Leftist Militias: Should Liberals Be Pro-Second Amendment?

[Imperializt Russia]

And they're much lower than yours.

Here's a fun little exercise you can do. Find Table 11 of the FBI homicide statistics from 2011. I believe this is the breakdown of homicides by weapon used. About 80-90% of murders were by firearm.
Look up the UK homicide stats for the same year. I can't recall the exact number. The US has a homicide rate something in excess of 4 times the UK for that year.

If you completely discount firearm homicides from the US data, the UK and US homicide rates become very close. And the Proportion of homicides by weapon (knife etc) also become very close.

---

The crux is (statistically speaking, of course, this exercise is not remotely practical), the US is as violent as Britain, and then has its gun violence problem slapped on top.

Take out every gun homicide in the US and our homicide rate is still almost double that of England & Wales.

It's almost like there's a complicated ecosystem of socio-economic effects at play here that can't be reduced to a trite "guns r bad".

Yes, they're largely identical socioeconomic and political factors to western Europe.
Americanism is just thrown on top.

[Len Hyet]

Take out every gun homicide in the US and our homicide rate is still almost double that of England & Wales.

It's almost like there's a complicated ecosystem of socio-economic effects at play here that can't be reduced to a trite "guns r bad".

Yes, they're largely identical socioeconomic and political factors to western Europe.
Americanism is just thrown on top.

Oh, I was unaware that Western Europe had an opiod crisis. I didn't know Western Europe had a near total lack of proper mental health care, or that it shared a porus border with a narco-state. Can you elaborate on Western Europe's utter homogeneity, since it's apparently one monolithic block for the purposes of this conversation. How do you feel about the Western European incarceration rate? Does Western Europe have almost 25% of it's youth growing up without fathers, in no small part because of draconian and racist laws from 30 years ago?

God I hate that stupid fucking smug bullshit. "America just needs to do what Europe does lol u stupid Americans".

[Scomagia]

And they're much lower than yours.

Here's a fun little exercise you can do. Find Table 11 of the FBI homicide statistics from 2011. I believe this is the breakdown of homicides by weapon used. About 80-90% of murders were by firearm.
Look up the UK homicide stats for the same year. I can't recall the exact number. The US has a homicide rate something in excess of 4 times the UK for that year.

If you completely discount firearm homicides from the US data, the UK and US homicide rates become very close. And the Proportion of homicides by weapon (knife etc) also become very close.

---

The crux is (statistically speaking, of course, this exercise is not remotely practical), the US is as violent as Britain, and then has its gun violence problem slapped on top.

Take out every gun homicide in the US and our homicide rate is still almost double that of England & Wales.

It's almost like there's a complicated ecosystem of socio-economic effects at play here that can't be reduced to a trite "guns r bad".

Also, an important question about the gun homicide statistics is whether they are including lawful homicide as opposed to just murder. I've seen a lot of fuckery with gun violence numbers including lumping in self defense, suicide, and police homicides without qualification.

[Telconi]

Take out every gun homicide in the US and our homicide rate is still almost double that of England & Wales.

It's almost like there's a complicated ecosystem of socio-economic effects at play here that can't be reduced to a trite "guns r bad".

Yes, they're largely identical socioeconomic and political factors to western Europe.
Americanism is just thrown on top.

As if that's a bad thing.

[Tzonaxiqal]

I'm of the (very generalized) opinion that Leftists should either support gun control or just remove themselves from the debate entirely to focus on organizing and building revolutionary infrastructure. The ones who really want to arm themselves will do so anyway when the time comes, and for the time being lax gun laws only serve to enable and embolden proto-fascist and Dominionist brownshirts, or else exacerbate crime and violence in poor communities.

I believe the same for liberals, but for different reasons.

[Licana]

And they're much lower than yours.

Here's a fun little exercise you can do. Find Table 11 of the FBI homicide statistics from 2011.

I like table 43a personally.

Yes, they're largely identical socioeconomic and political factors to western Europe.
Americanism is just thrown on top.

lulz

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Anyone could shoot you, unless they're like in an iron lung or something.

Or a quadruple amputee.

I reckon a handyman could cook something up for amputees and somebody living in an iron lung.

[Chernoslavia]

So this has become another gun control thread great.

[Bear Stearns]

Everyone should be pro-Second Amendment.

