interest in any kind of democracy, except the usual stump speeches of US partisans.

Umm our Panama intervention resulted in democracy.
And yes Madurai is completely inept. That is the problem. He is destroying Venezuela.
Something that cannot be denied.
Really anything is better than the current regime.

And there is plenty of reasons to believe the opposition has interest in Democracy.
Again see the 2015 elections which the Madurai regime lost, and just ignored.

[Cedoria]

And the question I ask hangs in the air unanswered, why is there a presumption that US intervention will be of benefit to anybody involved? No such intervention has ever brought democracy in Latin America, and frequently has had the opposite effect, the public by and large don't seem to want it, given how they reacted to the last coup attempt on a Venezuelan President and frankly, an operation in support of a person who has never contested, let alone won a democratic election, and whose first act after declaring himself President with no lawful authority was to call for a military coup and foreign invasion.

Yeah. Call me entirely skeptical about this. Frankly, If Maduro were any sort of capable despot, any opponent who committed this much treason against his country would have been arrested already, heck, any democratic nation would arrest somebody who did that. His opponent in the last election got to call him a 'hunger candidate' in a 35 minute speech broadcast on state TV for crying out loud. Despot? Not really, inept at best, and corrupt at worse, but still not any proof the Venezuelan opposition has any interest in any kind of democracy, except the usual stump speeches of US partisans.

Umm our Panama intervention resulted in democracy.
And yes Madurai is completely inept. That is the problem. He is destroying Venezuela.
Something that cannot be denied.
Really anything is better than the current regime.

And there is plenty of reasons to believe the opposition has interest in Democracy.
Again see the 2015 elections which the Madurai regime lost, and just ignored.

There are no reasons to believe the opposition has any interest in democracy whatsoever when it's tactics since 2002 have essentially been to sponsor a coup or foreign invasion, or in recent times, outright assassination via drone murder. These are not the tactics of democrats.

Saying anything is better then the current regime is easy when you won't have to live with the consequence of whatever hellish death squad puppet will be thrown in if the country is invaded. And ten years from now, we could have this same discussion again, with you insisting that the Venezuela thing was an abberation and the next war will totally bring democracy in this country this time. Please.

Get over it, Venezuela is not a US plaything, and it's issues, such as they are, must be solved internally. We came up with concepts of national self-determination for very good reasons. I know the US hasn't a lot of interest in such things when it doesn't directly apply to itself, but at least go ahead and admit you are utterly shanking your own principles by participating in this shambolic attempt at a coup.

And Panama was a thuggish operation which needlessly butchered a few thousand people to capture one minor thug who was charged for crimes he committed while on your payroll. If that's your example of a successful and well-intended intervention, it's utterly pathetic. Especially when you consider the publicly expressed reason for the intervention (Noriega beginning to explore ties to Castro. In other words, nothing to do with actual democracy).


This one example beings our best is testament to the whole sheer foolishness of the regime change crowd, this time will be different they say, and have to keep on saying every time when they are wrong.


A five minute glance at the history of the entire region shows you why the US should stay home. Grow up and let others sort out their own problems without economic warfare for a change.

[Longweather]

Again, your source doesn't show it reaching people. It shows and describes the aid being blocked by the military. Nowhere does it show the UN aid getting through like you have claimed earlier in this thread. All you've shown with your sources is that there have been attempts to get aid through to the Venezualan people, but it has been stopped along the border by Maduro's military.

And the question I ask hangs in the air unanswered, why is there a presumption that US intervention will be of benefit to anybody involved? No such intervention has ever brought democracy in Latin America, and frequently has had the opposite effect, the public by and large don't seem to want it, given how they reacted to the last coup attempt on a Venezuelan President and frankly, an operation in support of a person who has never contested, let alone won a democratic election, and whose first act after declaring himself President with no lawful authority was to call for a military coup and foreign invasion.

Yeah. Call me entirely skeptical about this. Frankly, If Maduro were any sort of capable despot, any opponent who committed this much treason against his country would have been arrested already, heck, any democratic nation would arrest somebody who did that. His opponent in the last election got to call him a 'hunger candidate' in a 35 minute speech broadcast on state TV for crying out loud. Despot? Not really, inept at best, and corrupt at worse, but still not any proof the Venezuelan opposition has any interest in any kind of democracy, except the usual stump speeches of US partisans.

So, you're deflecting requests for sources. Got it.

Though I will say that the sources I found myself about the UN and UNICEF sending aid has been scarce. It's just one-off articles saying they've sent money and supplies. There's no pictures, evidence, or third-party collaboration that this is the case or that it's actually reaching those in need. Not even from pro-Maduro sources. It's all citations to one Reuters article and a page from UNICEF that I translated to English.

