Leftist Militias: Should Liberals Be Pro-Second Amendment?

[The Knockout Gun Gals]

Trying to change it is like trying to convert Iran to Catholicism.

Sounds fun.

Iran to Zoroastrian would have been a more credible proposition.

[Ors Might]

The good that revolutions do often has very little to do with their successes. It’s to make reforms the best option available if such chaos is to be avoided in the future.

I would argue that, while wide access to firearms doesn’t guarantee a revolution, it does make any future revolutions much more viable.

I’m not entirely sure if widespread access to firearms would do as much harm as you imply. Merely having access to something that could cause harm is not the same as having the desire to cause harm, which is a societal/psychological issue. Restrictions on gun ownership seem, from my perspective, to be built on mostly fear and the unwillingness to address the real flaws within society.


Ah, still peddling the same sourceless nonsense. I imagine it’s easy to assert that it’s the presence of guns that cause violence, instead of violence being caused by a complex set of socio-economic issues, instead of treating the opposing position with any trace of nuance.

Why find sources for people who don't care for them? You've already decided your position based on a culture largely unique to America and I've decided mine based on what is obvious to the rest of the human race. No evidence will change your mind and some arguments (e.g. gun control opponents, Flat earthers) aren't nuanced. I'm happy living somewhere with little to no gun violence and you don't seem too bothered that millions of Americans do. At least not bothered enough to risk gun access. The gap isn't down to evidence. It's that gun access for gun violence is, imo, an appalling trade off. To millions of Americans, it's a bargain.

Oh spare me. What evidence have you ever produced for anyone in this debate? Almost immediately after people for some strange reason proved to not be easily convinced of positions counter to their own, you gave up and decided that the reason they disagreed with you was because they were illogical, instead of pondering whether or not you were unconvincing or just plain wrong.

[Lorkhan]

Since our neoliberal centrist government is bound to collapse, it only makes sense for people to seriously consider preparing for the inevitable conflict that will follow.

[Telconi]

Why find sources for people who don't care for them? You've already decided your position based on a culture largely unique to America and I've decided mine based on what is obvious to the rest of the human race. No evidence will change your mind and some arguments (e.g. gun control opponents, Flat earthers) aren't nuanced. I'm happy living somewhere with little to no gun violence and you don't seem too bothered that millions of Americans do. At least not bothered enough to risk gun access. The gap isn't down to evidence. It's that gun access for gun violence is, imo, an appalling trade off. To millions of Americans, it's a bargain.

Oh spare me. What evidence have you ever produced for anyone in this debate? Almost immediately after people for some strange reason proved to not be easily convinced of positions counter to their own, you gave up and decided that the reason they disagreed with you was because they were illogical, instead of pondering whether or not you were unconvincing or just plain wrong.

But clearly if such paragons of virtue as the Australians and British share your opinions, they magically become objective fact.

[Ors Might]

Oh spare me. What evidence have you ever produced for anyone in this debate? Almost immediately after people for some strange reason proved to not be easily convinced of positions counter to their own, you gave up and decided that the reason they disagreed with you was because they were illogical, instead of pondering whether or not you were unconvincing or just plain wrong.

But clearly if such paragons of virtue as the Australians and British share your opinions, they magically become objective fact.

We had a revolutionary war explicitly so we wouldn’t have to care what the Brits think. It’s my god given right as an American to tell all hot tea drinkers to jump into the river.

In all seriousness, it’s getting irritating when people hold up Britain and Australia as evidence that gun control works while ignoring the the fact that their rates of violence were already on the decline when they restricted access to guns.

[Tobleste]

Why find sources for people who don't care for them? You've already decided your position based on a culture largely unique to America and I've decided mine based on what is obvious to the rest of the human race. No evidence will change your mind and some arguments (e.g. gun control opponents, Flat earthers) aren't nuanced. I'm happy living somewhere with little to no gun violence and you don't seem too bothered that millions of Americans do. At least not bothered enough to risk gun access. The gap isn't down to evidence. It's that gun access for gun violence is, imo, an appalling trade off. To millions of Americans, it's a bargain.

Oh spare me. What evidence have you ever produced for anyone in this debate? Almost immediately after people for some strange reason proved to not be easily convinced of positions counter to their own, you gave up and decided that the reason they disagreed with you was because they were illogical, instead of pondering whether or not you were unconvincing or just plain wrong.