[Internationalist Bastard]

I’m debating making a separate thread about the morality of militias and operating one

[NeoOasis]

Everyone should be pro-Second Amendment.

Why?

[The Liberated Territories]

Civilians should not have access to guns. Only the police and military should be allowed firearms.

What is so special about the police and military that makes them capable to use arms?

[Settrah]

I'm of the (very generalized) opinion that Leftists should either support gun control or just remove themselves from the debate entirely to focus on organizing and building revolutionary infrastructure. The ones who really want to arm themselves will do so anyway when the time comes, and for the time being lax gun laws only serve to enable and embolden proto-fascist and Dominionist brownshirts, or else exacerbate crime and violence in poor communities.

I believe the same for liberals, but for different reasons.

I'm not a leftist, but if I was then this would seen to me like the only logical answer to ensure crushing capitalism. Because if you're lax or neutral in a conflict, you might as well side with the enemy.

That is if I was hypothetically actually serious about wanting the anti-capitalism that I would preach.

[Imperializt Russia]

Yes, they're largely identical socioeconomic and political factors to western Europe.
Americanism is just thrown on top.

Oh, I was unaware that Western Europe had an opiod crisis. I didn't know Western Europe had a near total lack of proper mental health care, or that it shared a porus border with a narco-state. Can you elaborate on Western Europe's utter homogeneity, since it's apparently one monolithic block for the purposes of this conversation. How do you feel about the Western European incarceration rate? Does Western Europe have almost 25% of it's youth growing up without fathers, in no small part because of draconian and racist laws from 30 years ago?

You see? The more you know. You can quibble percentage points all you like, but these problems all exist in western Europe. And yes, western Europe is more or less homogeneous these days, which is why it is distinct from eastern Europe (where several of these issues are markedly worse, country depending).

[Ors Might]

We had a revolutionary war explicitly so we wouldn’t have to care what the Brits think. It’s my god given right as an American to tell all hot tea drinkers to jump into the river.

In all seriousness, it’s getting irritating when people hold up Britain and Australia as evidence that gun control works while ignoring the the fact that their rates of violence were already on the decline when they restricted access to guns.

And they're much lower than yours.

Here's a fun little exercise you can do. Find Table 11 of the FBI homicide statistics from 2011. I believe this is the breakdown of homicides by weapon used. About 80-90% of murders were by firearm.
Look up the UK homicide stats for the same year. I can't recall the exact number. The US has a homicide rate something in excess of 4 times the UK for that year.

If you completely discount firearm homicides from the US data, the UK and US homicide rates become very close. And the Proportion of homicides by weapon (knife etc) also become very close.

---

The crux is (statistically speaking, of course, this exercise is not remotely practical), the US is as violent as Britain, and then has its gun violence problem slapped on top.

I looked up the data and confirmed the stat you provided. The problem is that I can’t find a breakdown on the causes of those particular homicides. Whether they were crimes of passion or gang related, those things. If the majority are the latter, then I don’t think the difference between the UK and the US can be boiled fown to a simple matter of how many guns they have.

[Tobleste]

Civilians should not have access to guns. Only the police and military should be allowed firearms.

What is so special about the police and military that makes them capable to use arms?

This is why I find it hard not to doubt the sincerity of Republicans (which you are according to your signature). I mean is that a serious question?

[LiberNovusAmericae]

Everyone should be pro-Second Amendment.

This ^^

[Tobleste]

Yes, people with values different than yours are stupid. We've been hearing this schtick for almost 2,000 posts now.

In this single context, not only are they stupid, they're also selfish to a deadly degree.

I didn't say they were stupid. I actually said the opposite. Telconi interpreted it that way but I blocked him precisely because of his interpretation of things (which is as polite as I can put that without breaking the rules).

I said they were selfish and I stand by that. No one has given a decent alternative. They want gun laws so much, they accept the human cost. This is repeated again and again among conservatives in America. They oppose attempts to address racism because they think it will hurt them, regardless of its benefit to the country as a whole. They oppose actions against climate change because they think it will hurt them even if it jeopardises the entire environment. They oppose actions against sexual assault because they think it will hurt them even if it leads to the country being governed by predators. Same with family separation at the border. Selfishness is the most obvious explanation. Regardless of whether the facts say the issue is 50-50 or entirely against them, they always choose the most selfish route.