[SD_Film Artists]

Umm our Panama intervention resulted in democracy.
And yes Madurai is completely inept. That is the problem. He is destroying Venezuela.
Something that cannot be denied.
Really anything is better than the current regime.

And there is plenty of reasons to believe the opposition has interest in Democracy.
Again see the 2015 elections which the Madurai regime lost, and just ignored.

There are no reasons to believe the opposition has any interest in democracy whatsoever when it's tactics since 2002 have essentially been to sponsor a coup or foreign invasion, or in recent times, outright assassination via drone murder. These are not the tactics of democrats.

Saying anything is better then the current regime is easy when you won't have to live with the consequence of whatever hellish death squad puppet will be thrown in if the country is invaded. And ten years from now, we could have this same discussion again, with you insisting that the Venezuela thing was an abberation and the next war will totally bring democracy in this country this time. Please.

Get over it, Venezuela is not a US plaything, and it's issues, such as they are, must be solved internally. We came up with concepts of national self-determination for very good reasons. I know the US hasn't a lot of interest in such things when it doesn't directly apply to itself, but at least go ahead and admit you are utterly shanking your own principles by participating in this shambolic attempt at a coup.

It's easy for Muduro to hold rallies for "peace" when that involves keeping him in the presidency for the foreseeable future. I wonder if he'd be so peace-loving if it came with the condition of a new election.

And how can there be self-determination if the Venezuelans aren't allowed a proper election? If you're going to support a dictatorship then you might as well be honest about it rather than pretending it has anything to do with Venezuelans' freedom.

[Cedoria]

There are no reasons to believe the opposition has any interest in democracy whatsoever when it's tactics since 2002 have essentially been to sponsor a coup or foreign invasion, or in recent times, outright assassination via drone murder. These are not the tactics of democrats.

Saying anything is better then the current regime is easy when you won't have to live with the consequence of whatever hellish death squad puppet will be thrown in if the country is invaded. And ten years from now, we could have this same discussion again, with you insisting that the Venezuela thing was an abberation and the next war will totally bring democracy in this country this time. Please.

Get over it, Venezuela is not a US plaything, and it's issues, such as they are, must be solved internally. We came up with concepts of national self-determination for very good reasons. I know the US hasn't a lot of interest in such things when it doesn't directly apply to itself, but at least go ahead and admit you are utterly shanking your own principles by participating in this shambolic attempt at a coup.

It's easy for Muduro to hold rallies for "peace" when that involves keeping him in the presidency for the foreseeable future. I wonder if he'd be so peace-loving if it came with the condition of a new election.

And how can there be self-determination if the Venezuelans aren't allowed a proper election? If you're going to support a dictatorship then you might as well be honest about it rather than pretending it has anything to do with Venezuelans' freedom.

As might you, who openly call for coups and invasions.

To be frank, I have no idea what Maduro would do in such circumstance, nor do I really care. I don't really care if he stays in power, so long as he's removed by the will of his people, not by a military force armed and financed by a superpower that's been conducting literal economic warfare on the country for almost two decades now.

I mean, if my record on that were as bad as that, I'd be a little embarrassed to declare myself on democracy's side. I am pleased that your sense of shame is not so acute, though perhaps it's moral principles that need adjusting.

Come back and blather at me about supporting democracy when you're not supporting people who've openly called for violent coups, and already attempted drone murder as well as exacerbated the poverty and deprivation by sanctions and prior withholding of aid. Until then, I'm quite as comfortable in my conviction as I am in ignoring the silliness of yours. By your own logic, you're supporting a dictatorship as well, if merely one you favour.

[Novus America]

Umm our Panama intervention resulted in democracy.
And yes Madurai is completely inept. That is the problem. He is destroying Venezuela.
Something that cannot be denied.
Really anything is better than the current regime.

And there is plenty of reasons to believe the opposition has interest in Democracy.
Again see the 2015 elections which the Madurai regime lost, and just ignored.

There are no reasons to believe the opposition has any interest in democracy whatsoever when it's tactics since 2002 have essentially been to sponsor a coup or foreign invasion, or in recent times, outright assassination via drone murder. These are not the tactics of democrats.

Saying anything is better then the current regime is easy when you won't have to live with the consequence of whatever hellish death squad puppet will be thrown in if the country is invaded. And ten years from now, we could have this same discussion again, with you insisting that the Venezuela thing was an abberation and the next war will totally bring democracy in this country this time. Please.

