La Crisis Venezolana: The Crisis in Venezuela

[ShakaZuli]

[

I am not going to derail the thread by getting into the details of what happened in Ukraine.

Umm so basically only Russia and Cuba have the right to be involved in other countries?
You support anti US interventions but say the US has no right to intervene?

And the US is absolutely supporting a liberation movement in Venezuela.
The US is a sovereign country supporting a liberation movement here.

And you seem to be quite favorable to Marxism as long as it claims to be anti American.

You dont understand the differnce what China/Russia/Cuba are doing with what the US. The later will force the Venezuelan opposition to sell their oil to Exxon Mobile, whereas the former are telling Maduro to do what he wishes to do since he is the president. The US opposition gets literary pay check from Washington whereas China/Russia/Cuba are doing Maduro a favor and for free.

You see what happened in Ukraine, Libya, Iraq once they got "democratised". Today thoose countries are worse off than before they become US vassal states. The same will certainly happen to Venezuela. If today Venezuela is in bad conditions, it will certainly become once when Gauido overthrows Maduro.

Now, I dont consider the US to be a souveregn country. There is a certain lobby that controls the US foreign policy. But that is off topic and it will derail the thread.

[ShakaZuli]

Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_int ... _in_Angola

According to your own link apartheid South Africa intervened in Angola after which Cuba did the same. Do you really believe apartheid South Africa would support a black country like Angola? Their intend seems to be malicious.

[The Archregimancy]

Really?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_int ... _in_Angola

According to your own link apartheid South Africa intervened in Angola after which Cuba did the same. Do you really believe apartheid South Africa would support a black country like Angola? Their intend seems to be malicious.

I no more supported the South African intervention in Angola than I supported the Cuban intervention in Angola. Both interventions were 'malicious', no doubt depending on your point of view.

But equally, Cuba clearly did intervene internationally in various attempts to export and or defend its ideology internationally, of which Angola was only one example.

Other examples include Cuban intervention in the 1960s Congo Crisis, Cuban intervention in the Bolivian communist insurgency, Cuba's deployment of over 1,000 troops in the Yom Kippur War, Cuba's deployment of 15,000 troops in the Ethiopian-Somali Ogaden war in the 1970s, and Cuba's support for the pro-Cuban communist forces in El Salvador and Nicaragua in the 1970s and 1980s.

It would, in fact, be difficult to think of any Western Hemisphere nation, other than the United States, that was more directly involved in attempting to export and support its primary political ideology in the post-war era than Cuba.

[ShakaZuli]

I no more supported the South African intervention in Angola than I supported the Cuban intervention in Angola. Both interventions were 'malicious', no doubt depending on your point of view. in various attempts to export and or defend its ideology internationally, of which Angola was only one example.

Oh, so there is no difference to you between apartheid South Africa and communist Cuba. That trivializes the system of apartheid and sounds very racist, dont you think?

[The Archregimancy]

I no more supported the South African intervention in Angola than I supported the Cuban intervention in Angola. Both interventions were 'malicious', no doubt depending on your point of view. in various attempts to export and or defend its ideology internationally, of which Angola was only one example.

Oh, so there is no difference to you between apartheid South Africa and communist Cuba. That trivializes the system of apartheid and sounds very racist, dont you think?

That's not remotely my argument. I'm not going to waste my time replying to posts that clearly don't understand the point I'm trying to make; especially when they misleadingly edit my own posts.

Rest assured that I fully intend to do you the courtesy of not replying further to your posts unless they in turn do me the courtesy of addressing the actual point I'm making.

[The Archregimancy]

The number of deserters from Venezuelan security forces on the border is increasing - though realistically still not at anything close to a tipping point.

And Maduro has severed diplomatic ties with Colombia.

Colombia has argued in return that you can't break off diplomatic ties with a country that doesn't recognise your government to begin with, and which doesn't even have an ambassador in Caracas.

Colombia's Vice-President Marta Lucia Ramirez:

Querida @patriciajaniot Maduro no puede romper relaciones diplomáticas que Colombia no tiene con él. Nuestro gobierno no ha nombrado embajador allá ni reconocemos embajador de Maduro pues su mandato terminó el 9 de enero. Es un simple dictador que ocupa por la fuerza Miraflores

https://twitter.com/mluciaramirez/statu ... 4621455360

[US-SSR]

Apparently you can just "declare yourself president" now. How convinient

The Guaido faction's position is that Maduro, having failed to hold fair elections, essentialy usurped the Presidency. Under Venezuela's constitution, in those circumstances the National Assembly can declare the presidency vacant, after which the Assembly president (Guaido) becomes Interim President of the nation and must call elections within 30 days.