The gun issue is the same. Even as America has a gun problem that makes the rest of the world either laugh or feel pity, they instead rant about gun control while doing practically nothing to prevent gun violence. They'll never change their minds regardless of the amount of casualties. Based on that, why aren't they selfish?

Also, before anyone (else) lazily says I'm criticising everyone I disagree with, this just applies to those with extreme right wing views (or right views by American standards). Conservatives in the UK and Germany are morally no different to me even if our politics differs. It's American reactionaries whose actions suggest they are fine with others suffering.

[Regal Georgia]

History shows that when the left wants to engage in propagande par le fait, laws don't factor in to their decision making. Modern Right Wing militia movements are the ones obsessed with the idea that everything they advocate has to be within the realm of the rule of law. This is why Modern Right Wing militias are a joke. They're all machismo, no action. Tacticool LARPers, the lot of them.

[The Black Party]

Militarize everyone lmao

[LiberNovusAmericae]

In this single context, not only are they stupid, they're also selfish to a deadly degree.

I didn't say they were stupid. I actually said the opposite. Telconi interpreted it that way but I blocked him precisely because of his interpretation of things (which is as polite as I can put that without breaking the rules).

I said they were selfish and I stand by that. No one has given a decent alternative. They want gun laws so much, they accept the human cost. This is repeated again and again among conservatives in America. They oppose attempts to address racism because they think it will hurt them, regardless of its benefit to the country as a whole. They oppose actions against climate change because they think it will hurt them even if it jeopardises the entire environment. They oppose actions against sexual assault because they think it will hurt them even if it leads to the country being governed by predators. Same with family separation at the border. Selfishness is the most obvious explanation. Regardless of whether the facts say the issue is 50-50 or entirely against them, they always choose the most selfish route.

Also, before anyone (else) lazily says I'm criticising everyone I disagree with, this just applies to those with extreme right wing views (or right views by American standards). Conservatives in the UK and Germany are morally no different to me even if our politics differs. It's American reactionaries who seem fine with others suffering.

I'm very pro-gun rights myself. If that makes me "selfish" in your eyes, I don't give a shit.

[Tobleste]

I didn't say they were stupid. I actually said the opposite. Telconi interpreted it that way but I blocked him precisely because of his interpretation of things (which is as polite as I can put that without breaking the rules).

I said they were selfish and I stand by that. No one has given a decent alternative. They want gun laws so much, they accept the human cost. This is repeated again and again among conservatives in America. They oppose attempts to address racism because they think it will hurt them, regardless of its benefit to the country as a whole. They oppose actions against climate change because they think it will hurt them even if it jeopardises the entire environment. They oppose actions against sexual assault because they think it will hurt them even if it leads to the country being governed by predators. Same with family separation at the border. Selfishness is the most obvious explanation. Regardless of whether the facts say the issue is 50-50 or entirely against them, they always choose the most selfish route.

Also, before anyone (else) lazily says I'm criticising everyone I disagree with, this just applies to those with extreme right wing views (or right views by American standards). Conservatives in the UK and Germany are morally no different to me even if our politics differs. It's American reactionaries who seem fine with others suffering.

I'm very pro-gun rights myself. If that makes me "selfish" in your eyes, I don't give a shit.

I don't care either. Just the next time someone says you're happy with people dying as long as you have access to guns, you might understand where they're coming from.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I'm very pro-gun rights myself. If that makes me "selfish" in your eyes, I don't give a shit.

I don't care either. Just the next time someone says you're happy with people dying as long as you have access to guns, you might understand where they're coming from.

Let's ban everything that offends you and live in the awesome dystopia of Demolition Man. No, I'm not going to appease you no matter what "creative" comment you can make about me, and I'm not sorry for wanting to live in a country with rights, and not governed by a pussy nanny state.

[The Chuck]

I still stand firm that if anyone comes for my not quite functional B.A.R. than they're going to have to pry it from my cold sue happy hands. (If for some reason firearms are outlawed, I'm certain a museum would love the donation). Also, making firearms illegal in the US would be difficult to enforce not only because of our gun culture but also the sheer size of our country.

[Bienenhalde]

Civilians should not have access to guns. Only the police and military should be allowed firearms.

What is so special about the police and military that makes them capable to use arms?

According to many political theorists, the state is supposed to have a monopoly on the legitimate use of force.