Get over it, Venezuela is not a US plaything, and it's issues, such as they are, must be solved internally. We came up with concepts of national self-determination for very good reasons. I know the US hasn't a lot of interest in such things when it doesn't directly apply to itself, but at least go ahead and admit you are utterly shanking your own principles by participating in this shambolic attempt at a coup.

And Panama was a thuggish operation which needlessly butchered a few thousand people to capture one minor thug who was charged for crimes he committed while on your payroll. If that's your example of a successful and well-intended intervention, it's utterly pathetic. Especially when you consider the publicly expressed reason for the intervention (Noriega beginning to explore ties to Castro. In other words, nothing to do with actual democracy).


This one example beings our best is testament to the whole sheer foolishness of the regime change crowd, this time will be different they say, and have to keep on saying every time when they are wrong.


A five minute glance at the history of the entire region shows you why the US should stay home. Grow up and let others sort out their own problems without economic warfare for a change.

Not everyone in opposition to Maduro is a hive mind.
Again stop deflecting and explain the 2015 Parliamentary elections.

Shifting the goal posts. Panama became a successful democracy after we removed Noriega.
Proving your “interventions never create Democracy claim was false.

It cannot solve its problems purely internally, when soldiers shoot people for wanting food, Parliamentary elections suspended, and there is massive Russian, Chinese and Cuban involvement.

We cannot just abandon the region to our enemies.

I am not in favor of an invasion. But the idea we should just stand back and do nothing while our enemies do things is absurd.

And just leaving people to starve raises many other issues.

[Rezmaeristan]

Does anyone else think the VZ military's effort to keep aid out will be a catalyst for war? All those people massed at the border, there's going to be some conflict.

[Digital Planets]

Does anyone else think the VZ military's effort to keep aid out will be a catalyst for war? All those people massed at the border, there's going to be some conflict.

Nah, they'd rather wait until they lose at soccer first then go to war.

[Rezmaeristan]

Does anyone else think the VZ military's effort to keep aid out will be a catalyst for war? All those people massed at the border, there's going to be some conflict.

Nah, they'd rather wait until they lose at soccer first then go to war.

You saw OverSimplified's Soccer War video didn't you?


Anyway, they play Brazil in June. That's gonna be it, folks. After Brazil kicks Venezuela's butt, Venezuelans will go nuts and zerg rush the Brazilian border. They'll get shot at by their own police and soldiers trying to stop them leaving, which will lead to Brazil stepping in to protect them. And then... War.

[SD_Film Artists]

It's easy for Muduro to hold rallies for "peace" when that involves keeping him in the presidency for the foreseeable future. I wonder if he'd be so peace-loving if it came with the condition of a new election.

And how can there be self-determination if the Venezuelans aren't allowed a proper election? If you're going to support a dictatorship then you might as well be honest about it rather than pretending it has anything to do with Venezuelans' freedom.

As might you, who openly call for coups and invasions.

I never said that a military invasion is the 1st choice. Even if I did say that, I don't see how that equates to supporting dictators as Guaidó is calling for democratic elections and has been acting in accordance with the constitution.

To be frank, I have no idea what Maduro would do in such circumstance

You already do know, as that's the reality now. He could challenge Guaidó in an internationally observed election with the likely chance that there would be peace afterwards, but instead he chooses to cling on to power whatever the cost while crying crocodile tears about "free Venezuala".

nor do I really care. I don't really care if he stays in power, so long as he's removed by the will of his people, not by a military force armed and financed by a superpower that's been conducting literal economic warfare on the country for almost two decades now.

The "will of his people" will be getting a raw deal without foreign help, as currently the Venezuelan people can't change things democratically since they don't have a real vote, and they can't change things forcibly as most of the army is supporting Maduro. So you're basically saying- 'The best way is that the people solve this internally..just as long as they don't have any means to do so."

As for "economic warfare on the country" I think Maduro/Chavez have been doing that well enough themselves.

I mean, if my record on that were as bad as that, I'd be a little embarrassed to declare myself on democracy's side. I am pleased that your sense of shame is not so acute, though perhaps it's moral principles that need adjusting.

Would you care to explain what I should be ashamed of?

Come back and blather at me

I believe that I've been quite clear. Infact on this forum I edit my posts almost to the point of OCD. If you think that I was unclear about something then I'd be happy to hear what that was.

about supporting democracy when you're not supporting people who've openly called for violent coups, and already attempted drone murder as well as exacerbated the poverty and deprivation by sanctions and prior withholding of aid. Until then, I'm quite as comfortable in my conviction as I am in ignoring the silliness of yours. By your own logic, you're supporting a dictatorship as well, if merely one you favour.

Which dictatorship is that? Do you mean the guy who's acting in accordance with the constitution and is calling for immediate and (presumably) fair elections?