The best that men can get..

[Costa Fierro]

I have yet to see women attracted to non-masculine men, too.

Someone doesn't follow the K-pop fandoms. Lots of gals who love pretty twinks in make up in there.

Oh boy, someone doesn't know modern day South Korea.

[Arlenton]

Arlenton did just (apparently) unironically cite the whole "alpha male" and "beta male" stuff so...

What the fuck constitute either, anyways?

Beta = better, according to razor salesmen.

[Liriena]

Arlenton did just (apparently) unironically cite the whole "alpha male" and "beta male" stuff so...

What the fuck constitute either, anyways?

As far as humans go? Nothing. It was a deeply, irredeemably flawed categorization that a researcher wrongfully applied to wolves and male chauvinists, in their endless quest to reaffirm their masculine superiority while being hilariously terrible at science, appropriated it without reading the massive fine print.

[Galloism]

In an unjust world, we always make these trade offs to survive as comfortably as we can for as little effort and risk as possible, but that doesn't change the fact that the actual, broader state of affairs is unjust and hurtful.

I mean, you just justified sexist men being sexist in order to survive as comfortably as they can with as little effort and risk as possible. They know they will get shit from women and men both for treating men and women equally, so they act sexist to live as comfortably as possible for as little effort and risk as possible.

[Liriena]

Someone doesn't follow the K-pop fandoms. Lots of gals who love pretty twinks in make up in there.

Oh boy, someone doesn't know modern day South Korea.

Doesn't change the fact that plenty of women around the world are quite vocal about the fact that, yes, they do find pretty, non-masculine men attractive.

[Arlenton]

What the fuck constitute either, anyways?

As far as humans go? Nothing. It was a deeply, irredeemably flawed categorization that a researcher wrongfully applied to wolves and male chauvinists, in their endless quest to reaffirm their masculine superiority while being hilariously terrible at science, appropriated it without reading the massive fine print.

Are you saying there are no "beta" and "alpha" males/females?

[New haven america]

And, of course, daily reminder that what data we have suggests that women are the primary gender role enforcers of both men and women, and there's not a mention of this at all - women are portrayed only as victims.

I have yet to see women attracted to non-masculine men, too. Maybe on TV?

*Points to the entire Kpop fandom*

Hell, I think like, half the women I know prefer traditionally "Weaker" Asian guys over traditionally "Stronger" White and Black guys, so...

[Arlenton]

They seem to enjoy it more than the alternative though. According to both the source and anecdotally.

That doesn't mean it should be the one and only, unchanging, eternally valid way of doing things.

In an unjust world, we always make these trade offs to survive as comfortably as we can for as little effort and risk as possible, but that doesn't change the fact that the actual, broader state of affairs is unjust and hurtful.

I haven't come out of the closet to a lot of people, even though I believe, as a matter of principle and as a way to be my best self, that I must, because right now not saying anything is the most immediately comfortable alternative. That doesn't change the fact that, as comfortable as it is, it's still a flawed status quo that causes me harm.

The same can be said for me + many other males. This system is the best at the moment.

This "better" system being proposed is not.

What system do you think would be best to everyone?

[New haven america]

As far as humans go? Nothing. It was a deeply, irredeemably flawed categorization that a researcher wrongfully applied to wolves and male chauvinists, in their endless quest to reaffirm their masculine superiority while being hilariously terrible at science, appropriated it without reading the massive fine print.

Are you saying there are no "beta" and "alpha" males/females?

There aren't.

Even the researcher who invented the terms says so.

[Liriena]

As far as humans go? Nothing. It was a deeply, irredeemably flawed categorization that a researcher wrongfully applied to wolves and male chauvinists, in their endless quest to reaffirm their masculine superiority while being hilariously terrible at science, appropriated it without reading the massive fine print.

Are you saying there are no "beta" and "alpha" males/females?

Precisely.

[Liriena]

In an unjust world, we always make these trade offs to survive as comfortably as we can for as little effort and risk as possible, but that doesn't change the fact that the actual, broader state of affairs is unjust and hurtful.

I mean, you just justified sexist men being sexist in order to survive as comfortably as they can with as little effort and risk as possible. They know they will get shit from women and men both for treating men and women equally, so they act sexist to live as comfortably as possible for as little effort and risk as possible.