Be that as it may we are well past the point where the future government of Venezuela is going to be determined by who has the better argument according to the Venezuelan constitution or any other legalistic standard. Diplomatic and economic pressure is being brought to bear that imo most likely will result eventually in either a military-brokered transfer of power away from the Maduro regime or some kind of internationally-supervised and/or monitored elections. How long that will take and what the toll of suffering among the innocent people of Venezuela will be in the meantime I cannot say.

The next significant move may be a legal challenge on the part of the Maduro regime to the Guaido faction's naming a new PDVSA board. Too bad for the former PDVSA's holding company is incorporated in Delaware and answers to the Venezuelan President which, since the US government recognizes Guaido, probably means a Maduro loss. That means less money to juice the people they have to juice, greater likelihood of those people seeing the value of going over to the Guaido side, etc.

[Yr8iy22r8mtt872]

Maduro isn't a dictator, and never has been. He's won his elections fairly and not censored anything or attacked the opposition as much as he probably should.

Oh sure, and Saddam wasn't a tin-pot dictator who was just mildly racist

You could use literally any other argument other than a vague connection between war crimes against the kurdish and economic Venezuelan turmoil going bad for Maduro.

[Yr8iy22r8mtt872]

[

I am not going to derail the thread by getting into the details of what happened in Ukraine.

Umm so basically only Russia and Cuba have the right to be involved in other countries?
You support anti US interventions but say the US has no right to intervene?

And the US is absolutely supporting a liberation movement in Venezuela.
The US is a sovereign country supporting a liberation movement here.

And you seem to be quite favorable to Marxism as long as it claims to be anti American.

You dont understand the differnce what China/Russia/Cuba are doing with what the US. The later will force the Venezuelan opposition to sell their oil to Exxon Mobile, whereas the former are telling Maduro to do what he wishes to do since he is the president. The US opposition gets literary pay check from Washington whereas China/Russia/Cuba are doing Maduro a favor and for free.

You see what happened in Ukraine, Libya, Iraq once they got "democratised". Today thoose countries are worse off than before they become US vassal states. The same will certainly happen to Venezuela. If today Venezuela is in bad conditions, it will certainly become once when Gauido overthrows Maduro.

Now, I dont consider the US to be a souveregn country. There is a certain lobby that controls the US foreign policy. But that is off topic and it will derail the thread.

Lololol yeah China totally doesn't want to get paid back from it's investments cuz they are the good guys, but I'll show less bias towards my criticism to America to seem unbiased

[Liriena]

Marco Rubio just tweeted Gaddafi snuff porn because apparently he gets off to the idea of Maduro being dragged through the streets bleeding and getting stabbed to death. Very normal brain.

And no, I'm not linking to that shit.

[Liriena]

Guaido! Guaido! #Guaido2020
Guaido should be President of Venezuela by 2020!

If he's actually elected in free and fair elections? Sure, why not?

Right now, though, he's little more than a wannabe golpista, and even though I'm not a fan of Maduro, I would be mildly satisfied if he imprisoned Guaido for sedition and treason.

[Cerinda]

Marco Rubio just tweeted Gaddafi snuff porn because apparently he gets off to the idea of Maduro being dragged through the streets bleeding and getting stabbed to death. Very normal brain.

And no, I'm not linking to that shit.

I'm pretty sure he and other US Politicians wouldn't mind Venezuela turning into another Libya as long as they get that sweet, sweet oil.

[Cerinda]

I'm pretty sure he and other US Politicians wouldn't mind Venezuela turning into another Libya as long as they get that sweet, sweet oil.

This ISN'T LIBYA!

Stop using such a simplistic, uneducated comparison.

The Geopolitical situation and political structures are different, as is the socioeconomic situation.

Look at context and circumstance. Stop making stupid assumptions.

I never said it was Libya, I said American politicans wouldn't care if Venezuela became another Libya. It's uneducated to think that the US gives a damn about the Venezuelan people when it's just using the situation to further it's power and influence.

[Kubra]

I'm pretty sure he and other US Politicians wouldn't mind Venezuela turning into another Libya as long as they get that sweet, sweet oil.

This ISN'T LIBYA!

Stop using such a simplistic, uneducated comparison.

The Geopolitical situation and political structures are different, as is the socioeconomic situation.

Look at context and circumstance. Stop making stupid assumptions.

ok
So what are the differences

[Proctopeo]

Guaido! Guaido! #Guaido2020
Guaido should be President of Venezuela by 2020!

If he's actually elected in free and fair elections? Sure, why not?