Not much on this site. I knew their reasons for disagreeing with me long before I came on here. Hard as this is for you to imagine, I do exist outside this site.

[Licana]

Besides, on this topic, half this site is beyond the realms of the reasonable anyway.

"Everyone's so stupid. Everyone but me."

[Washington Resistance Army]

Oh spare me. What evidence have you ever produced for anyone in this debate? Almost immediately after people for some strange reason proved to not be easily convinced of positions counter to their own, you gave up and decided that the reason they disagreed with you was because they were illogical, instead of pondering whether or not you were unconvincing or just plain wrong.

Not much on this site. I knew their reasons for disagreeing with me long before I came on here. Hard as this is for you to imagine, I do exist outside this site.

This is an absurdly stupid position to take. You don't know anyones reasons for disagreeing with you because you never bother to actually ask anyone. I hate to break it to you but you don't actually know everything.

[Ors Might]

Oh spare me. What evidence have you ever produced for anyone in this debate? Almost immediately after people for some strange reason proved to not be easily convinced of positions counter to their own, you gave up and decided that the reason they disagreed with you was because they were illogical, instead of pondering whether or not you were unconvincing or just plain wrong.

Not much on this site. I knew their reasons for disagreeing with me long before I came on here. Hard as this is for you to imagine, I do exist outside this site.

So you have evidence..but refuse to use it to support your arguments? And your reasoning for this is that you knew the reasons why people you’ve never met before disagree with you? Sounds like a cop out. A pretty gutless one at that.

[Tobleste]

But clearly if such paragons of virtue as the Australians and British share your opinions, they magically become objective fact.

We had a revolutionary war explicitly so we wouldn’t have to care what the Brits think. It’s my god given right as an American to tell all hot tea drinkers to jump into the river.

In all seriousness, it’s getting irritating when people hold up Britain and Australia as evidence that gun control works while ignoring the the fact that their rates of violence were already on the decline when they restricted access to guns.

I didn't mention Britain and Australia. I think I mentioned every other country on earth but I suppose the revolution means you get to dismiss evidence produced by the other 7.2 billion people that exist if you find it inconvenient.

Gun advocates in the US are fanatical on the subject. I could dedicate my life to arguing with them and the only opinion that would change is my opinion of them (which gets worse after every shooting).

Seriously, why should I bother arguing with you guys on this subject? I'm happy living somewhere with no mass shootings and few guns. Presumably you guys wouldn't be. You can keep your guns, I'll take my higher life expectancy and lower murder rates and we'll all be happy (minus the relatives of the people who are killed by gun violence but I guess they can jump into the river with the British).

[Licana]

I didn't mention Britain and Australia. I think I mentioned every other country on earth but I suppose the revolution means you get to dismiss evidence produced by the other 7.2 billion people that exist if you find it inconvenient.

>every other country on the earth
>most of which are more violent than america
swing and a miss

[Ors Might]

We had a revolutionary war explicitly so we wouldn’t have to care what the Brits think. It’s my god given right as an American to tell all hot tea drinkers to jump into the river.

In all seriousness, it’s getting irritating when people hold up Britain and Australia as evidence that gun control works while ignoring the the fact that their rates of violence were already on the decline when they restricted access to guns.

I didn't mention Britain and Australia. I think I mentioned every other country on earth but I suppose the revolution means you get to dismiss evidence produced by the other 7.2 billion people that exist if you find it inconvenient.

Gun advocates in the US are fanatical on the subject. I could dedicate my life to arguing with them and the only opinion that would change is my opinion of them (which gets worse after every shooting).

Seriously, why should I bother arguing with you guys on this subject? I'm happy living somewhere with no mass shootings and few guns. Presumably you guys wouldn't be. You can keep your guns, I'll take my higher life expectancy and lower murder rates and we'll all be happy (minus the relatives of the people who are killed by gun violence but I guess they can jump into the river with the British).

You realize that the odds of dying in a mass shooting anywhere in the US is still very low, yeah? Or do you have to ignore that fact when you to dismiss an entire country as illogical?

[The Galactic Liberal Democracy]

It's a forum for general discussion. That's it. Besides, on this topic, half all of this site is beyond the realms of the reasonable anyway.

I fixed it.