...what?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

Someone doesn't follow the K-pop fandoms. Lots of gals who love pretty twinks in make up in there.

Oh boy, someone doesn't know modern day South Korea.

Hit or miss, I guess she took the kids, uh?

What the fuck constitute either, anyways?

Beta = better, according to razor salesmen.

What characteristics are necessary to label a man as either an "alpha" or a "beta", though?

What the fuck constitute either, anyways?

As far as humans go? Nothing. It was a deeply, irredeemably flawed categorization that a researcher wrongfully applied to wolves and male chauvinists, in their endless quest to reaffirm their masculine superiority while being hilariously terrible at science, appropriated it without reading the massive fine print.

Masculinity and feminity are far more nuanced than just black and white.

Men can have feminine attributes just like how women can have masculine attributes, the quantity varying from person to person.

Oh boy, someone doesn't know modern day South Korea.

Doesn't change the fact that plenty of women around the world are quite vocal about the fact that, yes, they do find pretty, non-masculine men attractive.

Hell, many men find feminine men attractive...it's even a whole sub-genre of homosexuality, for Christ's sake!

[Liriena]

I have yet to see women attracted to non-masculine men, too. Maybe on TV?

*Points to the entire Kpop fandom*

Hell, I think like, half the women I know prefer traditionally "Weaker" Asian guys over traditionally "Stronger" White and Black guys, so...

Also, it must needs be remarked that, at one point, every girl (and sometimes their mothers) wanted to bang Bill Kaulitz far more than his conventionally masculine twin.

[Arlenton]

I have yet to see women attracted to non-masculine men, too. Maybe on TV?

*Points to the entire Kpop fandom*

Hell, I think like, half the women I know prefer traditionally "Weaker" Asian guys over traditionally "Stronger" White and Black guys, so...

I don't necessarily equate masculinity with who is the "strongest". In fact I'm pretty slim and not muscular at all. I think it's more of a mental rather than physical thing. Just acting masculine is masculine.

[Webus]

And, of course, daily reminder that what data we have suggests that women are the primary gender role enforcers of both men and women, and there's not a mention of this at all - women are portrayed only as victims.

I have yet to see women attracted to non-masculine men, too. Maybe on TV?

But I'm sure someone will go on and on about how that's actually better.

yeah, lesbians don't exist.

[Arlenton]

Are you saying there are no "beta" and "alpha" males/females?

Precisely.

I'd beg to differ but I can't science.

I do see "alpha" and "beta" types in our society. I can't believe its not a thing in some way or another.

[Galloism]

I mean, you just justified sexist men being sexist in order to survive as comfortably as they can with as little effort and risk as possible. They know they will get shit from women and men both for treating men and women equally, so they act sexist to live as comfortably as possible for as little effort and risk as possible.

...what?

If men do not act sexist against other men, which is what benevolent sexism towards really is (refusing to treat men with the same high level of treatment you treat women), they get shit on by both women and men. The science suggests that failure to be sexist is viewed as being sexist by default.

Two studies demonstrated that lay people misperceive the relationship between hostile sexism
(HS) and benevolent sexism (BS) in men, but not in women. While men's endorsement of BS is viewed as
a sign of a univalently positive attitude towards women, their rejection of BS is perceived as a sign of
univalent sexist antipathy. Low BS men were judged as more hostile towards women than high BS men,
suggesting that perceivers inferred that low BS men were indeed misogynists. Negative evaluations were
reduced when men's rejection of BS was attributed to egalitarian values, supporting the hypothesis that
ambiguity about the motivations for low BS in men was partially responsible for the attribution of hostile
sexist attitudes to low BS men.

Now, if in an unjust world, we have to make tradeoffs to live comfortably as we can for as little effort and risk as possible, there's one way to work towards that goal:

Be sexist. Women and men will both like you more and treat you better, and, statistically, women will be more attracted to you.

That's a pretty fucked up reality, but it is one of the realities in our unjust world.

[Liriena]

Beta = better, according to razor salesmen.

What characteristics are necessary to label a man as either an "alpha" or a "beta", though?

Apparently, if there's a picture of you smiling with your mouth wide open that's "beta"??????

Also, whenever someone unironically talks about "alpha" and "beta" males, my mind immediately goes to this stuff.

[Arlenton]

I have yet to see women attracted to non-masculine men, too. Maybe on TV?