Right now, though, he's little more than a wannabe golpista, and even though I'm not a fan of Maduro, I would be mildly satisfied if he imprisoned Guaido for sedition and treason.

"Venezuelans continuing to starve in horrible conditions under a literal dictator is okay as long as I can dab on those pesky imperialists!"

[Costa Fierro]

Guaido! Guaido! #Guaido2020
Guaido should be President of Venezuela by 2020!

If he's actually elected in free and fair elections? Sure, why not?

Right now, though, he's little more than a wannabe golpista, and even though I'm not a fan of Maduro, I would be mildly satisfied if he imprisoned Guaido for sedition and treason.

Sedition and treason against a president that, constitutionally speaking, shouldn't continue to rule?

[Liriena]

If he's actually elected in free and fair elections? Sure, why not?

Right now, though, he's little more than a wannabe golpista, and even though I'm not a fan of Maduro, I would be mildly satisfied if he imprisoned Guaido for sedition and treason.

Guaido is a Social Democrat, also he's the best chance to avoid another Iraq.

Maduro won a rigged faked election.

Don't fall for tactics used by dictators across the world.

Democracy is impossible with Maduro in power.

There's no real guarantee that there will be democracy if Maduro is violently overthrown, which is what Guaido and his foreign backers are aiming for.

[Liriena]

I'm pretty sure he and other US Politicians wouldn't mind Venezuela turning into another Libya as long as they get that sweet, sweet oil.

This ISN'T LIBYA!

Stop using such a simplistic, uneducated comparison.

The Geopolitical situation and political structures are different, as is the socioeconomic situation.

Look at context and circumstance. Stop making stupid assumptions.

Tell that to Marco Rubio, since he started it.

[Liriena]

If he's actually elected in free and fair elections? Sure, why not?

Right now, though, he's little more than a wannabe golpista, and even though I'm not a fan of Maduro, I would be mildly satisfied if he imprisoned Guaido for sedition and treason.

"Venezuelans continuing to starve in horrible conditions under a literal dictator is okay as long as I can dab on those pesky imperialists!"

Not really.

[Liriena]

If he's actually elected in free and fair elections? Sure, why not?

Right now, though, he's little more than a wannabe golpista, and even though I'm not a fan of Maduro, I would be mildly satisfied if he imprisoned Guaido for sedition and treason.

Sedition and treason against a president that, constitutionally speaking, shouldn't continue to rule?

[shrug]

[Proctopeo]

"Venezuelans continuing to starve in horrible conditions under a literal dictator is okay as long as I can dab on those pesky imperialists!"

Not really.

b r a h
that's in essence what you're saying
When have you last updated your signature, by chance? Looks like you need to move a couple things around into the opposite category.

[Luminesa]

Sedition and treason against a president that, constitutionally speaking, shouldn't continue to rule?

[shrug]

Forget ignoring the social construct that a democratically-elected leader is supposed to adhere to, he's stomped on it until it's died and then has been dancing on its grave. Anyone is better than Maduro at this point. He is literally shooting people at the border to keep them from getting to his own people, who are starving, all because he is desperately trying to hold to power that he refuses to use for the benefit of his own nation.

[Liriena]

Not really.

b r a h
that's in essence what you're saying
When have you last updated your signature, by chance? Looks like you need to move a couple things around into the opposite category.

I really don't see how that's what I'm saying "in essence".

I don't want the Venezuelan people to starve in horrible conditions, nor do I want Maduro to stay in power simply because he's left-wing, but a US-backed coup is the opposite of a solution to that, even if Guaido is a succdem. My stance from the get-go has been that the Venezuelan people should be allowed to solve this crisis on their own terms without anybody else meddling.

[Loben]

b r a h
that's in essence what you're saying
When have you last updated your signature, by chance? Looks like you need to move a couple things around into the opposite category.

I really don't see how that's what I'm saying "in essence".

I don't want the Venezuelan people to starve in horrible conditions, nor do I want Maduro to stay in power simply because he's left-wing, but a US-backed coup is the opposite of a solution to that, even if Guaido is a succdem. My stance from the get-go has been that the Venezuelan people should be allowed to solve this crisis on their own terms without anybody else meddling.

and if solving it on their own terms means civil war?

[Liriena]

[shrug]

Forget ignoring the social construct that a democratically-elected leader is supposed to adhere to, he's stomped on it until it's died and then has been dancing on its grave. Anyone is better than Maduro at this point. He is literally shooting people at the border to keep them from getting to his own people, who are starving, all because he is desperately trying to hold to power that he refuses to use for the benefit of his own nation.

Are you talking about the stuff in the Brazilian border?