[Tobleste]

I didn't mention Britain and Australia. I think I mentioned every other country on earth but I suppose the revolution means you get to dismiss evidence produced by the other 7.2 billion people that exist if you find it inconvenient.

Gun advocates in the US are fanatical on the subject. I could dedicate my life to arguing with them and the only opinion that would change is my opinion of them (which gets worse after every shooting).

Seriously, why should I bother arguing with you guys on this subject? I'm happy living somewhere with no mass shootings and few guns. Presumably you guys wouldn't be. You can keep your guns, I'll take my higher life expectancy and lower murder rates and we'll all be happy (minus the relatives of the people who are killed by gun violence but I guess they can jump into the river with the British).

You realize that the odds of dying in a mass shooting anywhere in the US is still very low, yeah? Or do you have to ignore that fact when you to dismiss an entire country as illogical?

I didn't dismiss an entire country as illogical. Just you guys. At this point, I'll leave you to imagine what I'd say and you can argue against that seeing as that's basically what you're doing anyway and it'd save me time.

[Tobleste]

It's a forum for general discussion. That's it. Besides, on this topic, half all of this site is beyond the realms of the reasonable anyway.

I fixed it.

There's 10% that are great (I'm not including myself obviously).

[Ors Might]

You realize that the odds of dying in a mass shooting anywhere in the US is still very low, yeah? Or do you have to ignore that fact when you to dismiss an entire country as illogical?

I didn't dismiss an entire country as illogical. Just you guys. At this point, I'll leave you to imagine what I'd say and you can argue against that seeing as that's basically what you're doing anyway and it'd save me time.

I can’t argue against anything, considering you’ve never made a single argument. Just a bunch of assertions.

[Chan Island]

The moment liberals start mass mobilising militias and getting guns is the moment you know civil war in the US is inevitable. So... probably no?

[Telconi]

The moment liberals start mass mobilising militias and getting guns is the moment you know civil war in the US is inevitable. So... probably no?

Why do you say that?

[Farnhamia]

Also, if you think what I am doing is baiting you, then please feel free to report me. Moderation is right here, for your convenience.

Okay, you deserve it. I’m going to hit you with some of the most cancerous shit on the Internet.

Yeah, I don't think so, not here anyway.

*** Warned for flaming, trolling, Mods as weapons ... ***

[Settrah]

Liberals aren't leftists. . . but yes, many of us anticapitalists will need to become armed and properly trained to defend the revolution against the state. This applies extra for LGBT people and PoC.

We revolutionary socialists have known this for decades.

And yet they don't do anything about it.

Almost like they don't take their own revolution remotely seriously.

[Fartsniffage]

Liberals aren't leftists. . . but yes, many of us anticapitalists will need to become armed and properly trained to defend the revolution against the state. This applies extra for LGBT people and PoC.

We revolutionary socialists have known this for decades.

And yet they don't do anything about it.

Almost like they don't take their own revolution remotely seriously.

How dare people want to change society without shooting anyone...

[Telconi]

And yet they don't do anything about it.

Almost like they don't take their own revolution remotely seriously.

How dare people want to change society without shooting anyone...

They're perfectly welcome to do so, but then they aren't revolutionary socialists are they?

[Fartsniffage]

How dare people want to change society without shooting anyone...

They're perfectly welcome to do so, but then they aren't revolutionary socialists are they?

Not all revolutions are bloody.

[Telconi]

They're perfectly welcome to do so, but then they aren't revolutionary socialists are they?

Not all revolutions are bloody.

All socialist ones are.

[Settrah]

They're perfectly welcome to do so, but then they aren't revolutionary socialists are they?

Not all revolutions are bloody.

The transition from capitalism to socialism and communism has to be violent.

It's class warfare.

What are the proletariat going to do, ask the bourgoisie nicely?

Clarification, I'm not a leftist, or socialist. I think Marx is an outdated hack, I think communism is a terrible theory in terms of pragmatism, I think obsession and focus on class warfare is counter productive to a society's economic and technological growth (among other things), and emphasis on historical materialism is way overzealous and forced as a reductionist way to explain (and provide blame for) way too much of the world...

... but yeah, to crush capitalism and the state, to practice class warfare and rise up against the ruling class, to tear down the very fabric of what undermines all areas of society, these are all things that revolutionary socialists cannot do without a bloodshed.

But hey, if they ever put down the keyboard and shift their ass, good luck to them.