But I'm sure someone will go on and on about how that's actually better.

yeah, lesbians don't exist.

In this context, I'm referring to straight women.

[New haven america]

*Points to the entire Kpop fandom*

Hell, I think like, half the women I know prefer traditionally "Weaker" Asian guys over traditionally "Stronger" White and Black guys, so...

I don't necessarily equate masculinity with who is the "strongest". In fact I'm pretty slim and not muscular at all. I think it's more of a mental rather than physical thing. Just acting masculine is masculine.

Acting masculine is a physical thing. Acting out anything is physical.

But fine, what pray tell, is masculine to you?

[Western Vale Confederacy]

What characteristics are necessary to label a man as either an "alpha" or a "beta", though?

Apparently, if there's a picture of you smiling with your mouth wide open that's "beta"??????

Also, whenever someone unironically talks about "alpha" and "beta" males, my mind immediately goes to this stuff.

Facebook has tainted my mind, because any mention of the alpha-beta concept either makes me think of the smiling bearded soyboy or the Virgin vs. Chad memes.

[Liriena]

...what?

If men do not act sexist against other men, which is what benevolent sexism towards really is (refusing to treat men with the same high level of treatment you treat women), they get shit on by both women and men. The science suggests that failure to be sexist is viewed as being sexist by default.

Two studies demonstrated that lay people misperceive the relationship between hostile sexism
(HS) and benevolent sexism (BS) in men, but not in women. While men's endorsement of BS is viewed as
a sign of a univalently positive attitude towards women, their rejection of BS is perceived as a sign of
univalent sexist antipathy. Low BS men were judged as more hostile towards women than high BS men,
suggesting that perceivers inferred that low BS men were indeed misogynists. Negative evaluations were
reduced when men's rejection of BS was attributed to egalitarian values, supporting the hypothesis that
ambiguity about the motivations for low BS in men was partially responsible for the attribution of hostile
sexist attitudes to low BS men.

Now, if in an unjust world, we have to make tradeoffs to live comfortably as we can for as little effort and risk as possible, there's one way to work towards that goal:

Be sexist. Women and men will both like you more and treat you better, and, statistically, women will be more attracted to you.

That's a pretty fucked up reality, but it is one of the realities in our unjust world.

...at no point was I trying to argue that, since the world is unjust, we might as well enjoy its "benevolent" injustices and do nothing about it. I was trying to argue the opposite. Dafuq, dude?

[FelrikTheDeleted]

What characteristics are necessary to label a man as either an "alpha" or a "beta", though?

Apparently, if there's a picture of you smiling with your mouth wide open that's "beta"??????

Also, whenever someone unironically talks about "alpha" and "beta" males, my mind immediately goes to this stuff.

It’s a meme. Also, it’s doesn’t mean you’re ‘beta’, it’s just that the people who are considered ‘beta’ typically do it. It also just really strange.

[Galloism]

If men do not act sexist against other men, which is what benevolent sexism towards really is (refusing to treat men with the same high level of treatment you treat women), they get shit on by both women and men. The science suggests that failure to be sexist is viewed as being sexist by default.



Now, if in an unjust world, we have to make tradeoffs to live comfortably as we can for as little effort and risk as possible, there's one way to work towards that goal:

Be sexist. Women and men will both like you more and treat you better, and, statistically, women will be more attracted to you.

That's a pretty fucked up reality, but it is one of the realities in our unjust world.

...at no point was I trying to argue that, since the world is unjust, we might as well enjoy its "benevolent" injustices and do nothing about it. I was trying to argue the opposite. Dafuq, dude?

Oh, it came across as you defending the women who prefer sexist men because they're sexist and they're trading off the benefits of sexism for the downsides.

You were actually criticizing them? It didn't come off that way. Especially with you saying you do the same by not coming out (which I don't see how it's connected - that's your choice, but your sexuality is no one's business but your own unless you want it to be.)

[New haven america]

*Points to the entire Kpop fandom*

Hell, I think like, half the women I know prefer traditionally "Weaker" Asian guys over traditionally "Stronger" White and Black guys, so...

Also, it must needs be remarked that, at one point, every girl (and sometimes their mothers) wanted to bang Bill Kaulitz far more than his conventionally masculine twin.

And Prince, can't forget Prince.